Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 smbakeresq Feb 23, 2015 10:50:06	My son age 9 wants to be a spear and shield elf fighter like he saw on the Hobbit.  Currently under the rules a pikeman with a shield cant exist, the pike takes two hands and their is no provision for using a shield strapped to your arm and supported on your shoulder.  A spear and shield build is fine, but the spear is just an ok weapon.  He also wants to use the shield as a weapon sometimes, like he has seen in the movies.  Of course for my son I would break any rules in the game to keep it fun, but then I want to teach him that rules are rules also, I want to prevent him from expecting cheese interpretations.  So I worked this out, and want to see what people think of it.   First off, a shield can be supported on a shoulder and forearm, allowing use of the shield hand, but only for the use of the spear and pike.  This makes phalanx formations and tactics possible.  It also allows the spear to use its versatile property.  This seems like a minor houserule.  I do think this should somehow be in the game as we have all seen this in practice, no one should use a spear one handed with a shield now except for flavor.  I know its a game but a Hoplite would use both hands on his spear and also use the shield, hung from his shoulder and secured to his forearm.  I would make a player state he is using the shield in this way, therefore you cant just drop it for free as a mnior penalty.   Using your shield as a weapon I have seen various opinions.  It seems to me that under the currect improvised weapon rules, crashing into someone using your shield should use your profiecency bonus, the damage should be like a great club.  Using your shield to hit someone should be equivalent to club, allowing it to be a equivalent to a club means you could give it the light property and allow it to be used with two weapon fighting, like a Roman Legionare with a short sword.  Proficiency in the use of a shield to me implies in beng able to use it all the way, not just for defense.  It also makes for more interesting and effective two weapon builds, under the current rules they lag behind the great weapon fighters, moreso when the Great Weapon feat comes into play.  It also makes good use of the Champion build traits, they could stack the two weapon fighting and dueling fighter class abilities.  As always the two-weapon fighter builds puts pressure on your bonus actions, but thats just the way it is.   What my son is having great fun with is charging into the fray using the spear or shield bash, and then dropping the spear and drawing the short sword and using two weapon fighting when he can, using the fighters two weapons style.  He just loves bashing them with the shield.     I want peoples opinions as to these rules" interpretations."  I put them here because the rules sections get the most and best opinions, IMO.  Thanks in advance.
#2 jaelis Feb 23, 2015 11:08:43	You can say that a character with martial weapon proficiency can use the spear/shield combo you're talking about to get 1d8 damage. Nothing unbalanced, really. Personally I'd keep the thrown damage at 1d6.   Using a shield as a light 1d4 weapon is pretty strong. I'd probably allow it with a feat, not so different then from the polearm feat.
#3 jonathonhawke Feb 23, 2015 12:38:42	A shield can be used as an improvised weapon, dealing 1d4 damage with no proficiency.  If the DM rules that a shield is similar to a club (I wouldn't, personally), than the stats for club can apply, including proficiency.
#4 Coredump00 Feb 23, 2015 13:28:39	I think strapping the shield in such away as to allow using both hands on the spear, would pretty much negate any ability to use the shield as a weapon.   That said, the game is about having fun, and he is nine....     As for the style in general, spear and shield was effective for *group* tactics..... in a one on one it kinda sucks...  especially if the other guy has a shield or any armor.
#5 smbakeresq Feb 23, 2015 14:32:45	I think these groups work:   Shield and spear - spear used as versatile weapon d8 dmg   Crashing into them with shield d8 (proficient)   Bashing them with shield d4 - proficient though.   Bashing them with shield using two weapon rules - d4 dmg, but not defense bonus of shield to start of next turn and must have light weapon in other hand.   Spending dual weapon feat - keep shield bonus but otherwise unchanged.     So at 5th level, you get the feat so you can use a weapon and a shield, with the shield staying at d4 and you get the shield bonus too.  You are giving up using a regular weapon in the off hand for the use of shield.     We need more veratile shield rules
#6 guachi Feb 23, 2015 16:31:47	A spear does the damage it does (1d6 one-handed/1d8 two-handed) because it is a simple weapon. A longsword does the damage it does (1d8 one-handed/1d10 two-handed) because it is a martial weapon. I can see no reason why you couldn't make a "martial spear" that did 1d8/1d10 damage. Perhaps you could say it can't be thrown because it is too large, or something. In that case, it's identical to a longsword but it's piercing damage not slashing damage.   Also, if your son wishes to use the shield as a weapon you can tell him about the Shield Mastery feat that enables him to bash a target to the ground as a bonus action. He can use the bonus action to knock an opponent down and then attack with the spear at advantage. The bash may not do damage directly, but it certainly makes it easier for everyone else to do damage.
#7 FighterFan Feb 25, 2015 4:45:21	I agree to guachi, not so many new rules needed, except for the "martial spear." Just call it "elven warpike" or something like that and give it 1d8/1d10 versatile.   In case you're playing with your son alone - do what you want. But as soon as others will join, everybody will come along with some request for new rules, so better keep it at a minimum.
#8 Jenks Feb 25, 2015 6:21:24	You could also just make a short spear with 1d6 damage, 1 handed.   Rule of cool though says keep on keeping on if your game continues to function fine. Its better to foster a life long love of RPGs than to play by RAW.
#9 strider13x Feb 25, 2015 8:53:35	Also look at Attack options in the PHB. Push/Shove is an option , so when he wants to Attack with the shield instead of HP he can knock the opponent down or push them of the ledge.
#10 Zyph Feb 25, 2015 9:32:34	Alright, a couple of possible thoughts...   Item Rule Changes/Additions   Shield Bash: Shields may be used as a weapon. When used in this fashion they do not grant their bonus to AC until the start of your next turn. Grasping:  An item with the "grasping" property allows the character to use the item while weilding a versatile weapon with two hands   Item Changes/Additions   Large Shield (Formerly "Shield"):  +2 AC. 1d6 bludgeoning damage, versatile (1d8)   Small Shield:  +1 AC. 1d4 bludgeon damage. Light. Grasping   Partisan: Martial Weapon, 1d8 piercing damage, versatile (1d10)   Cestus: Martial Weapon, 1d4 damage bludgeon damage. Light. Grasping   Feat Changes   Shield Master: As a Bonus Action you may make an attack with your shield. Attacking in this fashion does not negate the shield's bonus to your AC.   -------------------------------------------------------   This allows you the ability to attack with the shield, but doesn't make it over powered by making it both a weapon AND armor in the same round TYPICALLY.   The vesatile feature on the large shield allows for the "grab ahold and ram into someone with your shield" idea, with it doing additional damage.   The light feature on the Small Shield allows for the potential "dual weidling" of a shield   The lower AC and damage for the small shield balances its ability to give you an extra attack as a bonus action and being able to get extra damage out of your versatile weapons.   "Grasping" provides a way to still make use of those versatile weapons while weilding your shield (also makes a good mechanic for "gauntlet" type wepaons).   The Partisan is simply just implimenting a "martial" spear that isn't an actual "reach" style pole arm. Essentially a higher quality construction/design spear than what your common folk would take up as part of the militia.   Finally, the change to shield master just helps the flavor a bit. It already lets you use a bonus action to knock someone down, now it simply gives you the option to do an extra attack for a little extra damage as opposed to knocking them down if you so choose.
#11 AndyDay Feb 25, 2015 12:59:42	I wasn't able to stay awake through the Hobbit, but in most movies, smashing somebody with a shield is a precursor to finishing them off with your real weapon. This is exemplified by the Shield Mastery feat, which allows you to knock an opponent back/down as a bonus action. That seems like a perfect fit for your shield attack.   If a player was obsessed with using the shield to do damage, I'd call it an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons do D4. I wouldn't sweat whether it's light or not.   Then, just re-skin a longsword and call it a spear.   All those a great ideas.   At my table, I house-ruled so that Polearm Mastery works for spears. AFter all, it works for 1/4 Staves, which (rediculously) can be used 1 handed or 2 handed, just like spears. Given this interpretation, if your elf fighter had Polearm Mastery, a spear, and Shield mastery, he'd get a bevvy of interesting options.
#12 Greenstone.Walker Feb 26, 2015 13:29:34	Jenks wrote:
#13 Jamwes Feb 26, 2015 13:38:25	guachi wrote: