Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 FrankJones Aug 21, 2014 20:58:47	The text for the half elf's ability to hide is identical to the text for hiding granted by the skulker feat, except that it restricts hiding to naturally occurring light obscurity.    Is this a distinction with a difference? Can anyone name an example in DnD of non-natural light obscurity?   Otherwise, the abilities appear identical.
#2 Plaguescarred1 Aug 21, 2014 21:21:26	I'd would not consider the dim light of a torch or the web spell to be a natural phenomenon for exemple.
#3 shivafang Aug 21, 2014 21:27:38	Plaguescarred wrote:
(Reply to #2) FrankJones	Plaguescarred wrote:
#5 shivafang Aug 21, 2014 21:31:34	FrankJones wrote:
#6 Kalani Aug 21, 2014 21:31:43	I would state that Fog Cloud would count as a source of unnatural obscurement. I am sure there are many other spells which would also apply. Other examples would be the special abilities of some monsters, as well as some traps and environmental effects, especially magical environments (I expect the DMG to have examples of traps and environmental effects which would qualify).   A shear drape would also count, as might a spiderweb (the spiderweb may originate from a natural beast, but it is not a naturally occuring phenomenon of the environment).
#7 Plaguescarred1 Aug 21, 2014 21:43:53	FrankJones wrote:
#8 shivafang Aug 21, 2014 21:37:33	Plaguescarred wrote:
#9 Plaguescarred1 Aug 21, 2014 21:46:55	shivafang wrote:
#10 FrankJones Aug 21, 2014 21:56:30	Plaguescarred, I think the shadow issue is clear enough.    Let me ask you a bit more about the torch though.    Some wood in the corner catches fire and sheds dim light. Wood elf can hide.    NPC picks a piece of the wood up and uses it as a torch. Does wood elf lose ability to hide and simply reappears?   In other words, does it really just boil down to whether the phenomenon is directly connected to something intelligent or not?   forest fire, heap of wood: natural torch, bonfire, cooking fire: unnatural?
#11 FrankJones Aug 21, 2014 22:40:56	Short answer from Jeremy Crawford, yes to Plaguscarred's reading. I'm going to say that if the light is shed by something manufactured or which an intelligent creature is using as a light source it's unnatural for purposes of the rules.
#12 Plaguescarred1 Aug 22, 2014 7:01:59	FYI Jeremy Crawford confirmed dim light from torch and lantern should not qualify;   @Khanyoudigit1 Mask of the Wild differs from Skulker. Restricts to natural light obscurity. Trouble adjudicating. Can you advise? Thanks! @JeremyECrawford Mask of the Wild lets a wood elf try to hide when lightly obscured by anything in nature: the dim light of dusk, fog, etc. @Khanyoudigit1 Thanks! What constitutes unnatural light obscurity? For example: campfire, forest fire, torch, wall of fog, web? @JeremyECrawford The primary example is the dim light created by most of the game's light sources: torches, lanterns, e
#13 onceMoreIntoBreech Aug 22, 2014 9:52:58	The source of the dim light is fire held by an intelligent creature: can't hide. The source of the dim light is a wildfire: can hide.   That's a bit absurd.   Here's another example.   Wood Elf hiding in an underground cave where there is no light: heavily obscured, totally fine. A creature with Darkvision looks around, treating the heavily obscured area as lightly obscured: Wood Elf can't hide because the creature with Darkvision makes the darkness into dim light that is from an intelligent source so the Wood Elf can't hide. Same cave, but the cave has photoluminescent moss which creates dim light in the cave instead of the creature with Darkvision: Wood Elf can use the dim light to hide.   ...   The best example of an unnatural source for lightly obscured I can think of is a crowded marketplace, tavern, or other areas where people/creatures gather. Perhaps a parade with confetti or a palace hall with lots of hanging tapestries. The skulker can hide in those places while the Wood Elf clearly can't.   I'm guessing the point of making Mask of the Wild unable to hide in shadows (made by torches, etc.) is to make the racial ability less useful than the skulker feat? I guess it makes sense from a game design perpective. Wouldn't want every rogue to take Wood Elf just because hiding in shadows is a freebee.
#14 Goober4473 Aug 22, 2014 11:40:24	The wood elf ability is pretty clearly meant to allow them to hide in natural surroundings and weather effects, and not at the dim edge of lights. While a forest fire may technically be natural, I wouldn't count the dim light it creates among the things wood elves can hide in. Of course, since a forest fire is by definition in a forest, they would have no problem hiding in any non-burning foliage that till exists.   For simplicity, ask yourself this: could a wood elf's abiltiy to blend in to natural environments be used to hide in this situation? Darkness partially illuminated by fire? Probably not. Darkness partially illuminated by the moon or star light? Yes.
(Reply to #13) Hailrobonia	onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:
(Reply to #13) FrankJones	Not sure why you think intelligence is an absurd test for naturalness. I'll grant you I don't see the difference in the real world between a fire caused by a lightning strike and one caused by a match but naturalness is not a criterion for vision in the real world. So I don't know what the point of bringing real world examples into this issue is.    The lighting produced by an erupting volcano would clearly be natural in DnD while the same light produced by magic, a machine, or anything else you like that's caused by intelligence would be unnatural. We may say that's arbitrary. And it is. But I think that's the rule.    Darkvision doesn't cause dim light. None of the vision types cause any light. The relative absence or presence of a light source does.    Dark vision just treats darkness as light obscurity and dimness as no obscurity. It doesn't make darkness dim light.    This is idea that the creature seeing is some how causing lighting conditions has no basis in the ruleset (or outside the ruleset for that matter).    In the case of the drow you mention, I'd adjudicate whether the wood elf can hide on the basis of whether the darkness is a result of a natural phenomenon. I'm not certain on what those phenomena are but that's the direction adjudication would have to go I think. Lunar eclipse, yes. Room darkened by building collapse, not so sure. Light source totally blotted out by the size of a creature, no.        onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:
#17 Psikerlord Aug 22, 2014 18:13:50	Plaguescarred wrote:
#18 Psikerlord Aug 22, 2014 18:17:08	Plaguescarred wrote:
#19 UnknownMourner Aug 22, 2014 23:28:08	Geography, plants, and weather are fine enough.
#20 SteampunkMonk Aug 23, 2014 0:02:55	I took this ability to mean that Wood Elves are somehow able to camouflage themselves, blending into natural backgrounds well enough that when their outlines are broken up by some obscuring phenomenon like rain or leaves, they are more difficult to see than other races. Natural didn't strike me as a hard word to interpret, but perhaps it is. Just think of the kinds of environments that Druids and Rangers inhabit, and you have the answer, natural means the outside world, plants, weather, a waterfall, maybe a wild animal. Not a building, wooden fence, or person. Perhaps not a domestic animal. Darkness is more difficult, as it clearly exists in both natural and man-made environments. I would say that not being aable to see someone because not enough light is available to do so is different from being hard to seperate from your surroundings, which appears to be the flavour of the trait.