Sorcerer Rules Option

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

NirvanS

Dec 10, 2014 20:09:56

Reading DMG about adding new option, thinking of Sorcerer having ability to change spell damage type between Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, and Radiant.

 

Should it cost Sorcery Points or a natural ability?

When should it be given?

 

#2

Novacat

Dec 11, 2014 0:47:18

Spending one sorcery point to change a spell's damage type seems reasonable for a metamagic ability, which the sorcerer player could choose as one of his metamagic options.

 

Be aware that this can lead to some broken combos, such as if a dragon sorcerer picks up Eldritch Blast and the Elemental Adept feat. Just something to watch out for if you're going to be allowing this ability in your game.

#3

bonethug0108

Dec 11, 2014 3:37:00

Well he left out force and psychic damage, which would avoid the abuse of EB. I would leave out radiant and necrotic also(so just acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, and thunder), make it a metamagic ability worth 1-2 points to use(I'm leaning to 1) and call it Elemental Spell or something. That would tie in with an elemental type of sorcerer. You don't want to make it free because that would make it too easy to overcome damage resistances.

 

Edit:

As a bonus I believe this works with Elemental Affinity, which would even out the dragon bloodlines(I added poison to the allowed list of damage type changes for this reason). I know this was a HUGE issue when it came to picking a bloodline.

(Reply to #3)

NirvanS

[quote="bonethug0108"]

Well he left out force and psychic damage, which would avoid the abuse of EB. I would leave out radiant and necrotic also(so just acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, and thunder), make it a metamagic ability worth 1-2 points to use(I'm leaning to 1) and call it Elemental Spell or something. That would tie in with an elemental type of sorcerer. You don't want to make it free because that would make it too easy to overcome damage resistances.

 

I think the Sorcerers innate ability should allow change of elemental type. It also compensates for their finite number of spells

Your right about excluding necrotic and radiant. 

I think the Elemental Metamagic (or whatever) should be an automatic Metamagic, not one that needs to be selected though. Or increase the number of Metamagics earned to 5

#5

bonethug0108

Dec 11, 2014 8:54:17 		I was considering upping the number of metamagics you get, but giving it to every sorcerer wouldn't hurt. Either way it should still cost a spell point to use.
#6

Sorxores

Dec 11, 2014 12:23:42

I see 2 different version of this ability:

 

One that would be FREE, no metamagic cost, no feat cost, no time per day and you would receive it at level 1 when you choose your dragon blood type.

When you learn spell using one of the 5 dragon elements (fire, cold, lightning, poison or acid) you can learn that spell with a different dragon elements. So when you reach lvl 5 instead of learning fireball, you could learn Acidball, acting EXACTLY like fireball, except dealing acid damage, and melting flammable object. and you cannot cast fireball. AT level 6 if you want to learn fireball you could, but then you will ahve 2 spell very similar (acid and fireball) Basically this option simply increase the spell list of the sorcerer you can still only choose 15 spell total of them. Since this version is limited to dragon type, disintegrate and Eldrtich BLast stay a force spell and cannot be changed to your favored type.

 

The other version would be a metamagic that would cost 1 points. and would allow you to change ANY damage spell into your dragon element. So you learn fireball, and you can cast fireball no problem, or you could spend 1 sorcerer point and cast acidball instead. This version increase your amount of spell knows, and would allows you to cast a fire version of disintegrate or an cold version of eldritch blast. Yes you could "abuse" Eldritch blast, by spending a feat for Magic initiate to gain Hex and Eldritch blast, then by spending 1 sorcerer point per eldritch blast cast add +5 damage (+10 at levle 5, +15 at level 11 and +20 damage at level 17) but I don'T see that as being that powerfull considering you need to spend a feat, and it cost 1 sorcerer point PER casting and the damage scale with your character level (you don'T gain +20 damage at lvl 4, only once you reach lvl 17, when you cast a cantrip, instead of casting Scorching ray who produce 4 ray as a spell lvl 3 (so level 5)

 

My prefered version is the first version, the free one that increase the spell list of the sorcerer without increasing the power of the sorcerer, it simply allows the sorcerer to choose a different elemental type other then Fire. Technically both version could go exist.

#7

NirvanS

Dec 11, 2014 14:39:52

I think all Sorcerers should get the ability to change element type of spell and cost 1 point to cast. There is already a severe limit on spell selection. To have now to choose fireball, acidball, etc is hampering the sorcerer even more

 

It should be an automatic Metamagic costing 1 point to use along with 2 others at 3rd level

#8

Macv12

Dec 11, 2014 15:49:55

In general, this seems like a reasonable ability. The thing that would make me hesitant is that all the best damage options are fire spells, which is balanced by the fact that so many powerul enemies resist fire. Grabbing Scorching Ray and being able to change it at will to whatever the enemy is weak to would offer ridiculous damage more often than anyone's supposed to have it.

 

I think 1 spell point per slot level would be more balanced. The effect of this is very similar to Twin Spell against a single target instead of two. It's also the whole purpose of the Chromatic Orb spell, after all.

(Reply to #8)

bonethug0108

Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #8)

NirvanS

Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #10)

Macv12

NirvanS wrote:
#12

1eejit

Dec 12, 2014 4:42:45

I'd have it as a metamagic option costing half the spell-slot level used, rounded up rather than 1 or 1/level.

 

Changing type is quite powerful, particularly when you consider that the abundance of Fire damage spells correlates to many MM creatures having Fire Immunity or Resistance.

#13

Sorxores

Dec 12, 2014 5:01:27

Macv12 wrote:
#14

Macv12

Dec 12, 2014 6:22:51

Ignoring Draconic damage bonus (Scorching Ray just illustrates the worst exploit of this feature), you're talking about an option to do double damage at will. Convert a resisted type into a neutral one (x2 damage), a neutral one into a vulnerability (x2), or a resisted into a vulnerability (x4). That's why I said it's equivalent to twin spell. This isn't just a flavor option, it's extremely powerful. It's just even better for Draconic Sorcs and their fickle damage boost. If it were my table, I wouldn't settle for anything less than 1SP/slot level. Otherwise there's no cost/benefit analysis going on, it's just stupid to not use this option every time. I would agree with a lower cost if you could only convert spells to your Draconic type, since it wouldn't be as abusable,

and you'd still need to invest in multiple spells if you wanted to be prepared for any situation.

 

The obvious solution would be to just make more spells to take advantage of different damage types, without making them all converted fire ones. Fire does big indiscriminate damage, lightning does big targeted damage, cold does less damage but limits mobility, etc. Just give each element a reason for choosing it instead of something else. There should be a reason to choose one ancestry instead of another, and currently there isn't. Wild Sorcs can make do with the current list, but more options never hurts.

 

EDIT: Sorxores, the post I responded to was arguing a different stance than yours. Learning another damage type instead of the default - like Acidball instead of Fireball - would also be perfectly fine to me.

#15

Trance-Zg

Dec 13, 2014 10:17:06

Metamagic ability(dragon sorcerers only) you can turn damage type of any spell while casting into damage type of your dragon ancestry.

 

no cost but uses one of your metamagic learning slots.

 

(Reply to #14)

NirvanS

Your right, it would be major OP. Regardless of spell point cost, what if you only allow one type of elemental exchange. You can't exchange between all the elements. That way a person can't have access and use the best damage type to every creature. I.E. Fire<>Cold Fire<>Acid Lightning<>Acid Etc
#17

Psikerlord

Dec 14, 2014 0:42:33

 

I think this is an ability all sorcerors should get for free, and it shouldnt cost anything point wise, perhaps instead recharges on a short rest. Very flavorful, rarely any practical utility, until you get high level. Even then, so what, it just allows sorcerors some much needed flexibility in spell choice and dragon origin.

#18

Undrhil

Dec 14, 2014 1:33:48

Why should Sorcerers have this ability for free?

 

I can see a Dragon sorcerer having the ability (at a higher level) to change a damage type of a spell to be the same as their Dragon type.

 

I could see a Wild Mage having the ability to change the damage type of a spell to a random damage type (again, at a higher level.)

 

I would suggest these abilities costing sorcery points, or have the change be "permanent" but only being able to use this ability a number of times per day equal to CHA modifier.

 

I can also see a Wizard being able to spend downtime days researching in order to cast a known spell with a different damage type.

#19

NirvanS

Dec 14, 2014 6:27:07

I could see it used based on charisma modifier. 

After short rest regain 1/2 used. Regain all after long rest?  Or regain after long rest only?

Would say after long rest.

 

1.  Ability to change elemental type gain at 15th level

2.   Dragon sorcerers can select ONE elemental type that can be exchanged for their dragon sorcerer elemental type

3.   Wild Sorcerers can choose any 2 elemental type based spells to switch between

4.   Number times allowed based on Charisma modifier

5.   Regain all after long rest

6.   Spell Point cost none or One?

#20

ScuroNotte

Dec 20, 2014 17:17:37

Changing elemental types can be overpowering from what I read. The reason why most spells are fire damage is that many powerful creatures are resistant to fire damage. Changing this could result in severely weakening opponents.

 

That said, i could see how Dragon Sorcerers can complain that they are forced to take Fire Dragon as other Dragons types lack spells. If a Dragon Sorcerer can select an elemental type of spell and able to change it to his/her Dragon type elemen is permitted, it should be with limitations. Make it available between 10th and 15th level. The number of times it can be used will be based on HALF your Charisma modifier, rounded upward at no Sorcery Point cost.

 

Limitations:

Only 1 element can be switched with the Dragon's type, Excluding Fire Dragons as they already have many fire based spells

Unable to use with any metamagic er as it is considerd a metamagic ability and connot be combined with another metamagic unless stated so in the metamagic description.

Only select three spells that it will work for. Not every element based spell.

 

 

Wild Sorcerers should be excluded from this ability. But to even the playing field, they could either be given more spells known or be alloted 4 sorcery point recovery after short rest between 10th and 15th level. This is in addition to one already given at 20th level. Can't think what other option are possible.

 

This is from someone who always played a fighter so take with a grain of salt.

 

P.S.   And to really upset the Dragon Sorcerers who say Wild Sorcerers are weak. Give the Wild Sorcerers both extra spells known and Sorcery point recovery.. Just to see them complain more...lol

 

#21

Vyrelion

Dec 22, 2014 8:59:32

My houserule could be a 1st level free feature for both draconic and wild sorcs.

Dragon Sorcerer: when you learn a new spell that deals elemental (fire,cold, acid, poison, lightning) damage, you can make an Intelligence(Arcana) check with DC 10+spell level. If you succeed, you can learn that spell as a variant that deals your bloodline damage type instead.
ex. Learning Fireball as a Black dragon sorcerer; roll Arcana DC13; success means you learned Poisonball instead.

Wild Sorcerer: whenever you learn a spell that deals elemental (fire, cold, acid, poison, lightning) damage, you MUST roll 1d6 to determine the type of damage the variant spell you actually learn will inflict. If you roll a 6, you can choose any type of damage.
Ex. Learning Fireball; roll 1d6, you get a 5; this means you learn Lightningball instead.

 

 

#22

Stormborn20

Dec 21, 2014 10:30:29

Changing the damage type around just doesn't make sense to me.  Consider the first spell in the book, acid splash.  You conjure a bubble of acid which is hurled toward a target and splashes onto a neighboring creature.  What does it mean to make that do lightning damage?  How is that a similar spell in anyway sensible way apart from the numerical consequences?

(Reply to #22)

Vyrelion

Stormborn20 wrote: