Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cymbeline Jul 04, 2014 15:00:18	Looking over the new game, I quite like it.   I kind of understand that starter boxes are the thing to do right now, but it occurs to me that they've gone a little bit too lite.   Having played since 1e (although not 3/3.5e), I think I could probably run an enjoyable game of 5e. It looks fine to me.   But nowhere that I can see does it actually tell a novice how to run a combat. There is no mention of minis or tiles (and presumably they aren't needed hence the return to feet as a unit of measure), but I don't think it's entirely clear to a newbie exactly how this would work out. It's not stated that descriptions or abstract scales should be used either.   There's also no "example of play" for a newbie to relate  to. I think the starter set makes the assumption that the player has already played a p&p RPG of some kind - which I agree will be the case 99% of  the time, but it kind of defeats the object of a starter set.    I can just see a newbie group struggling to get to grips with how a combat is structured in terms of distance, positioning etc, when there is no reference to minis or counters, or any other kind of management of relative distance.   Encounter 1- two goblins rush forward. Two stay back. Newbie fighter rushes forward, all of a sudden it's a maths memory puzzle to work out who is 5' from whom.
#2 SupraHeroSeth Jul 04, 2014 19:23:37	Are you are confusing the Basic Rules PDF with the Starter Set? I'll be a little dissapointed if the new Starter Set doesn't have the same sort of beginner's guide that the old 4th Edition Starter Set had.
#3 HollowMan42 Jul 04, 2014 19:54:55	The team has said they're de-emphasizing the combat grid this time around. This is undoubtedly why in the playtest and the Basic pdf it's listed as a variant, and it's not listed at all in the Starter Set. That's also why those kinds of physical materials mat, minis/counters) aren't in the Starter Set (and undoubtedly to keep the cost under $20).   I do agree that an example of how combat works would've been beneficial, but I also think there's plenty of resources people can turn to these days for assistance (as opposed to back in the 80s when I started playing D&D), so in the grand scheme of things, it shouldn't be that much of a detriment.   -HM
#4 Nicodaudel Jul 04, 2014 21:02:18	Mike Mearls has promised WotC will be rolling out "How to Play" videos in coming weeks - the Starter Set's street date for non-WPN stores is 15 July, ten days from now. While it may let some people down, that approach allows the product to focus on the game itself, with the tutorial videos doing most of the heavy lifting regarding what it means to actually interact with the rules during play - combat, interaction, exploration, etc.
#5 Archon007 Jul 05, 2014 11:42:50	I have the starter set and basic PDF and both have how to make and resolve attacks so not sure what the OP is reading or smoking.
#6 Marandahir Jul 05, 2014 13:01:48	He meant how you do positioning and whatnot, not how to resolve attacks and such.  I assume he's worried about lack of details on how to run it with miniatures and battle grids versus running it with paper and pencil on graphing paper versus running it by theatre of the mind.
#7 Archon007 Jul 05, 2014 14:46:42	Marandahir wrote:
#8 edwin_su Jul 05, 2014 17:23:07	cymbeline wrote:
#9 cymbeline Jul 06, 2014 12:03:27	Guys, I hear what you are saying - but this is in reference only to the starter set and as a comment on one of its aims of being an intro for newbies (although I  appreciate that realistically this will be small fraction of the market).     Reading through the books provided, I just don't see that there is enough "info" on how to practically play the game - and I can see how it becomes very complicated rather than really simple.   It's not that there is no option for minis - there's no guidance at all as to how positioning and movement are managed - especially relative positioning. 5e, like the three versions previous, has a physical basis with measurements etc; and this doesn't lend itself at all to a minds eye theatre type of play (although I'm not saying that's impossible)   As examples - consider that the newbie is playing the starter game - not only are minis and mats/tiles not included - they are not even mentioned. Unless they break out the toy plastic soldiers, and invent a UI on the hoof, some parts of the game are (to me - a 30 year vet of D&D) almost unplayable.   Consider the very first encounter in the Starter Set Module. Two goblins rush forward to engage the party in melee. Let's say the MU character says "I cast Burning Hands". We have gone back to the old school cone/cloud/line type areas of effect. With no minis, how on earth does anyone decide if the goblins are in the AoE, except on a purely arbitrary basis? Worse for lines.   Let's say he doesn't. Let's say the all just duke it out. For my money, the relative positioning is going to be a nightmare. The party do old school marching order on a piece of paper, with a fighter and a cleric in the front rank. The goblins rush forward and engage in melee. How do you judge whether the goblins are both in reach of both characters? Let's say the fighter puts down one of the goblins and runs forward to attack one of the goblin bowmen. Does he attract an Op Attack from the other melee goblin? It's near impossible to say without a big mental maths exercise.   Bottom line, I have no problem with the rules system. It's a good evolution for me, and I think I'll have a lot of fun playing it. My point is that the very first thing brought out - which could be put in the hands on non-D&D players suggests a game that is very hard to implement on the basis of the information provided.   I would suggest that something like an 8 page pamphlet is needed with a lengthy example of play - like a Penny Arcade session or something. Also, with implementation guides - the options for using minis, counters, scraps of paper or whatever. If you don't want to make minis a necessary part of the game - fine, but you do have to tell newbie players how to get on without them.   I completely get that there is a move back to minds eye theatre - but then why are the rules not supporting this? Why are there basically five types of AoE now, which is an idea contrary to the minds eye concept?   All it's going to come down to is DM fiat on absolutely everything. "I rush past the goblin" "He gives you an Op Attack" "But I wasn't engaged" "Yes you were" "I put Burning Hands on all three goblins" "You can't get all of them" "How many can I get?" "I dunno. Two?"   To support this model of play, spells should have been by HD (like Sleep) or number of creatures like (like 4e Invokers), not physical areas.
#10 Nicodaudel Jul 06, 2014 12:02:39	cymbeline wrote:
#11 MrHotter Jul 06, 2014 18:10:13	4E was the first time I played D&D (or any RPG) more like a miniatures combat board game.    For every other RGP I've ever played I just describe the scene and the player asks who he can reach with an attack and we don't have to sit down and count boxes for range. This is how the rules are written for the 5E basic.    They'll have tactical combat rules in another book (was it the DMG?), so those who would rather play that way will have resources before too long. They also have their first miniature line set to have the miniatures needed to play their first two adventure modules. They're also having Gale Force 9 make vinyl game maps for their adventures. We've not seen much on that, so I'm not sure if they are making maps for the Starter Set or just the Tyranny Of Dragons.    Personally, I've started to like using miniatures, so I bought a Chesexx game mat so I could sketch out the combat encounters at my table. When I saw that the maps were not made with the dungeon tiles I decided the game mat would be easier.    I've not gotten my Starter Set box yet, but the Basic rules do have a 'how to play' section that says exaclty how to play without maps and miniatures. The DM describes the environment The players describe what they want to do The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions. They give more details on each point, but it seems like enough for a new DM and players to figure out what to do.
#12 Sling617 Jul 07, 2014 15:51:37	MrHotter wrote: