Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jdasnt3 Dec 04, 2014 7:07:04	One of our players is using a fighter. He wants to use second wind indefinitely during the campaign without ever relying on HD to heal after a short rest.  Can second wind be used to heal a fighter to his/her fullest over time during normal non-combat situations?  The rule seems simple enough.  However, during a recent game, the party was traveling for a day and resting in a coach. He and the party had recently had a fight and were down HP.  The rest of the party used HD while the fighter used second wind after every short rest to regain all of his HP and spend no HD.   Thank you in advance for any advice.
#2 Macv12 Dec 04, 2014 7:17:05	It's not really a "second" wind at the point. He's not Wolverine. Tell him it works once per combat as a "suck it up and keep fighting, soldier" morale ability, and he can't just spam it outside combat regardless of rule technicalities, then savor his salty tears if he doesn't like not being Wolverine. You're perfectly within your rights to just declare that if you think his use of the feature is bringing down the experience somehow.
#3 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 04, 2014 7:18:26	Second Wind can be used, then a short rest taken (with, or without spending hit dice for more healing), and then Second Wind can be used again and the process repeated.   This means that, should the fighter really feel like it, he can spend hour after hour using and recharging his Second Wind... though I would expect the rest of such a fighter's party to get tired of waiting around wasting time, and would move on toward the completion of their goals - with, or without the fighter.   Put simply, it's incredibly inefficient to do this, and is basically foiled by nothing more than the fighter character having an actual life and things to do besides rest and second wind.
#4 jdasnt3 Dec 04, 2014 7:20:42	I guess I could state that the trigger of second win is to protect from harm.  Bonus action rules state that the action cannot be taken without the trigger.
(Reply to #3) jdasnt3	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#6 jdasnt3 Dec 04, 2014 7:26:05	Macv12 wrote:
#7 Sorxores Dec 04, 2014 7:39:46	Second wind can only be used 1/short rest. a short rest take 1 hours. So how is your fighter expect to use second wind to keep at full health between fights?   Unless you are walking between the town and the dungeon, and the fighter decide to sit in the caravan and rest letting the rest of the party protect the caravan then he could use it every hour, but the party might get pissed at him for not helping protecting the caravan. But inside the dungeon, if your player are trying to get 1 hour short rest after each fight, maybe you should send some wandering monster to attack them and disturb the short rest.   Then let's do some math here: Second wind heal for 1d10+fgt level. The fighter get 6+Con HP every level. let's assume 16 Consitution for a +3 bonus for a total of 9Hp per level (13 at level 1). At level 1 then yes it possible, a single Second wind could heal him to full without using HD, but then he cannot use it during combat so he lost one of the few combat healing ability he got (bonus action to heal 1d10+fgt level is stronger then an action to drink a healin potion 2d4+2 IMO) that doesn't spend the cleric healing spell.   As you level up, second wind become less and less efficient, and a one point, there is not enough hour in a day to fully heal you back to full HP (specially when a short rest is only 8 hours and give you back half your max HD)   Maybe you want to explain to him that Second wind is less efficient then HD healing, and is best used during combat as an emergency mechanism. There is NOTHING powerfull about healing 1d10+fgt level per hour and loosing your in combat ability. If he insist to do it this way let him, make sure to disrupt is rest once or twice and focus damage on him, eventually he will learn that wasting a combat heal out of combat is a WASTE and STUPID.   Even if he want the wolverine healing factor feeling, HD will do a much better healing factor mechanism then Second wind.
(Reply to #7) jdasnt3	Sorxores wrote:
#9 CahPahkah Dec 04, 2014 7:51:11	jdasnt3 wrote:
#10 jdasnt3 Dec 04, 2014 7:54:32	Thank you all for your excellent answers and insight.  As we had in the beginning during 1978, this game is always open for interpretation.  We will use your advice and discuss what works best for us.  I'm the DM, but will be suggesting that we apply the rule to only allow 2nd wind during situations that require combat and the threat of harm as the trigger per the bonus action rule.  We play a gritty sort of campaign and have experienced every manifestation of the game over the decades. We're really loving this version!
(Reply to #9) jdasnt3	CahPahkah wrote:
#12 OnlyNerdStuff Dec 04, 2014 8:17:44	It might be worth noting that Mike Mearls specifically asserted Second Wind is available outside of combat.   https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/504362764911906816   Moreover, as CahPahkah indicated, it's simply a class feature which the fighter is just as entitled to use as the 'expertise' feature of the bard that brings his persuasion checks to nigh mystical levels outside of combat.   Clearly, no one should tell you that you're having fun wrong but it's possible the other players might be relieved at having to expend fewer resources healing him rather than annoyed he's so dreadfuly overpowered that they need a feinting couch to express the true height of their dismay.
#13 Sorxores Dec 04, 2014 9:06:52	jdasnt3 wrote:
#14 colemcm Dec 04, 2014 9:33:17	As many have already said, there's no reason to punish him for trying to use a class feature. Also, I'd recommend focusing less on trying to force him to play a certain way. If he wants to try to sit around for hours to heal miniscule amounts of hps, then that's his choice. The player gets to choose how his character acts. However, there's nothing that says he'll actually be able to do that. The DM gets to choose how the rest of the world acts, so there's no reason to assume that he's going to get the time he needs to rest up. Eventually he'll get that he can't just rest all of the time and you won't have to be heavy-handed to get him there.
(Reply to #5) AaronOfBarbaria	jdasnt3 wrote:
#16 Noctaem Dec 04, 2014 9:54:15	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#17 Slyck314 Dec 04, 2014 10:19:21	If your party has that many opportunities to take short rests then all abilities tied to short rests will seem stronger then for other groups. I would not that short rest do require resting, travelling or engaging in social encounters is not resting.
#18 Saelorn Dec 04, 2014 10:35:21	OnlyNerdStuff wrote:
#19 Nachturnus Dec 04, 2014 10:44:58	This seems like something that you'd want to decide amongst your players.  If you have a Playgroup that's been together as long as yours has, then it's likely you have a lot of specifc ways you like to play. I don't know how much help we can be for you. All I can say is that, if your fighter is taking sufficient rests to use the ability, he's playing by the rules. Whether or not you want to allow that, modify that, or adjust that is all your call. All I can say is that he's going by whats written in the big red/orangey book.
#20 OoftaMeg Dec 04, 2014 11:24:04	There's nothing wrong with a fighter using their second wind this way, but he does run a risk.  If the party is unexpectedly ambushed, he may not have a second wind when he needs it most.   Healing is pretty generous in 5E unless you use one of the alternate healing options.  As long as you leave short rests at an hour, I don't see an issue.
(Reply to #15) Ashrym	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#22 DungeonKrusher Dec 04, 2014 12:38:05	If you're in a dungeon setting and you're waiting hours for the fighter to rest, use second wind, rest, use second wind, and the party is suffering from -- or annoyed by -- the sitting around, the DM should chuck in some random monsters.   However, if you're able to take a few minutes to recoup as a group, why not just say "you can rest safely for three hour (three consecutive short rests) and the fighter can use X amount of Second Winds."? It seems to accomodate the rules and limit the session's distraction down to one sentence. Unless there is an exigent danger or timeframe required, is this a bad option for you?   However, this is the same sort of sigh-worthy behavior that I dislike other editions for: stopping an adventure for healing is logical (and good for the group) but it can be awe-uninspiring.
(Reply to #21) jdasnt3	Ashrym wrote:
#24 Saelorn Dec 04, 2014 13:31:31	jdasnt3 wrote:
#25 Psikerlord Dec 04, 2014 13:44:03	jdasnt3 wrote:
#26 Slyck314 Dec 04, 2014 14:12:00	At that kinda rate, if you had a life cleric everyone would be healed to full all the time. And a worlock would seem like the most badass caster of all. This seems more of an issue about pacing then one classes features over another.
#27 Saelorn Dec 04, 2014 14:40:23	Slyck314 wrote:
#28 Noon Dec 04, 2014 16:29:12	Get the feeling some people just want to get annoyed at the fighter player over something that doesn't actually matter.   Possibly because the fighter player mentions it in an annoying way in real life - I've experienced those players - who are doing something that's legitimate by the rules, but have to talk about it in a really irritating way.
#29 DungeonKrusher Dec 04, 2014 20:40:26	jdasnt3 wrote:
#30 Macv12 Dec 04, 2014 22:45:30	By the way, you can't take more than one long rest per 24 hours. So how many short rests constitute a long one and how that impacts Second Wind spamming doesn't matter in the OP's case.   The game already has a way to heal on a short rest. Everyone has it. Your body can only take so much stress in a given time, and only has so much power to recover, so you have a limited number of Hit Dice each day to do that with. In-universe, what does Second Wind represent? Like I said before, the character isn't Wolverine. Choosing to be a Fighter is not a metaphysical decision that the character literally makes, it just represents them being hardier than a Monk, more combat-focused than a Ranger, etc. They don't gain the magical ability to recover from more wounds than anyone else. Their recovery rate is still approximately proportional to their HP to the same degree as everyone else.   Second Wind is a decent source of HP that will ultimately require less HD expenditure from the Fighter than other characters, so you're not gimping the fighter by not letting them use it in this rare corner case. They're good at fighting, not lounging around in a cart and stitching their bones back together faster or more often than other people. If the DM construes Second Wind as a once-per-combat ability to pick themselves up by the bootstraps, as indeed seems to be the spirit of the rules, he's justified in ruling that way. It's a flavor thing, not a balance thing.
#31 DungeonKrusher Dec 04, 2014 23:17:23	Reading the text, it says "on your turn" which indicates a combat-only power. I know there was mention of Mearls saying it was available outside of combat, but if I were running a game it would be only for combat. But, aside from that, it just *feels* like a combat power, not a resting-up power.   Geez, I'm flipflopping on this!
#32 Saelorn Dec 05, 2014 0:18:13	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #32) DungeonKrusher	Saelorn wrote:
#34 Saelorn Dec 05, 2014 0:51:16	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #34) Macv12	Saelorn wrote:
#36 Noon Dec 05, 2014 1:34:39	Macv12, is there something about this that is like the player is kicking puppies, for you?   What is the taboo that is being crossed?
#37 Macv12 Dec 05, 2014 5:45:53	Lol. I hope I didn't come off as that against it. I just said if the DM doesn't think the feature can be used that way, they're justified in ruling that it can't be. I would rule this way too. It comes off as an exploit (albeit one with almost no mechanical benefit) to pop second winds repeatedly during an extended down time. I would yield to a player with an argument for why it makes sense in-universe for their character to recover in that way, but as-is I think it's limited to once per intense engagement (combat, fell in some traps, etc). Like I said before, it's more about immersion/flavor than taking away toys.
#38 Saelorn Dec 05, 2014 10:58:04	Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #38) El_Condoro	Saelorn wrote:
(Reply to #38) DungeonKrusher	Saelorn wrote:
(Reply to #39) DungeonKrusher	El_Condoro wrote:
#42 Razintarr Dec 07, 2014 9:40:03	Terribly inefficient after the first few levels. At third level, after a crueling combat, he can either regain 1d10+3 hp's using Second Wind after his short rest, or 3x(1d10+con) through using HD. After the first hour of rest his party that all used their HD will be ready to go, making the fighter that wants to rest another hour to regain his use of Second Wind look like a lazy bum.   Plus, in the examply stated, the players travelled in a couch for a day. I wouldn't count that as a short rest, but as a long rest (unless the road was so wobbly sleep would be impossable), meaning that everyone regained all hp's.     Even if it is a problem, it will solve itself within a few levels of play.
(Reply to #42) Baphogoat	Razintarr wrote: