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| #1mykesfreeAug 04, 2015 10:27:00 | Hi Quick question about the Shape Change Spell and the CR 11 Archmage in the Monster Manual.
The archmage is a level 18 spell caster. If we look at the spell description of Shape Change, can the Archmage shapechange himself into a CR 17 Monster like the Adult Red Dragon, or do we use the Archmages CR rating instead of his level?
Spell description:
(a jade circlet worth at least 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head before you cast the spell) You assume the form of a different creature for the duration. The new form can be any creature with a challenge rating equal to your level or lower. The creature can’t be a construct or an undead, and you must have seen the sort of creature at least once. You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature, If the creature has the same proficiency as you, and the bonus listed in its statistics is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus in place of yours. You can’t use any legendary actions or lair actions of the new form. You assume the hit points and Hit Dice of the new form. When you revert to your normal, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. If you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hitpoints, you aren’t knocked unconscious. You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so. You can’t use any special senses you have (for example, darkvision) unless your new form also has that sense. You can only speak if the creature can normally speak. When you transform, you choose whether your equipment falls to the ground, merges into the new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal. The DM determines whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change shape or size to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge into your new form. Equipment that merges has no effect in that state. During this spell’s duration, you can use your action to assume a different form following the same restrictions and rules for the original form, with one exception: if your new form has more hit pints than your current one, your hit points remain at their current value. |
| #2YunruAug 04, 2015 10:41:08 | I know there's a lot to read, but it's literally the second sentence:
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| #3Xeviat-DMAug 04, 2015 11:13:27 | Worse, it would be a dragon and then a wizard; but isn't shapechange a concentration spell? So the wizard could turn into a tough dragon, but they'll probably lose the form after a volley of attacks from the players.
That's one reason I dislike the current shapechanging rules for PCs. |
| (Reply to #2)mykesfree |
that is my point the Archmage is an 18th level caster. So I am asking if by the rules you can do it. But it is a concentration spell so maybe it evens out. Still the Dragon has a tremendous con save. Maybe it is better for players then for Monsters since a player doesn't take as many hits as a monster does.
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| #5Xeviat-DMAug 05, 2015 14:34:19 | Concentration might make it fair. Hard to tell without play testing it.
This is why monsters using player spells is problematic. |
| #6mykesfreeAug 05, 2015 14:49:18 | I know people complain about the Concentration mechanic, but it seems like the grand unification theory of Spell casting in D&D.
Anybody else with experience the Shapechange problem yet that can comment about it? |
| #7Tempest_StormwindAug 05, 2015 15:42:30 | No direct experience with it yet, but there is another dimension here. 5e doesn't use special rules for identifying spells as they're being cast - and Counterspell is a thing. DC 19 is pretty tricky to make off of raw Intelligence, but it's doable (35% success rate with max Intelligence, assuming no advantage or other special buffs), and Shapechange is certainly one of those spells I'd attempt to counter (especially since he only has one slot of that level - but expect him to try to counter it right back). You can also try this with Dispel Magic once it gets up and running, with exactly the same check. In this case, switching from the archmage's default Time Stop to Shapechange is actually better for the party, because his action is already spoken for during the round he polymorphs (giving you a 1-round window to dispel the dragon-shape before pain's inbound; remember that shapechange doesn't give you the dragon's legendary actions). Neither Counterspell nor Dispel Magic is made any harder by the dragon's higher stats - you're still trying to break a 9th level spell either way.
By the way, this is also one of the places where having a bard on the team is amazing, especially if the team knows it's about to fight a powerful spellcaster (which is the situation here, I think - the questionable part is going "Surprise, the wizard is actually a dragon!"). Around the point the archmage should show up (~12th level party or so), a bard can reasonably apply +1d10 and advantage to your own spellcaster's spellcasting ability checks (costing the bard only one inspiration die and a 2nd level concentration spell) which collectively raises the chances of a counterspell or dispel working to a whopping 84%. Yes, it takes teamwork, but that's kind of the point - and the payoff is cancelling your foe's deadly 9th level spell with one or two 3rd level spells instead. |
| #8JohnnyBlaiseAug 10, 2015 10:52:00 | It's funny, when I read the topic of this thread, I thought it was going to discuss turning yourself (or a buddy) into an archmage, to, for example, refresh your spell slots.
Now that I see you are going the opposite way, WOW, it's even better! A CR 11 creature that turns himself into a CR 18 creature! That's amazing! So four of these was a challenging fight already, but now they all have triple the hit points and a breath weapon!!!! Well done at pointing out a very obvious gap in the rules.
PS: this is now EVEN MORE obnoxious for a PC to cast. I turn myself into an archmage (CR 11) with a scroll of shapechange (as soon as I can buy such a thing). Then using the archmage spell list, I turn myself into a DemiLich!!!! |
| #9MechatarrasqueAug 10, 2015 14:17:29 | I am pretty sure that if you tried to polymorph into an archmage, you would just become an average member of his/her race:
You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait.
Also, it can't be undead, so no demilich:
The creature can’t be a construct or an undead, and you must have seen the sort of creature at least once.
Also, I am not sure an ancient dragon is an "average example of that creature"--you are really transforming into a dragon--it does leave the question of what is the appropriate age category of an average dragon?
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| #10JohnnyBlaiseAug 14, 2015 17:12:42 | Sorry I was thinking true polymorph, no such restrictions.
"Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or theobject into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent. Shapechangers aren’t affected by this spell. An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isn’t affected by this spell.
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