Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Slowlearneruk Sep 14, 2015 4:48:23	A player is considering taking a level in rogue for his wizard so that he can take a skill expertise in Arcane - the rogue expertise rules state "At 1st level you can choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves' tools."   The implication is that expertise should be from the rogue class list but I think that the rules need to be a little more explicitly stated if that is the intention. If the player multiclassed they would get to select one skill from the rogue class list plus thieves tools, again if the rules were more clearly stated then they would take their expertise from any skill proficiencies that they may already have that are in the rogue skill list rather than just the two that they have gained when multiclassing.   Finally it is of course possible to pick up skills from background and without a stronger rules description a soldier background might for instance permit a rogue to take athletics as an expertise along which might combine very well with the grappler feat - is this the intention?       ..alex
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Sep 14, 2015 5:01:51	The rules are written in a way that their language does not assume the use of any optional rules - a result of that is that things are often phrased in a way that would make perfect sense if multi-classing were not possible.   It is best when allowing multi-classing to open up the interpretation of any such rules worded like this, excluding those directly covered by the multi-classing rules, so that things function as smoothly as possible - in this case, a wizard taking a level in rogue and being able to gain expertise in any skill they are proficient with or thieves tools if they are proficient with them.
#3 iserith Sep 14, 2015 5:49:25	Slowlearneruk wrote:
#4 Kahless Sep 14, 2015 5:52:33	Downtime rules state you can gain training in skills by spending gold and time, or is that an optional rule? Can't remember if that's DMG or PHB and don't have my books with me at the moment. I know it's legal in AL.
(Reply to #2) Slowlearneruk	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #5) FarBeyondC	Slowlearneruk wrote:
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 14, 2015 9:15:03	I really don't think it's any problem. Have the rogue pick any skill he's proficient with and double the proficiency bonus.   In the specific case of this character, it's not like having a really high Intelligence (Arcana) check result actually unbalances anything - you can easily play a wizard who isn't proficient with Arcana and he'll be as good a spellcaster as anyone else. You don't even need to roll it to copy a spell into a spellbook.
#8 Godwyn Sep 14, 2015 11:16:04	It seems the player wants the character to be a true expert on all matters arcane, and is willing to invest significant opportunity costs in doing so.  Let it happen.
#9 jaelis Sep 14, 2015 12:13:40	Kahless wrote:
#10 CahPahkah Sep 14, 2015 12:17:31	Slowlearneruk wrote:
#11 strider13x Sep 14, 2015 14:59:51	double proficiency in Arcana versus more spells? Wow...
#12 Slowlearneruk Sep 15, 2015 9:27:20	Thanks everyone for input, I'm not looking for help in making a ruling in this case - our campaign world is a setting where magic is very rare and in decline, the players have some magic items but they are exceptional and precious - they don't see many of them. The magician is in constant peril of being burnt at the stake, and in cities his magic is never subtle, often with alarming side effects.   What I was really looking for was opionions on the original design intent which in my view was left rather opaque.   For what it's worth, the reason that he is looking to increase his arcane is that he can use it to research spells. The means of crafting a magical scroll have been lost, consequently when they are rarely discovered they can be erased to leave a folio - onto which a different spell can be transcribed. It is possible to research a spell that is not known and transcribe it to a folio but that is a tough arcana roll and the consequences of failure mean that the folio is lost.   Folios (and scrolls) are rare and precious loot - the player is wondering about how to try and improve his chances of not wasting them. The Arcane DC is 10 + spell level plus minimum caster level so it quickly gets pretty tough - he can add his library bonus (+3) and a source material bonus which is sometimes found as loot but if he is ever to hope to transcribe say level six spells then he has to roll a 27 and that's a big ask.   Following on from some of the suggestions above we thought about a cleric of knowledge but unfortunately his character is bright but she's not the wisest. Given all of our setting details and house rules, I don't think that taking a level in rogue in order to become one of the only wizards in the land that can transcribe ahigh level spells fits the setting very well.
#13 Loswaith Sep 16, 2015 20:23:00	Per RAW the only limitation on expertises is that the character be profocient in the skill, the skill isnt limited to Rogue starter skills either.   Sounds like by making the DC's so difficuilt and the cost exceptional, that to actually have a remote chance of doing what his character would want to do, he has to go for every bonus possible. If you didnt want casters to play with the higher level spells just disallow it (with some good logic that it is just beyond the capabilities of the setting by normal beings helps keep the flavour too).   However as I see it it sounds like a great way for the character to actually become a promanent figure in the world/story and quite unique (ingraning the character into the world and adding more of that "you are special" aspect to rationalise high level characters).  This could then lead to all sorts of good and bad situations from factions that want magic to thrive or be quashed, or powerful NPCs that want favours from the character.   It is in essence setting up the character as a Merlin, Gandalf, Raistlin or Elminster like figure for the world and as such would be memorable for the players long after the game is over.