Spellcasting Bonus Action Question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MascisMan Oct 09, 2014 7:52:26	In the Casting Time section, under Bonus Action, the PHB states that, "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action." Ok so I cant cast a spell as an action and then cast, say, Misty Step, as a bonus action. I get that. My question is this. Does the "you can't cast another spell" part of the rule also apply to spells cast from magic items like wands and staves? These spells are not cast in the traditional sense (somatic gestures, expending spell slots, etc.). Could I use a wand/staff as an action and also cast Misty Step as a bonus action? Thanks for the help!
#2 Overpromises Oct 09, 2014 9:03:24	MascisMan wrote:
#3 mellored Oct 09, 2014 9:14:22	MascisMan wrote:
#4 MascisMan Oct 09, 2014 9:41:34	mellored wrote:
#5 Bumamgar Oct 09, 2014 10:34:34	The Staff of Defense from LMoP I assume: Staff of Defense This slender, hollow staff is made of glass yet is as strong as oak. It weighs 3 pounds. You must be attuned to the staff to gain its benefits and cast its spells. While holding the staff, you have a +1 bonus to your Armor Class. The staff has 10 charges, which are used to fuel the spells within it. With the staff in hand, you can use your action to cast one of the following spells from the staff if the spell is on your class's spell list: mage armor (1 charge) or shield (2 charges). No components are required. The staff regains 1d6 + 4 expended charges each day at dawn. If you expend the staff's last charge, roll a d20. On a 1, the staff shatters and is destroyed. This seems pretty clear to me that the wielder of the staff is casting the spells, using their actions. The staff isn't casting anything.
#6 MascisMan Oct 09, 2014 12:07:07	Thanks Bum!
#7 Timborama Oct 09, 2014 12:16:51	Potions are not spells, though they often mimic them. But wands and staves seem to be...
#8 lawrencehoy Oct 09, 2014 22:26:19	Timborama wrote:
#9 MascisMan Oct 12, 2014 8:23:00	lawrencehoy wrote:
#10 mellored Oct 12, 2014 9:05:25	MascisMan wrote:
#11 jonathonhawke Oct 12, 2014 9:34:58	mellored wrote:
#12 paulstrait Oct 12, 2014 9:54:19	lawrencehoy wrote:
#13 lawrencehoy Oct 14, 2014 0:47:17	paulstrait wrote:
#14 paulstrait Oct 14, 2014 1:00:03	lawrencehoy wrote:
#15 lawrencehoy Oct 14, 2014 23:56:57	paulstrait wrote:
#16 MascisMan Oct 15, 2014 19:51:38	paulstrait wrote:
(Reply to #16) Winslon	Something to think about. I've run into a lot of confusion in games on this, so I wanted to share my two cents worth. Because in most wand descriptions it reads "you can cast such and such spell". It CAN be interpret that it meands you 'actually cast a spell' so spell mechanics come into play. I (and others) interpret it to just tell you what to do when you cast the spell (note it doesn't tell you how much damage the wand does with the magic missiles, so it's not a different type of spell...it only tells you the individual spell's mechanics to use with the wand). We see the real purpose as maintaining the 'Action' economy. You have to use an 'Action' to use the wand, so you won't be able to use the wand and cast another spell that uses an 'Action'. Also, think of it this. A Rogue with the Wand of Magic missiles, can use their bonus action to disengage, move, then use their action to 'Cast Magic Missile' from the wand. So why can't a wizard uses a bonus action to cast 'Misty Step', teleport and then use his action to 'Cast Magic Missile' from the wand? If you were to treat the wand as NOT being able to work if a wizard casts spell with a bonus actoin, then frankly it would be far more powerful in the hands of Fighters, Rogues, and such, rather than in the hands of a wizard, who by that interpretation wouldn't be able to use their form of 'bonus actions' (spells) to do the same thing other classes can do with their abilities. I feel strongly, that for ballance, spell casters should be able to cast a spell with a bonus action, and then be able to also 'use a magic item' that creates a 'spell like' ability. ---- Now...start Multi Classing and have a Fighter/Wizard with an Action Surge being able to cast a spell as an action, then use action surge to use the wand...or for that matter, being able to cast TWO Fireballs, in a single round? Would 'THAT' violate the 'You can't cast another spell during the same turn' rule? This game is filled with contradictions...Trust your DM, and as long as the same rules are used for the monsters and the players, enjoy what ever their interpretation may be.
#18 paulstrait Apr 04, 2015 12:08:52	Winslon wrote:
(Reply to #18) Winslon	paulstrait wrote:
#20 paulstrait Apr 04, 2015 17:36:58	Winslon wrote:
(Reply to #20) Winslon	I would have hoped it was quite clear that other classes have things they can do that nearly duplicate what a wizard can do, as in my example of Cunning Action vs. Misty Step. As I said. with the way that ya'll are interpreting the rule, I see no reason to be a wizard, or at least a wizard wielding a wand of magic missiles. As this will be a common occurance this season in the Adventurers League, I'm sure numerous players and DM's will be looking here for interpretations. Hopefully this might help solicite a clarification from WoTC on the subject.
#22 paulstrait Apr 05, 2015 1:06:10	Winslon wrote:
#23 Winslon Apr 05, 2015 13:20:45	To be clear: I am absolutely challenging the understanding that people have on how items that 'allow you to cast a spell' are interpretted. I am not offering a 'home rule'. I am stating that I think many people have read far too much into the Rules Lawyering of magic items. Enough that it effects ballance, which is always my indicator that something is probably being interpretted incorrectly. To put this in perspective, I am the Local Coordinator for Houston for the Adventurers League. I have run (as of Apr 1) 106 Adventures Leagues games, and coordinated 2 dozen DM's and over 200 players in over 300 more AL games. There are many of us who feel the items in question feel that the phrase 'cast a spell' used in the magic items description is simply done to save printing space, so that WoTC didn't have to rewrite the spell's effect for each item in question. I know it can be quite contentious, and I personally would like a much more clear understanding of the use of magic items myself. As I've stated in my examples (and I understand your argument that not all classes are equal), interpreting magic items to do nothing more than grant you the ability to 'cast a spell' in which you then have to treat it in conjunction with casting 'slotted spells', places casters at an EXTREME disadvantage when using ANY magic item that other non-casting classes aren't faced with. It is THAT imballance which strengthens many of our beliefs that far too many players are reading into the rules far to much by declaring that a wand should be treated as actually casting a spell. As it was said earlier, the Action Econmy is still in place. It's the Spell economy that is called into question. And when other classes, can use their abilities AND a magic item, but a Caster (who's abilities are SPELLS) cannot, then I feel there is definately a need to discuss the matter. At the very least, (as I've stated) players and DM's need to be partucularily diplomatic, as they (and as I have) will encounter different interpretations on how magic items (especially wands) should be used. When in doubt, you should clarify the issue with your table, before the situation may arrise (as we do).
#24 Winslon Apr 05, 2015 13:24:36	On a side note: the Adventurers League is not 'CANON'. The Dm's and Organizers are often wrong. It is all volunteers. We do our best to keep up with the numerous interpretations and FAQ's that permeate the internet, but it is not possible for a well rounded person to know every nuance of the rules. That being said, there is no 'test' DM's take in the AL. There are a lot of 'table rules' that I have encountered throughout the league. It is imperative that players and DM's work together to understand and more importantly be tollerant of the different understandings. Especially when that DM is spending their own money, time and resources to run an event for a bunch of strangers.
#25 paulstrait Apr 05, 2015 13:39:40	Winslon wrote:
#26 jaelis Apr 05, 2015 14:35:38	Have to say, I agree that casting a spell from an item should work like casting the spell with a slot, except as noted. That's how the description reads to me, I wouldn't get up in arms about it either way, but if you ask me what's the book rule, I'd have said it counts as casting a spell, and you couldn't do it in the same turn as a bonus action spell.
(Reply to #25) Winslon	paulstrait wrote:
(Reply to #26) Winslon	jaelis wrote:
#29 jaelis Apr 05, 2015 19:35:07	Winslon wrote:
(Reply to #29) Winslon	jaelis wrote:
#31 jaelis Apr 05, 2015 20:17:51	Winslon wrote:
#32 paulstrait Apr 05, 2015 20:40:09	Winslon wrote:
#33 jonathonhawke Apr 05, 2015 23:33:53	When using a wand, are you using the Cast a Spell action or the Use an Item action?
#34 paulstrait Apr 06, 2015 0:02:41	jonathonhawke wrote:
(Reply to #33) Winslon	jonathonhawke wrote:
#36 Hamenopi Apr 06, 2015 10:56:26	"Can you cast Misty Step and use a Wand of Magic Missiles on the same round?" "Sure!" - Hamenopi
#37 paulstrait Apr 06, 2015 12:33:09	Winslon wrote:
#38 Winslon Apr 06, 2015 12:52:22	thank you for correcting me on Wand of Paralysis over Wand of Paralyzation. I however find it interesting how freely your willing to change how the Wand of Wonder works to fit within your understanding, while with mine, I don't have to change anything, and all wands work just fine.
#39 paulstrait Apr 06, 2015 13:25:17	Winslon wrote:
#40 Winslon Apr 06, 2015 13:29:18	DMG p. 241: Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration.
#41 paulstrait Apr 06, 2015 13:46:01	Winslon wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

MascisMan

Oct 09, 2014 7:52:26

In the Casting Time section, under Bonus Action, the PHB states that, "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

Ok so I cant cast a spell as an action and then cast, say, Misty Step, as a bonus action. I get that.

My question is this. Does the "you can't cast another spell" part of the rule also apply to spells cast from magic items like wands and staves? These spells are not cast in the traditional sense (somatic gestures, expending spell slots, etc.). Could I use a wand/staff as an action and also cast Misty Step as a bonus action?

Thanks for the help!

Overpromises

Oct 09, 2014 9:03:24

MascisMan wrote:

mellored

Oct 09, 2014 9:14:22

MascisMan wrote:

MascisMan

Oct 09, 2014 9:41:34

mellored wrote:

Bumamgar

Oct 09, 2014 10:34:34

The Staff of Defense from LMoP I assume:

Staff of Defense
This slender, hollow staff is made of glass yet is as strong as oak. It weighs 3 pounds. You must be attuned to the staff to gain its benefits and cast its spells.
While holding the staff, you have a +1 bonus to your Armor Class.
The staff has 10 charges, which are used to fuel the spells within it. With the staff in hand, you can use your action to cast one of the following spells from the staff if the spell is on your class's spell list: mage armor (1 charge) or shield (2 charges). No components are required.
The staff regains 1d6 + 4 expended charges each day at dawn. If you expend the staff's last charge, roll a d20. On a 1, the staff shatters and is destroyed.

This seems pretty clear to me that the wielder of the staff is casting the spells, using their actions. The staff isn't casting anything.

MascisMan

Oct 09, 2014 12:07:07

Thanks Bum!

Timborama

Oct 09, 2014 12:16:51

Potions are not spells, though they often mimic them.

But wands and staves seem to be...

lawrencehoy

Oct 09, 2014 22:26:19

Timborama wrote:

MascisMan

Oct 12, 2014 8:23:00

lawrencehoy wrote:

#10

mellored

Oct 12, 2014 9:05:25

MascisMan wrote:

#11

jonathonhawke

Oct 12, 2014 9:34:58

mellored wrote:

#12

paulstrait

Oct 12, 2014 9:54:19

lawrencehoy wrote:

#13

lawrencehoy

Oct 14, 2014 0:47:17

paulstrait wrote:

#14

paulstrait

Oct 14, 2014 1:00:03

lawrencehoy wrote:

#15

lawrencehoy

Oct 14, 2014 23:56:57

paulstrait wrote:

#16

MascisMan

Oct 15, 2014 19:51:38

paulstrait wrote:

(Reply to #16)

Winslon

Something to think about.

I've run into a lot of confusion in games on this, so I wanted to share my two cents worth. Because in most wand descriptions it reads "you can cast such and such spell". It CAN be interpret that it meands you 'actually cast a spell' so spell mechanics come into play.

I (and others) interpret it to just tell you what to do when you cast the spell (note it doesn't tell you how much damage the wand does with the magic missiles, so it's not a different type of spell...it only tells you the individual spell's mechanics to use with the wand). We see the real purpose as maintaining the 'Action' economy. You have to use an 'Action' to use the wand, so you won't be able to use the wand and cast another spell that uses an 'Action'.

Also, think of it this. A Rogue with the Wand of Magic missiles, can use their bonus action to disengage, move, then use their action to 'Cast Magic Missile' from the wand.

So why can't a wizard uses a bonus action to cast 'Misty Step', teleport and then use his action to 'Cast Magic Missile' from the wand?

If you were to treat the wand as NOT being able to work if a wizard casts spell with a bonus actoin, then frankly it would be far more powerful in the hands of Fighters, Rogues, and such, rather than in the hands of a wizard, who by that interpretation wouldn't be able to use their form of 'bonus actions' (spells) to do the same thing other classes can do with their abilities.

I feel strongly, that for ballance, spell casters should be able to cast a spell with a bonus action, and then be able to also 'use a magic item' that creates a 'spell like' ability.

---- Now...start Multi Classing and have a Fighter/Wizard with an Action Surge being able to cast a spell as an action, then use action surge to use the wand...or for that matter, being able to cast TWO Fireballs, in a single round? Would 'THAT' violate the 'You can't cast another spell during the same turn' rule? This game is filled with contradictions...Trust your DM, and as long as the same rules are used for the monsters and the players, enjoy what ever their interpretation may be.

#18

paulstrait

Apr 04, 2015 12:08:52

Winslon wrote:

(Reply to #18)

Winslon

paulstrait wrote:

#20

paulstrait

Apr 04, 2015 17:36:58

Winslon wrote:

(Reply to #20)

Winslon

I would have hoped it was quite clear that other classes have things they can do that nearly duplicate what a wizard can do, as in my example of Cunning Action vs. Misty Step.

As I said. with the way that ya'll are interpreting the rule, I see no reason to be a wizard, or at least a wizard wielding a wand of magic missiles.

As this will be a common occurance this season in the Adventurers League, I'm sure numerous players and DM's will be looking here for interpretations. Hopefully this might help solicite a clarification from WoTC on the subject.

#22

paulstrait

Apr 05, 2015 1:06:10

Winslon wrote:

#23

Winslon

Apr 05, 2015 13:20:45

To be clear:

I am absolutely challenging the understanding that people have on how items that 'allow you to cast a spell' are interpretted. I am not offering a 'home rule'. I am stating that I think many people have read far too much into the Rules Lawyering of magic items. Enough that it effects ballance, which is always my indicator that something is probably being interpretted incorrectly.

To put this in perspective, I am the Local Coordinator for Houston for the Adventurers League. I have run (as of Apr 1) 106 Adventures Leagues games, and coordinated 2 dozen DM's and over 200 players in over 300 more AL games.

There are many of us who feel the items in question feel that the phrase 'cast a spell' used in the magic items description is simply done to save printing space, so that WoTC didn't have to rewrite the spell's effect for each item in question.

I know it can be quite contentious, and I personally would like a much more clear understanding of the use of magic items myself.

As I've stated in my examples (and I understand your argument that not all classes are equal), interpreting magic items to do nothing more than grant you the ability to 'cast a spell' in which you then have to treat it in conjunction with casting 'slotted spells', places casters at an EXTREME disadvantage when using ANY magic item that other non-casting classes aren't faced with.

It is THAT imballance which strengthens many of our beliefs that far too many players are reading into the rules far to much by declaring that a wand should be treated as actually casting a spell.

As it was said earlier, the Action Econmy is still in place. It's the Spell economy that is called into question. And when other classes, can use their abilities AND a magic item, but a Caster (who's abilities are SPELLS) cannot, then I feel there is definately a need to discuss the matter.

At the very least, (as I've stated) players and DM's need to be partucularily diplomatic, as they (and as I have) will encounter different interpretations on how magic items (especially wands) should be used.

When in doubt, you should clarify the issue with your table, before the situation may arrise (as we do).

#24

Winslon

Apr 05, 2015 13:24:36

On a side note: the Adventurers League is not 'CANON'. The Dm's and Organizers are often wrong. It is all volunteers. We do our best to keep up with the numerous interpretations and FAQ's that permeate the internet, but it is not possible for a well rounded person to know every nuance of the rules.

That being said, there is no 'test' DM's take in the AL. There are a lot of 'table rules' that I have encountered throughout the league. It is imperative that players and DM's work together to understand and more importantly be tollerant of the different understandings. Especially when that DM is spending their own money, time and resources to run an event for a bunch of strangers.

#25

paulstrait

Apr 05, 2015 13:39:40

Winslon wrote:

#26

jaelis

Apr 05, 2015 14:35:38

Have to say, I agree that casting a spell from an item should work like casting the spell with a slot, except as noted. That's how the description reads to me, I wouldn't get up in arms about it either way, but if you ask me what's the book rule, I'd have said it counts as casting a spell, and you couldn't do it in the same turn as a bonus action spell.

(Reply to #25)

Winslon

paulstrait wrote:

(Reply to #26)

Winslon

jaelis wrote:

#29

jaelis

Apr 05, 2015 19:35:07

Winslon wrote:

(Reply to #29)

Winslon

jaelis wrote:

#31

jaelis

Apr 05, 2015 20:17:51

Winslon wrote:

#32

paulstrait

Apr 05, 2015 20:40:09

Winslon wrote:

#33

jonathonhawke

Apr 05, 2015 23:33:53

When using a wand, are you using the Cast a Spell action or the Use an Item action?

#34

paulstrait

Apr 06, 2015 0:02:41

jonathonhawke wrote:

(Reply to #33)

Winslon

jonathonhawke wrote:

#36

Hamenopi

Apr 06, 2015 10:56:26

"Can you cast Misty Step and use a Wand of Magic Missiles on the same round?"

"Sure!" - Hamenopi

#37

paulstrait

Apr 06, 2015 12:33:09

Winslon wrote:

#38

Winslon

Apr 06, 2015 12:52:22

thank you for correcting me on Wand of Paralysis over Wand of Paralyzation.

I however find it interesting how freely your willing to change how the Wand of Wonder works to fit within your understanding, while with mine, I don't have to change anything, and all wands work just fine.

#39

paulstrait

Apr 06, 2015 13:25:17

Winslon wrote:

#40

Winslon

Apr 06, 2015 13:29:18

DMG p. 241: Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration.

#41

paulstrait

Apr 06, 2015 13:46:01

Winslon wrote: