Sorcerer Elemental Affinity and Scorching Ray - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 arnwolf666 Mar 22, 2015 17:59:35	When a Red Dragon Sorcerer casts scorching ray with a second level spell slot is the damage 2d6 + charisma modifier for each ray? I really don't want to cheat the player. Is there any official ruling on this from people who play for organized play or adventure league?
#2 Byakugan01 Mar 22, 2015 18:24:34	Yeah it is charisma damage on each ray. Each of the rays are resolved as separate attack rolls. If it was worded such that you only rolled to hit once per target then it would only apply once to each target.
#3 arnwolf666 Mar 22, 2015 18:27:11	That seems like an insanely powerful combination. Scorching Ray truly becomes a bread and better spell for a Sorcerer. Is there any documentation on how that is being used for organized play or an official ruling anywhere?
#4 RulesJD Mar 22, 2015 19:41:31	arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #4) arnwolf666	RulesJD wrote:
(Reply to #5) Lucas_Blackstone	arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #6) arnwolf666	Lucas_Blackstone wrote:
#8 paulstrait Mar 23, 2015 0:24:57	You could always tweet the devs if you need an 'official' ruling. They are usually good about responding. But I agree with the others--the bonus applies to each ray.
#9 Byakugan01 Mar 23, 2015 1:30:11	It makes scorching ray particularly strong against an individual monster for affinity sorcerers, yes. But keep in mind the fact there are 3 attack rolls makes for a decent chance to miss one. Especially if there is a cover bonus. Positioning to avoid cover is actually supposed to be pretty tricky, but a lot of games hand waive the penalty. They only get 2 of them per day. Unless they burn all their resources. Later it gets a little more gross once they get improved invisibility...then they get advantage on all their rolls. But again it is still a huge investment in reaources for them.
(Reply to #7) Lucas_Blackstone	arnwolf666 wrote:
#11 arnwolf666 Mar 23, 2015 10:50:34	The way Elemental Affinity is worded the damage is added to the spell damage. i.e. 6d6 + cha mod. The way agonizing hex is worded it would be add cha mod to each hit. I am ruling in favor of the PC (as I generally do) until their is an official ruling to the ability. That's how I read the wording in the PHB. It does need clarification, very poorly written.
#12 QwertyAzerty Mar 23, 2015 10:55:36	it is not that powerfull and if you want a proof, go see the DPR king tread. who are teh DPR king? who are the one with the highest Damage Per Round? IIRC the Greatsword vengeance paladin was the top DPR, Followed by greatsword fighter, then greatsword barbarian, sharpshooter Crossbow expert a little bit behind etc... no where do we see the Fire Sorcerer scorching ray. And remember, the paladin/fighter/barbarian can found a magical greatsword that will exponentially increase it's DPR as well, very few item increase the DPR of spells (wand of war mage increase your accuracy by +1/+2/+3, robe of the archmagi and staf of the archmagi will increase your spell DC and spell accuracy, but from my knowledge no item will add an extra 2d6 necrotic damage (like Hazirawn give to the greatsword user) THere is no feat (as of now, season 2) that increase your spellcasting capacity, yes spell sniper, but it's not as good as sharp shooter is (no -5 to hit to increase damage by +10 option) There is no such thing as a magical version of great weapon fighting or polearm master. Some might argue that war caster is usefull but how many time does your sorcerer casting spell from the back line receive the opportunity to have an Attack of Opportunity?
(Reply to #11) Lucas_Blackstone	arnwolf666 wrote:
#14 jaelis Mar 23, 2015 11:40:33	I feel someone should meantion Mearls' comment on the topic: @OmgdestroyedMagic Missile, three missiles, three targets: Separate damage rolls, or once for all of them? What about a 2-1 missile split? one damage roll per target — Mike Mearls (@mikemearls) July 12, 2014
(Reply to #14) Lucas_Blackstone	jaelis wrote:
#16 Noctaem Mar 23, 2015 11:58:04	jaelis wrote:
#17 jaelis Mar 23, 2015 12:49:13	I'm not going to defend Mearls' conclusion, but I do think it is relevant. Yes, it is in the context of magic missile and not scorching ray, but they are both spells that have multiple damaging effects, each with separate damage rolls. If you can only apply Empowered Evocation once per creature that you target with magic missiles, then surely you can only apply Elemental Affinity once per creature you target with scorching ray.
#18 Byakugan01 Mar 23, 2015 13:15:27	Magic missile and scorching ray are intrinsically different. If you target a creature with 2 magic missiles, they are 'hit' 1 time and take 2d4+2. There is no hit roll and the missiles all strike simultaneously. When you hit 3 targets, you are causing 3 distinct 'hits' so you get the bonus on each target. Scorching ray requires a discreet attack roll for each ray. Ie..attack roll...roll 2d6+X....another attack roll....2d6+x. ..etc. it may be confusing because people tend to speed up their combat by rolling the whole fistfull of dice. Creating the illusion that your only causing damage once.
#19 jaelis Mar 23, 2015 13:29:13	If you target a creature with 2 magic missiles, they are 'hit' 1 time and take 2d4+2. There is no hit roll and the missiles all strike simultaneously. When you hit 3 targets, you are causing 3 distinct 'hits' so you get the bonus on each target.
#20 Knight_Marshal Mar 23, 2015 17:28:50	jaelis wrote:
#21 RulesJD Mar 23, 2015 17:29:40	MM is wrong, and Jeremy Crawford has tweeted about it. The +to damage from a classes ability is added to each damage roll. You can either trust me or I'll spend time later to get the tweet. It is on Sage Advice. Thus, SR is 3 seperate damage rolls (3 of 2d6). If all hit, then add the + to damage for each ray.
#22 jaelis Mar 23, 2015 18:01:31	RulesJD wrote:
#23 Byakugan01 Mar 23, 2015 21:08:33	My understanding is magic missile lets you pick between 1 and 3 targets...then the spell affects them according to the number of darts they are hit with. That is the logic Mearls seems to have used anyways. I don't think I actually agree with his logic. "The darts all hit simultaneously, and you can direct them all to hit one target or several" Actually the spell is worded a little contradictory to itself if interpreted a different way. SR is different because attack rolls are always made in a 'non-simultaneous' sequence. Whenever you roll an attack, then you roll damage, then you roll your next attack roll, then you roll damage, etc... A better question is 'Does it seem OP for a 11th level wizard to get +10 damage on a 3d4+8 spell that costs a spell slot?" 3d4+18 (avg 25) for a spell slot, versus a cantrip fire bolt at 3d10+5 (avg 22.5) Lets pretend the chance of crit is a wash with the MM bonus of not having to roll. 1st level spells are the LEAST of your problems at this level. Sorc with SR can happen at a lot lower level, but it is still only a couple times per day. Not that big of a deal.
#24 CahPahkah Mar 24, 2015 12:13:17	The actual issue in that question is that Mearles was talking about Impowered Evocation, not Elemental Affinity, and he's subsequently been overruled by Jeremy Crawford anyway. *Edited
#25 RulesJD Mar 24, 2015 11:18:33	CahPahkah wrote:
#26 CahPahkah Mar 24, 2015 12:11:50	RulesJD wrote:
(Reply to #26) arnwolf666	CahPahkah wrote:
(Reply to #26) Coredump00	CahPahkah wrote:
(Reply to #28) arnwolf666	Coredump00 wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

arnwolf666

Mar 22, 2015 17:59:35

When a Red Dragon Sorcerer casts scorching ray with a second level spell slot is the damage 2d6 + charisma modifier for each ray?

I really don't want to cheat the player. Is there any official ruling on this from people who play for organized play or adventure league?

Byakugan01

Mar 22, 2015 18:24:34

Yeah it is charisma damage on each ray. Each of the rays are resolved as separate attack rolls.

If it was worded such that you only rolled to hit once per target then it would only apply once to each target.

arnwolf666

Mar 22, 2015 18:27:11

That seems like an insanely powerful combination. Scorching Ray truly becomes a bread and better spell for a Sorcerer. Is there any documentation on how that is being used for organized play or an official ruling anywhere?

RulesJD

Mar 22, 2015 19:41:31

arnwolf666 wrote:

(Reply to #4)

arnwolf666

RulesJD wrote:

(Reply to #5)

Lucas_Blackstone

arnwolf666 wrote:

(Reply to #6)

arnwolf666

Lucas_Blackstone wrote:

paulstrait

Mar 23, 2015 0:24:57

You could always tweet the devs if you need an 'official' ruling. They are usually good about responding. But I agree with the others--the bonus applies to each ray.

Byakugan01

Mar 23, 2015 1:30:11

It makes scorching ray particularly strong against an individual monster for affinity sorcerers, yes.

But keep in mind the fact there are 3 attack rolls makes for a decent chance to miss one. Especially if there is a cover bonus. Positioning to avoid cover is actually supposed to be pretty tricky, but a lot of games hand waive the penalty.

They only get 2 of them per day. Unless they burn all their resources.

Later it gets a little more gross once they get improved invisibility...then they get advantage on all their rolls. But again it is still a huge investment in reaources for them.

(Reply to #7)

Lucas_Blackstone

arnwolf666 wrote:

#11

arnwolf666

Mar 23, 2015 10:50:34

The way Elemental Affinity is worded the damage is added to the spell damage. i.e. 6d6 + cha mod. The way agonizing hex is worded it would be add cha mod to each hit. I am ruling in favor of the PC (as I generally do) until their is an official ruling to the ability. That's how I read the wording in the PHB. It does need clarification, very poorly written.

#12

QwertyAzerty

Mar 23, 2015 10:55:36

it is not that powerfull and if you want a proof, go see the DPR king tread. who are teh DPR king? who are the one with the highest Damage Per Round? IIRC the Greatsword vengeance paladin was the top DPR, Followed by greatsword fighter, then greatsword barbarian, sharpshooter Crossbow expert a little bit behind etc...

no where do we see the Fire Sorcerer scorching ray.

And remember, the paladin/fighter/barbarian can found a magical greatsword that will exponentially increase it's DPR as well, very few item increase the DPR of spells (wand of war mage increase your accuracy by +1/+2/+3, robe of the archmagi and staf of the archmagi will increase your spell DC and spell accuracy, but from my knowledge no item will add an extra 2d6 necrotic damage (like Hazirawn give to the greatsword user) THere is no feat (as of now, season 2) that increase your spellcasting capacity, yes spell sniper, but it's not as good as sharp shooter is (no -5 to hit to increase damage by +10 option) There is no such thing as a magical version of great weapon fighting or polearm master. Some might argue that war caster is usefull but how many time does your sorcerer casting spell from the back line receive the opportunity to have an Attack of Opportunity?

(Reply to #11)

Lucas_Blackstone

arnwolf666 wrote:

#14

jaelis

Mar 23, 2015 11:40:33

I feel someone should meantion Mearls' comment on the topic:

@OmgdestroyedMagic Missile, three missiles, three targets: Separate damage rolls, or once for all of them? What about a 2-1 missile split? one damage roll per target — Mike Mearls (@mikemearls) July 12, 2014

(Reply to #14)

Lucas_Blackstone

jaelis wrote:

#16

Noctaem

Mar 23, 2015 11:58:04

jaelis wrote:

#17

jaelis

Mar 23, 2015 12:49:13

I'm not going to defend Mearls' conclusion, but I do think it is relevant. Yes, it is in the context of magic missile and not scorching ray, but they are both spells that have multiple damaging effects, each with separate damage rolls. If you can only apply Empowered Evocation once per creature that you target with magic missiles, then surely you can only apply Elemental Affinity once per creature you target with scorching ray.

#18

Byakugan01

Mar 23, 2015 13:15:27

Magic missile and scorching ray are intrinsically different.

If you target a creature with 2 magic missiles, they are 'hit' 1 time and take 2d4+2. There is no hit roll and the missiles all strike simultaneously. When you hit 3 targets, you are causing 3 distinct 'hits' so you get the bonus on each target.

Scorching ray requires a discreet attack roll for each ray. Ie..attack roll...roll 2d6+X....another attack roll....2d6+x. ..etc.

it may be confusing because people tend to speed up their combat by rolling the whole fistfull of dice. Creating the illusion that your only causing damage once.

#19

jaelis

Mar 23, 2015 13:29:13

If you target a creature with 2 magic missiles, they are 'hit' 1 time and take 2d4+2. There is no hit roll and the missiles all strike simultaneously. When you hit 3 targets, you are causing 3 distinct 'hits' so you get the bonus on each target.

#20

Knight_Marshal

Mar 23, 2015 17:28:50

jaelis wrote:

#21

RulesJD

Mar 23, 2015 17:29:40

MM is wrong, and Jeremy Crawford has tweeted about it. The +to damage from a classes ability is added to each damage roll. You can either trust me or I'll spend time later to get the tweet. It is on Sage Advice.

Thus, SR is 3 seperate damage rolls (3 of 2d6). If all hit, then add the + to damage for each ray.

#22

jaelis

Mar 23, 2015 18:01:31

RulesJD wrote:

#23

Byakugan01

Mar 23, 2015 21:08:33

My understanding is magic missile lets you pick between 1 and 3 targets...then the spell affects them according to the number of darts they are hit with. That is the logic Mearls seems to have used anyways. I don't think I actually agree with his logic.

"The darts all hit simultaneously, and you can direct them all to hit one target or several" Actually the spell is worded a little contradictory to itself if interpreted a different way.

SR is different because attack rolls are always made in a 'non-simultaneous' sequence. Whenever you roll an attack, then you roll damage, then you roll your next attack roll, then you roll damage, etc...

A better question is 'Does it seem OP for a 11th level wizard to get +10 damage on a 3d4+8 spell that costs a spell slot?" 3d4+18 (avg 25) for a spell slot, versus a cantrip fire bolt at 3d10+5 (avg 22.5) Lets pretend the chance of crit is a wash with the MM bonus of not having to roll. 1st level spells are the LEAST of your problems at this level.

Sorc with SR can happen at a lot lower level, but it is still only a couple times per day. Not that big of a deal.

#24

CahPahkah

Mar 24, 2015 12:13:17

The actual issue in that question is that Mearles was talking about Impowered Evocation, not Elemental Affinity, and he's subsequently been overruled by Jeremy Crawford anyway.

*Edited

#25

RulesJD

Mar 24, 2015 11:18:33

CahPahkah wrote:

#26

CahPahkah

Mar 24, 2015 12:11:50

RulesJD wrote:

(Reply to #26)

arnwolf666

CahPahkah wrote:

(Reply to #26)

Coredump00

CahPahkah wrote:

(Reply to #28)

arnwolf666

Coredump00 wrote: