Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pukunui Dec 12, 2014 13:29:39	Hi folks,   One of the PCs in my campaign loves to use shatter whenever possible, and it has occurred to me that we may be adjudicating its effects incorrectly. In addition to damaging creatures, it also damages all nonmagical unattended objects (not just glass or crystalline   The name 'shatter' invokes high-pitched, glass-breaking frequencies, but the rules of the spell seem to indicate that its effect isn't limited to crystalline structures. In fact, creatures made of stone or metal, as well as those made of crystal, have disadvantage on the save. By inference, nonmagical objects made of stone or metal would be vulnerable as well.   We've been playing it that the spell is basically a concussive blast of sound that pulverizes or shreds objects rather than merely agitating their atomic structures. So if a shatter spell goes off in a library, the books on the shelves (as well as the shelves themselves maybe) get destroyed. What's caused me to hesitate is a comment on another forum that books ought to be resistant to thunder damage.   Looking at the definition of thunder damage (PHB, pg 196), a 'concussive blast of sound' is exactly what it is. Although, that being said, shatter does not push things away like thunderwave does. Still, going by the rules, a non-crystalline object such as a leatherbound tome ought to be damaged by shatter.   I guess the question is: What would that look like? I described it as pulverizing the books, causing lots of little shreds of paper and such to flutter all around the room, which seems reasonable. However, when shatter has been used to kill creatures, I've described it as essentially blowing them up. I wonder if maybe that is an inaccurate description. What would someone killed by a high-pitched concussive blast of sound look like?   Has anyone got any different ideas about how this spell is supposed to work? Are we 'doing it right'?   Your thoughts please.
#2 cowleymen Dec 12, 2014 14:11:28	its like the shock wave of an explosion with out an explosion. The damage caused by Shatter comes from that sonic boom effect going off and displacing the air with such force that its like getting hit with a blunt object. To be honest I would houserule that shatter is force damage, not thunder. Explosions crack and break things apart. Books can get torn apart, the bindings getting ripped ect when they get hit with that shockwave. Check out the many many episodes of Mythbusters(tons of clips on youtube) where they talk about surving an explosion. Explosions can kill you with out hitting you with any shrapenel at all.   I am not in any shape or form a physcist, so if some one with more experince, feel free to correct me..
#3 pukunui Dec 12, 2014 14:24:56	cowleymen wrote:
#4 cowleymen Dec 12, 2014 14:42:49	Squishys don't crack no, like a said, shatter makes a shockwave, and when it hits a squishy, it presses your internal organs so hard that they rupture inside your body, bleeding out. metal could bend under forces like that, get wrapped. Again, my knowledge is basic and I cant explain it in super good detail, but when you queench a sword, the cooling causes the parts of the alloy to shape.
#5 OoftaMeg Dec 12, 2014 16:05:31	I think cowleymen has it basically right ... it's like the shockwave from an explosion.  As far as the damage, it would be the same as anything hit by a large blunt object. So the wood of a bookshelf might be in splinters and collapse under it's own weight, the tile floor is now full of cracks emanating from the center of the shatter.   Metal could have all sorts of stress fractures or be bent and crumpled.
#6 pukunui Dec 12, 2014 16:22:28	I suppose explaining it as a shockwave would help explain why sticking your fingers in your ears is not a valid defense against it (like closing your eyes can be when fighting a medusa). However, why then does thunderwave produce a really loud noise and a push effect while shatter does not? I realize that sound is produced by waves traveling through the air, so the effect of shatter can't not be a wave of some kind. Can you have different kinds of shockwaves? I guess thunderwave might be at a lower frequency than shatter, thus it produces longer, slower waves with more "oomph" while shatter has high-frequency short waves that move faster and basically just pack a quick blunt force punch that might potentially knock you over but wouldn't blow you several yards down the road.   Does that sound about right?
#7 cowleymen Dec 12, 2014 16:28:52	Actually, thats another reason I rule Shatter as force damage. Though all shockwaves produce sound, even if humans cant hear them or it takes time to produce them. But sound happens when air fills the void created from that wave. Pushing air out doesnt produce sound, its when air collides back in on itself that it does. One could argue that the Shatter spell does not produce outward forced, but inward force. It breaks everything by pulling on it with excessive force. force can travel in multiple directions.
#8 pukunui Dec 12, 2014 16:33:28	So you prefer shatter to produce "pure magical energy focused into a damaging form" (the definition of force damage) rather than have it produce a "concussive burst of sound" (the definition of thunder damage)? Just want to make sure I'm on the same page as you.
#9 OoftaMeg Dec 12, 2014 16:48:39	Thunder damage is kind of odd but even in the real world sound can be strong enough to have a concussive impact.  Crank up the bass on a good stereo and you can feel the sound waves vibrating through your body.   I kind of look at it like the difference between putting something on a stove to heat vs the microwave.  The effects are similar - the food gets hot - but how it gets there is different.  The difference is that thunder is instantaneously travelling through your body and interacts with it as it passes through and setting off internal vibrations so while your spleen is vibrating left your kidneys are vibrating right and the fact that they're bouncing off of each other is what's causing the damage.   Which first of all, eww, but second of all could just mean that someone hit with a shatter hard enough to kill them just collapses as their bones shatter (tear themselves apart) and they start profusely bleeding from all their, umm, orifices.
#10 pukunui Dec 12, 2014 17:08:07	OoftaMeg wrote:
#11 raleel Dec 12, 2014 17:27:00	See, I don't think of a big noise, but more the right noise and the object damage is caused by reverberations rather than force. That's why it works on generally very brittle things in the spell. They can't take the vibrations.
(Reply to #10) OoftaMeg	pukunui wrote:
#13 pukunui Dec 12, 2014 17:43:48	raleel wrote:
#14 cowleymen Dec 12, 2014 17:51:17	Shatter does not hit at hard, instead, it produces whats called resonant frequency. Instead of creating such a forceful wave of sound that the victims might get pushed away,  it causes them to just split themselves apart. inorganic materials are espically vulnabrale to these sounds.    resonant frequency works because materials oscillate with greater amplitude at certian frequency. this is the principle that you see when a singer shatters a glass with their voice. Organic materials have water in them, so they can not shatter like metal, stone, and other inorganic materials that have crystillane structers. Instead they tear bloodvessels and internal organs apart, leaking from orrfrice of DM's choice
#15 pukunui Dec 12, 2014 18:05:26	cowleymen wrote:
#16 OoftaMeg Dec 12, 2014 18:16:21	I would say the book just falls apart because it's spine has been broken. There could be other effects too like pages fluttering around caught in the vortex of sound, etc.
#17 pukunui Dec 12, 2014 18:21:22	OK so having them explode into little shredded bits of paper was probably a bit too much then, eh?
#18 Ganymede425 Dec 12, 2014 20:41:31	I don't see anything in the description for Shatter that indicates it works anything like a shockwave or sonic boom.   The description states as follows: "A sudden loud ringing noise, painfully intense, erupts from a point of your choice within range." It takes far more than a creative interpretation to turn a loud rinigng noise into a shockwave or anything of the sort.     Regarding nonmagical objects in the blast, I suppose it would need to be adjucated on an ad hoc basis in the same way as the flaming damage done in the blast of a Fireball or Lightning Bolt. Since there is no rules guidance as to what things are flammable or what things are resistant/immune to sonic damage, an ad hoc decision is really the only way to go.
#19 pukunui Dec 12, 2014 21:08:36	Yes. However, as I previously stated, the spell deals thunder damage, which is defined as being a "concussive burst of sound". Concussive implies some kind of shockwave.
#20 Ganymede425 Dec 13, 2014 10:26:35	pukunui wrote:
#21 pukunui Dec 13, 2014 10:47:42	That's too bad.
#22 mellored Dec 13, 2014 10:54:08	shockwaves do not all travel at the same speed, or the same frequency. Thunder wave is a low note, With a more broad impact. Shatter is a higher note, with a more piercing impact.
(Reply to #22) Ganymede425	mellored wrote:
#24 pukunui Dec 13, 2014 12:36:48	mellored wrote:
#25 cowleymen Dec 13, 2014 14:24:43	Ganymede425 wrote:
(Reply to #25) Ganymede425	cowleymen wrote:
#27 BRJN Dec 13, 2014 16:13:10	While a bit over-the-top, the videos from the 1950s-era A-bomb tests might be helpful.  There is radiation, heat, and blast damage involved.  Look particularly for the latter.  You've seen the video of the house being blown away and that might be considered a 9th-level up-powered Shatter.
#28 mellored Dec 14, 2014 9:50:12	Nah, a bombs are thunder wave. Things get knocked back, not shattered.