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| #1pelt1118Dec 13, 2014 9:05:03 | Ok I'm loving the Rise of Tiamat. My problem is with one of my players breaking the game with his sorcerer. What he has done is taken the alertness feat(so he almost always goes first +9 init) then he spends his points to quicken so he can double fireball in the first round. Now he is lev 7 right now so its just going to get worse. Its creating a terrible situation because he just double fireballs round 1 then spends the other points to reroll if he rolls crappy damage. One turn combats are happening. How can I fix this? The other players are just playing mop up after the firballx2.
Help? Should I take away the feat? Make the cost of spells higher for the sorcerer points? Instead of spending 2 spell points to quicken a fireball make it 4 pts for a third lev spell?
Any suggestions would be appreciated. They are at the end of book 1 and about to go after the adult white dragon in the cloud giant castle. |
| #2Trance-ZgDec 13, 2014 9:14:17 | he can't cast two fireballs a turn.
rules about bonus action casting, pg202;
B o n u s A c t io n
but with +9 init he will probably be first at round 2 anyway.
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| #3AndyDayDec 13, 2014 9:33:07 |
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| #4Trance-ZgDec 13, 2014 9:48:53 | I don't like it either, it should be 1 pt only, as it gives one bonus cantrip in terms of DPS.
But most of sorcerers metamagic effects aren't any better.
Problem is only nova burst of power.
At level 7 with alert feat, he could blast lvl4 fireball, lvl3 fireball, 2nd round; lvl3 fireball, lvl3 fireball without restriction.
Yes you did burn all highlevel slots, but you just burned entire army camp |
| #5CariadocThorneDec 13, 2014 11:33:49 | Something I did when I encountered a similar problem while running a game in a different system was to add an enemy caster who ran countermagic, effectively shutting down the group's mage. This created quite a fun, tense scene as the mage kept trying to get spells through, with only a little success, while the rest of the party was under pressure without the mage's support, so they had to not only hold their own while outnumbered, but also find a way to take out the enemy caster before the mage burned himself out, so that the mage could help handle the mobs.
An enemy caster with counterspell could do the same job in this game. |
| #6THEMNGMNTDec 13, 2014 13:06:29 | The Cult is dangerous, intelligent, and highly motivated. If a player tears through them, they would change their tactics. It's possible that the Cult will scry the players to learn the sorcerers abilities. Then they will set an ambush or try to catch the players unaware. They will assemble a team designed specifically to shut down the sorcerer. Fire resistance, fire immunity, counterspells, silence spell, invisibility, mirror image, whatever. They will stay spread out to reduce the effectiveness of AoE attacks. They will attack be air with flying creatures or come up through the ground with burrowing creatures. Meanwhile, they will change the way they defend their fortresses. Defenders would come in waves. Lots of waves. Lots and lots of waves. Throw waves of 20 kobolds at the players. By the time the third wave comes, the players will be in trouble. After that, the heavy hitters will show up--trolls, giants, drakes, wyverns, whatever. |
| #7BRJNDec 13, 2014 16:32:55 | Send an assassin to his room while he is sleeping. Will he Fireball himself and all his friends too? Plan a knock-down-drag-out encounter that tries to expend all his magic nova on some low-value cannon fodder, then brings out the tough bruisers afterwards. Send him into an attrition trap (trying to travel through a ravine with snipers sneaking along the rim?) so there is no good target for his alpha strike. Summon something from the Plane of Fire that can take the hit, laugh at him, and retaliate in kind. Silence 15' Radius cast on a sling stone; aim the stone at him. Get the jump on him with an Aura of Cold (dampens fire) monster Surround him with squealing groupies to distract him and stroke his ego. Send a spy who "wants to become his apprentice". Lure him into a dead-magic zone, then pick a fight Attack from many different directions at once (works best when he is out in the open) so he can't get them all Send an ambassador to negotiate a truce; flatter him with his power and importance. Offer a bribe if he will stay uninvolved or support you. Longbow snipers at extreme range can probably get into an artillery duel with him, with the odds in their favor. Mirrorsheen Armor: reflects any magic thrown at it back to its source. (4e) See how HE likes getting nuked.
The Cult of the Dragon also has at its disposal several undead dragons. This is a source of lore and wisdom and experience that should not be underestimated. |
| #8Coredump00Dec 13, 2014 23:38:16 |
None of the drastic actions listed above are needed.... you don't need to single him out, you just need to understand the rules.
First, he can't cast Fireball twice in a round. He can quicken Fireball, and cast a cantrip.
Second, he is only 7th level... Once he casts 3 quickened fireballs, and Empowers one of them... he is out of 3rd level spells, *and* out of sorcery points. Sure, he can start converting, but if he swaps out every single slot he has, he can get 2 more quickened fireballs
So, at best, he can cast 5 quickened fireballs, and do nothing else all day. So how is he doing this 'double fireball' trick every encounter? At best he could do it twice a day; since there should be 6-8 encounters a day; what is he doing for the other 4-6 encounters?
And don't forget, Empower only lets him reroll 3-4 dice (depending on his Cha)
Last of all.... what are they fighting? A CR 7 creature should be a fairly easy fight for them. Blue Slaad has 123 HP, Giant Ape 157 Hp, Gricck Alpha 75hp, stone giant 126 Hp.... and those are the *medium* encounters. A fireball does 28 hp on average, assuming they save about half the time.... you are talking 45 Hp from this 'double attack'.... Giant Ape is not impressed. And the Adult White Dragon... has 200Hp, a couple of fireballs are not going to impress it all that much |
| #9TheNovaLordDec 14, 2014 4:47:19 | We are all new to 5th. Don't let rules misreads affect the game. Next session talk him through this correct ruling |
| (Reply to #8)EzechielDantan |
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| #11OoftaMegDec 14, 2014 7:08:03 | First, as others have pointed out he can't cast two fireballs per round. Second, is there a reason the enemies are always in fireball formation? It's a powerful spell, but fireballs should be somewhat situational depending on how the enemy is organized.
Some other suggestions:
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| #12Huntsman57Dec 14, 2014 8:09:02 | As mentioned he cant quicken to cast 2 fireballs though he can follow up his quickened 8d6+5 fireball with a 2d10+5 firebolt. Of course, at 7th level against fewer targets he may be better off breaking the game with 15d6+25 damage worth of hexed scorching rays.. |
| #13IgnatiusJ.ReillyDec 14, 2014 15:26:07 | Yes, Quicken Spell is neat, but not that good. The only way to cast two fireballs on a single turn is to use an action to cast fireball and then Action Surge to cast another fireball. Maybe create a fighter/wizard bad guy and show them how broken it is - just kidding. My, I remember 3rd edition Haste, those were the days. |
| (Reply to #10)Ashrym |
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| #15SynjinDec 16, 2014 7:55:45 |
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| #16AndyDayDec 16, 2014 8:30:05 | One easy way to counter alpha-striking wizards it to send in the grunts in spread-out formations, so area affects cannot get them all. Or, send them in one at a time, if quarters are tight. Force the wizard to hold his spells since he doesn't want to waste them.
This isn't even targetting the wizard per se. IRL, you don't clump troops together and send them against an MG nest. You don't do a parade march when the americans are going to drop a laser-guided bomb on your troops. You spread out, hide, flank, etc. Magic has a way of making fantasy battlefields look a lot more modern. |
| #17transcendantviewerDec 17, 2014 15:11:45 |
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| #18PylgrimJan 25, 2015 21:58:49 |
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| #19UndrhilJan 26, 2015 5:34:51 | The real answer was given back in the second post. You can't Quicken Fireball and then cast Firebal again, because if you cast a spell with a bonus action, you cannot cast another spell that turn unless it's a 1 action cantrip. So, if he casts Fireball normally, then he cannot cast Quicken any spell since he already cast a non-Cantrip spell, so no Bonus Action spells this turn. If he Quickens Fireball first, then he can only cast a 1 action cantrip on the same turn.
So, show the Sorcerer the rules, let him know that it won't work anymore, then let him waste his slots Fireballing once per turn every turn, if he wants. |
| (Reply to #3)QwertyAzerty |
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| #21durntaurJan 27, 2015 10:48:59 |
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| #22TimboramaJan 28, 2015 7:59:05 |
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| #23durntaurJan 28, 2015 9:11:12 |
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| (Reply to #13)RubenRybnikk |
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| (Reply to #24)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| (Reply to #25)ScuroNotte |
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| (Reply to #26)Undrhil |
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| (Reply to #27)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #29YunruFeb 02, 2015 4:16:26 | Which fail to account for a Quickened Fireball followed by a normal Firebolt being the same as a normal Fireball followed by a Quickened Firebolt. It's just unneeded complexity. |
| (Reply to #29)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #31ScuroNotteFeb 02, 2015 7:18:41 | I am still confused. When you normally cast a spell, you only can cast one. However, with action surge, you can cast another spell. You still have a bonus action don't you? Then I can't see why you can't Fireball, action surge, Fireball Quicken, then Firebolt. Isn't it like the two-weapon fighter who gets to use offhand bonus attacks twice when using action surge? |
| (Reply to #31)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #33ScuroNotteFeb 02, 2015 9:46:17 | So if you are a player spellcaster with action surge and quicken Metamagic, you can either 1. Cast 2 fireballs OR 2. Cast Fireball and 2 cantrips
And if spellcaster with action surge and no metamagic, you can Cast only Fire ball and firebolt
And my DM is either wrong or House ruling when he allows 2 weapon fighters to use 2 bonus attacks with action surge |
| #34Captain_KoboldFeb 02, 2015 9:54:08 |
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| #35jonathonhawkeFeb 02, 2015 10:10:28 |
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| #36CooperjeraFeb 02, 2015 11:00:51 | I would like to add some confusion to the mix. A caster also has a few reaction speed spells (Shield, Counterspell, Feather Fall, etc.) . These spells do not limit the number of spells or type of spells cast per turn as a bonus action spell does. Therefore a caster could quicken a 1 action spell and cast, then cast a cantrip (order does not matter), then jump off a cliff and cast Feather Fall. Keep in mind a character is limited to one reaction per round. |
| #37ScuroNotteFeb 02, 2015 11:02:55 | I understand now. Thanks for patience in explaining it over and over again. |
| #38RulesJDFeb 02, 2015 14:44:46 |
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| (Reply to #38)Cooperjera |
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| #40BZAMar 14, 2015 22:02:48 | Note that if you Quicken a spell (turning it into a bonus action), if you use your main action to cast a spell it must be a cantrip, but there may be lots of other things you can do with your action besides cast a spell. People who say Quickened Spell is not very strong often focus on "using it only lets you cast an extra cantrip", which isn't true. |
| #41LordMorinMar 21, 2015 0:09:42 |
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| (Reply to #41)Undrhil |
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| #43Byakugan01Mar 21, 2015 2:52:09 | If a sorcerer took 2 levels of fighter to get action surge, then he would be playing a pretty sub par character from levels 3-6. Especially if he took the alertness feat. At level 7 he would FINaLLy get fireball and only be able to cast 2 3rd level spells a day. Or 3(4?) if he burned all his other spell slots.
Spell caster using 80%-100% of his daily power potential to nova 1 fight is fine. It is a feature not a bug. He'll miss those fireballs in the next encounter when the trolls show up.
It is actually not a big advantage to go first as a spellcaster. If you move up and dont kill everything or more foes that u couldnt see show up, you get pasted pretty fast by anything that isnt dead. Assasins have same problem...if they hit something that doesn't die odds are good they draw aggro.
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| (Reply to #42)Coredump00 |
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