Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shivafang Aug 05, 2014 6:08:40	Am I missing a rule somewhere that you get extra skills for having a high Intelligence score?  If not, why do Wizards get so few skills, when they are supposed to be the most well learned and studious class?   This was a gripe I had in 3.x - a Wizard gets the same number of skills as a Fighter (and fewer than a Barbarian) with the same Intelligence, but at least the Wizard was more likely to have the intelligence to get all the skills they need.     Now that Intelligence seems to not be a factor in number of skills (unless I missed it), what gives?  Wizards need 4 skill choices, not 2!
#2 Plaguescarred1 Aug 05, 2014 6:21:50	Intelligence by itself doesn't grant any additional skill proficiencies.
#3 iserith Aug 05, 2014 6:34:59	Skills come from a character's background as well. A "sage" wizard has 4 skills.   In addition, a wizard without training in the "lore" skills still has a +3 if he took a 15 in his primary stat and has a race that bumps that number. A well-rounded wizard will take training in something else.
#4 Joe_the_Rat Aug 05, 2014 6:44:47	The 'Well-learned and studious" part comes through in their affinity for Intelligence.  Consider that attributes are not your inherent ability, but the combination of raw talent and development of general abilities related to that area.  Most of the Intelligence-related proficiencies are knowledge related, which suggests that a character with high intelligence is going to be fairly knowledgable, even in areas outside their particular focus (Arcana, history.. whatever else they have proficiency in).  You also get skill (and tool) proficiencies from backgrounds, so Wizards do get 4 skills. So do Fighters and Clerics.   Keep in mind that Wizard is more of a "know stuff" class than a "know how to do a bunch of stuff" class, the latter being more in line with Rogue, who has 6 skills at start (including Backgrounds).
#5 kanageddaamen Aug 05, 2014 6:44:32	Only 5 of the skills are intelligence based.  A fighter and wizard may get the same number of skills, but they are drawn from a different collection of options, ones that are appropriate to their class.  Why should a wizard have more intelligence based skills than a fighter has strength, dexterity or charisma based skills?  The wizard may have studied but the fighter may have experience in the streets. However, with the (what I find to be truly excellent) customization options provided with backgrounds, you can create that know it all wizard with the Sage background.  If you pick that background, you could easily have 4 of the 5 Int based skills at level 1, and I see no justification for why the wizard should get any more than that. I also really like that rogues are skill beasts.  If you have an elven rogue, you will end up with 7 proficient skills, which I think aligns nicely with the rogue's play and role play style
#6 E-Tallitnics Aug 05, 2014 8:34:33	shivafang wrote:
#7 mrpopstar Aug 05, 2014 15:01:36	E-Tallitnics wrote:
#8 2Chlorobutanal Aug 05, 2014 17:54:02	I was always under the impression that a Wizard spent all his or her time learning magic as opposed to mundane techniques and skills, hence the limited skill selection.  This was offset in 3.0 and 3.5 by the Int modifier, but I don't think that should be a universal, inherent benefit of being a wizard.   As far as languages go, comprehend languages is a ritual spell.  Wizards can be polyglots (or at least understand all languages) all day long if they wish.
#9 mrpopstar Aug 06, 2014 4:58:27	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#10 Ahglock Aug 06, 2014 11:02:41	I'm fine with a wizards only gettig 2 skills.  The area that is weak IMO is their prime stat intelligence is a weak save and adds very little outside of saves.  If you are not a wizard it can be dumped entirely(outside roelplaying blah blah). Outside the rare knowledge lets me know the monsters weakness thing, the skills are basically fluff. And chances are you will get information anyways even without the skill. Yeah its not 1 check you now know the history of clan whatever, but through the adventure the history will come out.  If intelligence did something tangible that other stats didn't it would be solid.
#11 shivafang Aug 06, 2014 10:58:28	^ That's part of the problem I have with this too.  In previous editions Charima was the easiest stat to dump.  In this edition, Charisma is actually more useful than Intelligence - not because Charisma got better, but Intelligence got worse.
#12 Polaris Aug 06, 2014 14:39:31	shivafang wrote:
#13 E-Tallitnics Aug 06, 2014 22:42:29	Remember that the game mechanics are designed in such a way that there really isn't a "dump stat" anymore.    Keeping in mind that there are Save vs. [Stat] across the board, to me they break down like this: DEX for AC, Inititative, Passive Stealth, Finesse Weapons, Defense vs being Grappled.  CON for a pure HP bonus.  WIS for Passive Perception, Active Perception. INT for Passive Investigation, Active Investigation.  CHA for protection from being Charmed (i.e. Mind controlled) STR for Grappling, Climbing, Non-Finesse Weapons. Remember that all task resolution resolves to the 6 ability scores. Therefore anyone can (and should) "try anything!", those with the appropriate skills and stats will be a better character then those that don't balance their character.
#14 shivafang Aug 07, 2014 8:16:45	Int is the weakest of the saves.  There's not spell in the Basic Rules that rely on an int save (there is one that ends on an int CHECK, which IMO was a wasted opportunity - they should have made it an int save)   Investigation is marginal and rarely needed (like charisma skills) - let the wizard do it.  Or the rogue (or whoever actually needs the trapfinding).  As you pointed out Charisma is protection from being Charmed or Petrified, thus I stand by my assertion that Int is the new dump stat unless you are a wizard or the one with the thieves' tool proficiency, as charisma is better and intelligence is worse.   Playing the at our local D&D Encounters yesterday, I noticed that all of the pregen characters had more languages than you'd have if you build the character out of the Basic Rules.  I didn't check their int scores, but it seems to me that high Int players get more starting languages.  That would be fair enough, if that's the case.
#15 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 8:23:09	shivafang wrote:
(Reply to #15) shivafang	kanageddaamen wrote:
#17 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 8:23:40	shivafang wrote:
#18 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 8:34:25	shivafang wrote:
#19 iserith Aug 07, 2014 8:46:08	I don't see why an 8 Intelligence forces a player to act like a nitwit or to make stupid choices. It only comes into play when making Int-based ability checks.
#20 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 8:58:13	iserith wrote:
#21 iserith Aug 07, 2014 10:20:35	I'm still not seeing why it's forcing the players to act any particular (stupid) way. Players decide how their characters think and act. They can make smart decisions in game play even when they have an 8 Intelligence. Will the DM tell them "you can't do that?"
(Reply to #20) AaronOfBarbaria	kanageddaamen wrote:
#23 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 10:53:22	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #23) AaronOfBarbaria	kanageddaamen wrote:
#25 iserith Aug 07, 2014 11:29:20	kanageddaamen wrote:
#26 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 11:53:07	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#27 iserith Aug 07, 2014 11:57:38	A DM is not empowered to tell a player how that player's character thinks or acts based on any consideration including what the DM thinks an Intelligence score means. The DM, however, is empowered to determine whether or not an action has an uncertain outcome and a chance of failure (and thus call for a check). I think it's important not to overstep one's role when DMing.
(Reply to #26) AaronOfBarbaria	kanageddaamen wrote:
#29 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 12:52:54	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #29) AaronOfBarbaria	kanageddaamen wrote:
#31 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 13:21:44	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #31) AaronOfBarbaria	kanageddaamen wrote:
#33 iserith Aug 07, 2014 14:20:12	kanageddaamen wrote:
#34 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 14:25:14	iserith wrote:
#35 Beldak_Serpenthelm Aug 07, 2014 14:39:11	kanageddaamen wrote:
#36 iserith Aug 07, 2014 14:42:08	kanageddaamen wrote:
#37 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 17:13:12	iserith wrote:
#38 iserith Aug 07, 2014 18:25:30	kanageddaamen wrote:
#39 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 19:56:03	iserith wrote: