Spear with Finesse?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

AdrianLP

Jan 21, 2015 23:29:48

Would it be reasonable to make a spear with the finesse property?

 

Example:

Spear 6 gp 1d8 piercing 3 lb. Finesse, Two-handed

 

Note: No thrown property and two-handed only

 

I'm trying to create a Prince Oberyn-like character. A lightly armoured fighter who wields a two-handed spear as his primary weapon. I'll need to have a high dex to make up for wearing only leather armour, and ideally I'd like the weapon usage to be based on his dexterity and not make a brute-force character.

#2

EzechielDantan

Jan 22, 2015 4:10:50

AdrianLP wrote:
#3

Timmee

Jan 22, 2015 4:34:31

We've all seen kung fu movies. Tiny, wiry Jackie Chan-like dudes and dudettes twirling spears and halbard-like weapons like batons (albeit with rubbery action;). Why shouldn't a dex based fighter-type be able to do this? Although, I do agree with EzekielDantan. I'd allow it at my table, but if you didn't want to go monk, I might rule that the spear be a 1d6 only weapon. Lighter, thinner version so to speak.

#4

AdrianLP

Jan 22, 2015 5:35:30

EzechielDantan wrote:
#5

Vahnyu

Jan 22, 2015 5:42:25

AdrianLP wrote:
(Reply to #4)

EzechielDantan

AdrianLP wrote:
#7

Coredump00

Jan 22, 2015 9:59:25

I am torn between the d6/d8 issue....  but I would *require* it be used two-handed as a finesse weapon.

#8

guachi

Jan 22, 2015 11:22:34

From a balance standpoint, it doesn't seem bad. What options does a monk currently have for weapons? I'm honestly not up on my monk weapons and don't have my books handy. For a rogue, it's not broken at all as it's actually worse than a rapier as it's two handed.

#9

AdrianLP

Jan 22, 2015 13:14:09

Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #9)

Coredump00

AdrianLP wrote:
#11

AdrianLP

Jan 22, 2015 14:14:08

Coredump00 wrote:
#12

Synjin

Jan 22, 2015 14:19:26

AdrianLP wrote:
#13

Synjin

Jan 22, 2015 14:28:40

Also, consider Oberyn's character. Was he a bad-ass because of the spear being extra-dexterous and special? Or because he was?

 

You could reason that it's being encumbered in armor that makes you less dexterous, and no amount of light "finessable" property of a weapon will change how the wielder is able to move with that weapon. Does it make sense that someone in Medium Armor is only able to use 2 of their DEX to their AC, yet they get their full DEX to Finessed and Ranged attacks? You could houserule that in order for weapons to be considered Finesse, the wielder must have full use of their DEX, which means Light Armor only. Light Armors offer no DEX cap limit to their AC, thus reasonable to assume that it likewise offers no limits to the DEX used to attack.

#14

AdrianLP

Jan 22, 2015 15:21:00

Synjin wrote:
#15

guachi

Jan 22, 2015 15:24:05

AdrianLP wrote:
(Reply to #15)

AdrianLP

guachi wrote:
#17

Arithezoo

Jan 22, 2015 15:35:27

The question to ask yourself (as the DM), is "how is this different from what the character could already do?

 

The rapier is a one-handed finesse weapon that deals 1d8 damage.

You are considering a two-handed finesse weapon that deals 1d8 damage.

 

Sounds fine to me. 

(Reply to #11)

Coredump00

AdrianLP wrote:
#19

AdrianLP

Jan 22, 2015 16:43:49

Coredump00 wrote:
#20

Illithidbix

Jan 22, 2015 17:31:49

I think it would be fine, it's main "compeitors" are:

 

(Simple)

Spear 1 gp 1d6 piercing 3 lb. Thrown (range 20/60), versatile (1d8)

Quarterstaff 2 sp 1d6 bludgeoning 4 lb. Versatile (1d8)

 

(Martial)

Rapier 25 gp 1d8 piercing 2 lb. Finesse

 

From my understanding of the Martial Arts class feature, a Monk can use a Quarterstaff in two hands for D8 bludgeoning damage using DEX for attack and damage and still make bonus action martial arts attacks

Basically turning the Quarterstaff into a 1D8 bludgeoning damage finesse weapon when used in two hands.

 

Two main thoughts.

 

1) Finesse weapons should never go above 1D8 damage.

-So your idea is fine.

Very few monsters/spells/effects seem to care about piercing vs slashing/bludgeoning but in theory maybe a tiny change?

 

2) Would your spear be martial or simple?

Rapiers are one-handed martial weapons, so you've basically changed nothing if you make it a martial finesse weapon doing 1D8 piercing damage. Except making it two-handed and 19gp cheaper.

 

If it's simple however, you put a D8 finesse weapon in the hands of... *looks at PHB* uh... Clerics who don't get martial weapons as a domain feature and Druids and Warlocks...

Who wouldn't have it before.

(Rogues and Bards get rapier proficiency, Sorcerers and Wizards don't even get simple weapon proficiency...)

And kinda monks but they get a D8 bludgeoning finesse weapon already ... I think.

 

So yeah, I'd be cool with it, even if DEX is almost too potent atm.

(Reply to #20)

AdrianLP

Illithidbix wrote:
#22

Illithidbix

Jan 22, 2015 19:38:39

AdrianLP wrote:
#23

Synjin

Jan 23, 2015 14:39:12

AdrianLP wrote:
#24

EzechielDantan

Jan 24, 2015 4:17:17

Just allow simple melee weapons that are do not have the twohanded or the heavy property to be wielded with finesse by someone proficient with matial weapons.

Basically the same as what a monk gets but a fighter can do it in armor. 

 

If you make a houseule like this you won't have to drop one of those 'special'  spears in a dragon's hoard when you decide the character needs/deserves a magical weapon.

Just keep the spear as is, Oberyn's spear does seem like it can be thrown fairly well really. Essentially not every spear and longsword looks identical I'd rather not make a minute distinction that isn't obviously a different weapon.

#25

Captain_Kobold

Jan 24, 2015 10:11:49

Oberyn isn't as big as the Mountain, and he does use Dex a lot for dancing around, but he isn't exactly a weakling. Is there any particular reason, other than optimisation, why you need a finesse version of a spear to play an Oberyn-like character?

 

The spear he uses is pretty much what I'd consider the standard spear as given in the PHB. In the absence of a shield, it makes sense to use it two-handed as he does. No creation of new weapons required.

 

An alternative would be: leather is a pretty common component of clothing, and his costume looks like its mostly supple leather, not boiled hard as armour would be. Create the character as a monk, not using any armour.

(Reply to #14)

Coredump00

AdrianLP wrote:
(Reply to #25)

AdrianLP

Captain_Kobold wrote:
#28

AdrianLP

Jan 24, 2015 16:06:09 		Apparently in the books Oberyn has used his spear with a shield, meaning it can be used one handed. Perhaps I'll just use the default spear as presented in the d&d books.
#29

Avross

Jan 24, 2015 16:24:11

My recommendation would simply be to reflavor an existing Finesse weapon as a specially constructed spear.  (i.e. use the stats for a short sword, just call it a one handed spear)

That makes it pretty close to the OP's original idea, and you sidestep any questions about balance.

 

Yes, it's more expensive, but this both (1) compensates for the fact that it can be used by a min-maxer wishing to dump Str in favor of Dex, and (2) gives it an in-game flavor of being constructed with a higher quality.  (Oberon wouldn't just grab *any* spear off the wall, he'd test them out...find the one with the right balance, etc...)

 

Personally, I'd avoid adding Versatile (unless you're dropping the base damage one die).  None of the other finesse weapons are Versatile, and I suspect that this probably is intentional.

 

We did this with a player who wanted a saber.   Reflavoring a rapier only required us to change the damage type from piercing to slashing, and seemed to work well.

(Reply to #29)

AdrianLP

Avross wrote:
#31

Captain_Kobold

Jan 24, 2015 17:19:50

AdrianLP wrote:
#32

Avross

Jan 25, 2015 16:35:10

AdrianLP wrote:
#33

Ganymede425

Jan 27, 2015 13:06:58

If you're going for a Prince Oberyn-like character, you might be better served by just being very decadent and promiscuous.

#34

AdrianLP

Feb 01, 2015 7:56:18

I was watching a video by a fellow who does a lot of videos on weapons. From my experience in watching his videos I believe he is likely well educated on the subject. Of prince Oberyn, he suggests the weapon is a Partisan. I did some Googling and that seems about correct. A spear seems to be generally considered a piercing only weapon. Oberyn did make piercing attacks, but his weaopn is obviously bladed allowing for slashing attacks, which a partisan can do.

 

Perhaps making a partisan a martial melee weapon which does d6 (1-handed), d8 (2-handed)  and with Finesse would not be unreasonable. The Rapier, also a martial weapon, is d8 one handed with finesse, so this partisan would be less powerful than it (therefore the partisan would not be unbalanced).

 

Just a thought.

 

I may start playing soon (still don't have a group or the time), and in the end I may end up playing a wizard anyway LOL. In my 5+ years of playing older editions I've played far more wizards than anything else.

#35

AdrianLP

Feb 01, 2015 9:37:02

...as for why adding Finesse, it still makes it weaker than a rapier (you can use a rapier one handed, 1d8 damage, and have finesse), it just means I could justify flourishes as part of the usage of the weapon in combat. If it was purely strength based, there would be no need for the fancy footwork (in fact such might be a disadvantage).

(Reply to #10)

AdrianLP

Coredump00 wrote:
#37

Captain_Kobold

Feb 02, 2015 5:43:18

AdrianLP wrote:
#38

ChrisCarlson

Feb 02, 2015 6:45:34

Captain_Kobold wrote:
#39

MascisMan

Feb 02, 2015 10:42:36 		Does anyone else think Oberyns "spear" actually looks more like a Glaive?
#40

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 11:33:33

MascisMan wrote:
#41

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 11:30:07

OK, let's say I just use the stock spear, as is, I've another related question.

 

if I created a warrior whose main weapon was a spear wielded two-handed, and only used Leather armour, would this present such a huge disadvantage that it would be unwise to do?

 

I'm not into min/maxing, but if one chooses a class why ignore a good part of it's advantages (a bit like playing a wizard but choosing not to cast spells and instead using a melee weapon).

 

This is what I've built:

 

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 16
Int 11
Wis 13
Cha 16

 

Armour class: 15 (armour 11 + dex 3 + defence 1)
#42

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 13:15:33

AdrianLP wrote:
#43

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 16:29:34

If the D&D world were real, and a Fighter was to face an equally skilled opponent, would he ever choose leather armour and a two handed spear? In real life I'd think the extra mobility to be a huge advantage, but in D&D I don't see any advantage (the bonus to dexterity while using leather armour results in less AC than someone in plate with a shield).

#44

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 17:20:52

Well you're not gonna want to wear the heaviest armors if you only have a 14 Strength. There's your mobility issues as mentioned.

 

And you should probably go ahead and go studded leather over plain leather. Basically the same thing. Once you get to an 18 Dex, that's as good an AC as you can have with scale, breastplate, or even chain mail. So I don't see the problem.

 

Also, keep in mind encumbrance. THose light armos are very... well... light, in comparison to the metal stuff. That's not nuthin.

#45

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 17:33:42

ChrisCarlson wrote:
#46

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 18:20:42

AdrianLP wrote:
#47

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 18:26:00

ChrisCarlson wrote:
#48

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 18:32:39

AdrianLP wrote:
#49

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 18:39:06

ChrisCarlson wrote:
#50

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 18:44:28

It's funny how disingenuous your inital claims of not being a min-maxer were. I've smelled the trolliness out at this point. I'm done trying to help you.

#51

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 18:53:21

ChrisCarlson wrote:
#52

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 19:01:05

Is it min/maxing to think my fighter would know that plate + shield gives *far* better protection than leather and a two handed weapon, then ask if  there is any reason a real figher would choose the leather over plate + shield?

 

I would just call that sensible roleplaying.

#53

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 19:05:21

AdrianLP wrote:
#54

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 19:06:24

AdrianLP wrote:
#55

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 19:19:04

ChrisCarlson wrote:
#56

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 19:20:11

ChrisCarlson wrote:
#57

Vahnyu

Feb 03, 2015 19:58:01

The Tanky Fighter who is using a two-handed weapon probably also carries a shield and one-handed weapon, for those times when not getting damaged while still damaging back is far more important than focusing purely on damage.

#58

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 19:58:36

Ugh. Dragged back in by low willpower...

 

AdrianLP wrote:
#59

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 19:59:37

AdrianLP wrote:
#60

ChrisCarlson

Feb 03, 2015 20:11:24

Vahnyu wrote:
(Reply to #60)

Macv12

ChrisCarlson wrote:
#62

AdrianLP

Feb 03, 2015 21:34:11

Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #62)

Macv12

AdrianLP wrote:
#64

Captain_Kobold

Feb 04, 2015 5:18:07

AdrianLP wrote:
(Reply to #62)

Timborama

AdrianLP wrote:
#66

ChrisCarlson

Feb 04, 2015 7:06:29

AdrianLP wrote:
#67

Orethalion

Feb 04, 2015 9:25:54

AdrianLP wrote:
#68

Orethalion

Feb 04, 2015 9:39:31

AdrianLP wrote:
#69

Orethalion

Feb 04, 2015 9:45:08

AdrianLP wrote:
#70

RCanine

Feb 04, 2015 20:05:48

For double the fun:

 

Longspear / 1d6 piercing / finesse, two-handed, reach

 

Seems balanced compared to the whip.

#71

AdrianLP

Feb 04, 2015 20:27:36

Orethalion wrote:
#72

AdrianLP

Feb 04, 2015 20:28:49

Orethalion wrote:
#73

AdrianLP

Feb 04, 2015 20:31:18

Timborama wrote:
#74

AdrianLP

Feb 04, 2015 20:46:37

Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #73)

Macv12

AdrianLP wrote:
#76

AdrianLP

Feb 04, 2015 22:05:07

Macv12 wrote:
#77

AdrianLP

Feb 04, 2015 22:10:49

Macv12 wrote:
#78

AdrianLP

Feb 04, 2015 22:37:32

Macv12 wrote:
#79

Captain_Kobold

Feb 05, 2015 1:45:24

RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #73)

Timborama

AdrianLP wrote:
(Reply to #76)

Timborama

AdrianLP wrote:
#82

Orethalion

Feb 05, 2015 6:40:26

AdrianLP wrote:
#83

DemoMonkey

Feb 05, 2015 10:14:42

Between Oberyn (Leather & Spear) and the Mountain (Plate), at the end, only one was still breathing.

 

And it wasn't the guy with the spear.

 

Just sayin'.

 

 

(Reply to #83)

AaronOfBarbaria

DemoMonkey wrote:
(Reply to #83)

Timborama

DemoMonkey wrote:
#86

AdrianLP

Feb 05, 2015 18:34:35

DemoMonkey wrote:
#87

Orethalion

Feb 06, 2015 6:45:50

DemoMonkey wrote:
#88

Noctaem

Feb 06, 2015 7:19:34

Orethalion wrote:
#89

AdrianLP

Feb 06, 2015 11:07:49

Noctaem wrote: