| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1JohnnyBlaiseSep 25, 2014 7:19:42 | So, with current rules on Surprise thi Alert feat seems game bending to me (like the Time Walk magic card). Other than the amazing bonus to initiative (letting many characters rock a +10 to intiative with advantage thanks to guidance and enhance ability), and the marginally useful negation of advantage, it also has the following language:
"You can’t be surprised while you are conscious."
So let's imagine a simple 3rd level human variant warlock with this feat. He has a familiar who has devil's sight, invisbility, and a very good Stealth bonus. This familiar can stay as much as 120' ahead of the party, exploring whatever needs exploring. Whenever it looks like something dangerous is ahead, the familiar will surprise the enemy (barring the highly unlikely event of a true sight 120' creature or something with a very high passive Perception). If you want to be really saucy, you can even cast enhance ability + guidance on your familiar to really crank that Stealth check.
So the surprise rules say, any creature that is surprised doesnt get to act on the first round of combat. The familiar isnt surprised (he spots the bad guys provoking the combat), and the Warlock isnt suprised because he has Alert (even though he's 120' away). So thats basically a free round every fight.
But wait, your entire party can take the Alert feat. So by having a good scout, we all get a surprise round, every fight. An entire round during which the enemy cannot even react is... pretty damn incredible. Am I wrong? |
| #2SorxoresSep 25, 2014 7:32:30 | except your team is 120 feet away from the scout, so assuming an average speed of 30ft, this mean 2 rounds of dashing in order to reach the fight, because you are not surprise, but the ennemy are surprise, then this mean the ennemy got a 1 round to attack the scout without the team being there to attack, and the team will join the fight 1 round later.
If the invisibile imp wait for the party to get closer, then the ennemy can hear/see the cleric with 8 dex and disavantage on stealth because he got a full plate there fore cancelling the surprise round.
Yes Alert is usefull, but far from game breaking. It's good use is for when the enemy create an ambush and the enemy get a surprise attack on your party, then the player with alert will be able to act as well.
If your team is the one creating the ambush, alert is useless (other then the +5 Initiative), since you would ALREADY act in the surprise round. |
| #3NoctaemSep 25, 2014 8:03:39 | Well your premise is very tunnel vision. Opponents can have any number of ways to detect the scout. You list a few of them but there are more, such as traps for instance. Even if the scout is undetected and gets a surprise round, in your example the party is 120 feet away from the scout. As Sorxores noted it would take around 2 rounds for the party to even move in. Now if we're talking about an open field where ranged attacks with bows or something are a factor well yeah, good job to team PC. If the entire party takes the alert feat then the entire party missed a stat bump to get it. It just means that for this campaign, surprise rounds aren't as effective anymore. Find something else to challenge your party. |
| #4JohnnyBlaiseSep 25, 2014 9:18:48 | Sorry, to be clear, I siad up to 120' away (doesn't have to be that far, totally dependant on what the terrain is, what your party has in terms of ranged attacks, what spells/attacks can be delivered through the scout, how good the party stealth is etc). It's just that is the scouts range of vision. So by staying 120' ahead of us, anything looking down the corridor needs to be able to see 240' to even see the clerics in plate mail etc before the scout sees them. So imagine a typical forest scenario - the scout goes out in front 120', sees a goblin at 240' telepathically conveys that information to the party. The scout is going to use its tail attack when the time comes, so it flies all the way to a square adjacent to goblin. The party non chalantly walks up to the goblin. As soon as the goblin has line of sight, we check for surprise. The only creature that could cause a surprise is the scout, so we check the goblins passive perception vs. scouts hide check. Yup, its surprised. But alert pcs are immune to the normal effect of surprise. Now we all roll intitiative. We all go, the goblin doesnt.
I don't think I've seen any traps that trigger when a tiny invisible creature flies over them. Maybe people will start writing those in. |
| #5TimboramaSep 25, 2014 10:42:13 | How to fix above scenario: That would be a shame if that goblin was somewhere behind a door...
(also, as others said, you sacrifice a lot to get +1 turn 50% of the time. Seems fair. Plenty of opportunities to use those feats, but plenty of ways to either negate or lessen its effect) |
| #6JohnnyBlaiseSep 25, 2014 10:59:25 | First, +1 turn is AMAZING. Thats why time stop is a level 9 spell. To give you an idea of scale, there are feats that give you a first level spell 1X per day. Haste, a third level spell, gives you one extra attack, not an entire extra turn, but its comparable since Haste is multiround. So just someting that gives you one extra turn per day would be the equivalent of 3rd level spell once per day. And this is every encounter, not every day. And it also gives you the biggest flat modifier to anything in the game (tied with paladin aura). So yeah, amazing feat, why would you not take this over say a +2 to dex?
Second, again, if this is the "door" kind of situation you are describing, great, we all get near the door. The invisible familiar opens the door quietly. This suprises the goblin, cause a goblin still cant beat the hide check of the familiar. That means we have a suprise round. Its a goofy consequence of individual surprise. So long as one member of party can surprise an enemy, we all get to act.
Yes traps on doors etc. are a problem, but no more of a problem than they would be without this tactic.
|
| (Reply to #6)FrogReaver |
|
| (Reply to #6)Timborama |
|
| #9abs1nthSep 25, 2014 12:09:44 | Am I missing something? Just because you can't be surprised doesn't mean you always surprise the enemy. The familiar might get a surprise attack but why does the warlock necessarily get one? How would alert affect any of that? |
| #10JohnnyBlaiseSep 25, 2014 13:01:10 | Yeah I think you guys are missing something about how surprise works in this addition. All those guys in plate armor huddled behind the door? They dont matter. The only way they dont get to act on the surprise is if they themselves are surprised, which can't happen because of Alert. So they all get to act on any surprise round. And there will always be one, because the familair will always (almost - see above re: true seeing) surprise an enemy.
The condition "surprised" means you dont get to act on the first round. No PC will ever be surprised. Every NPC will be suprised by the familiar. |
| #11NoctaemSep 25, 2014 13:38:06 | I think there's something flawed in your logic here. The surprise round is for those who initiate combat for example, if you aren't part of that initiation you don't get to act in the surprise round. Surprise doesn't even factor into it. You just aren't part of the surprise round because you're not doing anything to surprise other creatures. For example if a group of bandits jumps out of the bushes at the party and the party didn't notice them, they gain surprise. I think we can all agree on that. However if the bandits don't do anything and the PC's just walk up to them and find the bandits looking at them, neither side is surprised. The bandits did nothing to initiate a surprise round and the party found them.
So in your example above with the scout, the scout gets the surprise round because it initiates combat. The rest of the party outside the room or up to 120 feet don't because they are not part of the surprise round. They aren't surprised, that doesn't matter. They simply aren't part of the triggering action which starts the surprise round. On the other hand if the party sent the scout in and then they initiated the surprise round say by shooting arrows at the opponents for example, if the scout wasn't part of those attacks, it does not get to participate in the surprise round. If you look at Chapter 9 under surprise it states that a member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't. Same deal. You have to participate in order to get the bonus of a surprise round.
Just because a member of your party 120 feet away initiates combat with some bad guys, doesn't mean you get to take part in the surprise round. Alert does not give you that ability. It just means that you can't be surprised anymore. |
| #12TimboramaSep 25, 2014 14:22:23 |
|
| (Reply to #11)Overpromises |
|
| #14Danny_MontannySep 25, 2014 15:12:39 | You initiate combat if there will be combat. If there's no combat, then you're just exploring.
There's way too many details in your example that would need to be fleshed out before you can adjucate. Did the Warlock relay the information of the Goblin before the Imp attacked? If not, then you have a surprised, but not really surprised, party. No one but the Warlock knows what's going on.
So it would go: 1. Goblin is surprised. 2. Where is everyone positioned? 3. Roll initiative. 4. Everyone acts in order, but no one but the Warlock has any knowledge on what to base their actions on, so they do nothing.
Knowledge is power. You can not act without it. "Ok, Jimmy, you're first. You have no idea that anything is going on, so you continue doing what you were doing." |
| #15NoctaemSep 25, 2014 16:35:36 |
|
| #162ChlorobutanalSep 25, 2014 18:33:32 | Yeah, this basically boils down as Noctaem said:
If the whole party wants to act in the combat, they are possibly able to be detected by enemies and spoil the "surprise." If the rest of the party wants to wait out of "encounter range" so an Imp can surprise an enemy, they aren't in the encounter yet.
You are not surprised if you don't notice any given enemy, you are surprised if you fail to notice at least one enemy.
Alert is primarily a defensive feat, preventing the feat-holder from potentially losing their first turn in a given encounter. It doesn't, however, help the party to remove the first turn of enemies. Stealth (or Deception)-based feats and abilities would be necessary for that. |
| #17lawrencehoySep 25, 2014 21:28:17 |
|
| #182ChlorobutanalSep 26, 2014 0:03:49 | Yeah, it is confusing. I was trying to convey the same point, though - the only time a character is surprised is if every enemy snuck up on them (and the character is not "Alert" per the feat). |
| #19lawrencehoySep 26, 2014 0:14:27 |
|
| #20FrogReaverSep 26, 2014 0:48:59 | So basically the thread starter read the rules: any creature or monster that doesn't notice a threat is suprised at the start of the encounter.... he read that as if there is a single threat an enemy doesn't notice it is suprised even if it notices 20 others. Instead the better reading is that if it doesn't notice any threat then it is suprised.
Pretty sure that negates ops whole premise and makes sense both mechanically and thematically. |
| #21JohnnyBlaiseSep 26, 2014 9:40:03 | "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." PG 189. The word used is "a" not "any".
"the DM compares the Dexterity(Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature" Pg 189. Each hiding creature vs. each perceiving creature.
"A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t."
Surprise in this edition is INDIVIDUAL not group.
Imagine three of us are hiding. One paladin, one cleric and one rogue. The cleric and paladin have a Stealth check of 2 (rolling with disadvantage because of plate armor, dex of 8, crap rolls) and the rogue has a stealth of 20 (rogue), we look at each person individually. Assume the monster has a passive perception of 15. The monster spots the cleric and the paladin, but not the rogue. The rogue has "suprised" the enemy. So the enemy is subject to the surprised condition and doesn't get to act on the first round, and the rogue's Assassin features kick in.
|
| (Reply to #21)nightwalker450 |
|
| #23JohnnyBlaiseSep 26, 2014 10:26:04 | The rogue "surprises" the monster - the monster wasn't expecting him (the monster was ready to fight two people, not three). It is a "surprise" when he puts a shank in the monster's back. It says "A" not "ANY" its a big difference.
If you read the hide/find rules, the support this. You need to be searching for a specific thing to get an "active" search check, otherwise its a "passive" search check. So you are looking around on a table for a signet ring that is hidden amongst some papers. Your roll an investigate to find that ring. Your roll is a 30. Ah great theres the ring. Too bad you werent searching the ceiling, cause thats where the roper is, with his hide of 20. He surprises you.
Similarly, imagine the typical ambush scenario. Ahead of you is a wounded person in the road. You are going to go investigate. That person in the road is not hiding, he cant surprise you. But his friends waiting to cut your throught as soon as move in and try to help that person, they can surprise you just fine. |
| #24nightwalker450Sep 26, 2014 10:31:53 |
|
| (Reply to #24)JohnnyBlaise |
|
| #26JohnnyBlaiseSep 26, 2014 11:02:10 |
|
| #27YunruSep 26, 2014 11:07:49 | You can only be surprised if your not expecting combat. Doesn't matter who with, your expecting combat. That's why you only have to spot one hostile creature to avoid being surprised as per the rules. |
| (Reply to #21)FrogReaver |
|
| (Reply to #27)JohnnyBlaise |
|
| #30JohnnyBlaiseSep 26, 2014 12:56:00 |
|
| (Reply to #29)Yunru |
|
| (Reply to #31)FrogReaver |
|
| (Reply to #23)Overpromises |
|
| #34UthracSep 26, 2014 14:52:34 | ... which is why playing an assassin can be very difficult. Many DMs (in this thread) will make it impossible to attack with surprise. |
| (Reply to #34)FrogReaver |
|
| (Reply to #34)Overpromises |
|
| #37FrogReaverSep 26, 2014 15:42:15 | I do find it interesting that some think an invisible rogue thats sneaking can give the whole party an extra turn just by virtue of being hidden when the encounter starts. Are they really thinking about what they are saying? |
| #38JohnnyBlaiseSep 26, 2014 21:09:01 | Look, obviously, what I think "should" happen is that any creature that is not detected should get to go during a surprise round, then everyobe else should go into normal round. So, an invisible imp, hiding rogue etc. could surprise, and then the rest of party would go with the monsters. Unfortunately the rule is written such that there is no "surprise round". There is just people who get to go on the first round and people that don't. If you are subjected to the " suprised" condition (by anything) you lose your round. That is the rule as written. |
| (Reply to #31)JohnnyBlaise |
|
| #40FluffyBunbunKittensSep 27, 2014 2:28:39 | Once again, the stealth/surprise rules are failing to provide, and we'll have to make up our own.
PCs surprising monsters: group Stealth check against the general passive Perception of monsters, success means the whole monster party is surprised.
Monsters sneaking up on PCs: PCs roll Perception vs the general monster Stealth value, those who fail are surprised on an individual level.
Something like that? |
| #41JohnnyBlaiseSep 27, 2014 3:58:27 | I think the whole problem with the posts above is that people on both sides are arguing for an "entire side of combat" rule. If all the heroes surprise the enemies that's way too powerful. If all the enemies surprise the party, also way to powerful. 1 or 2 of either side getting to act first, totally fine. So if you are house ruling, that's what I'd allow. But as it stands I think there is a disagreement about how RAW even works, but that either interpretation has an extreme result. |
| #42YunruSep 27, 2014 4:05:42 | It's simple and clearly defined: If a creature notices a threat that creature is not surprised. There is no ambiguity about this. Thus a creature has to fail to notice every threat to be surprised. |
| #43FluffyBunbunKittensSep 27, 2014 5:13:46 |
|
| #44FrogReaverSep 27, 2014 13:52:43 | Most of us here beleive that in the rules "a threat" is not equivalent to "a hostile ccreature". If they intended "a threat" to mean "a hostile creature" they would have used the more explicit wording of "a hostile creature" |
| #45YunruSep 27, 2014 14:02:11 | Of course not, "a threat" is a more catch-all phrase. It covers hostile creatures, giant boulders coming at you, etc. |
| (Reply to #45)FrogReaver |
|
| #47YunruSep 28, 2014 2:08:44 | Well yeah, a threat has to actually be threatening. So no pebble in a field. That spike pit trap in front of you however... Regardless, my point was that just because "a threat" isn't limited to a group of creatures, doesn't mean it excludes a group of creatures. |
| (Reply to #47)FrogReaver |
|
| #492ChlorobutanalSep 28, 2014 19:40:37 | About arguing for a "free round" for an assassin (or other sneaky character) when he or she is the only "unnoticed" character in an otherwise standard (non-ambush) combat, this is why it should not occur:
The simple fact that the third dwarf is hiding from the orcs does not make him faster than his fellows. They all act according to their initiative. The orcs are preparing to fight the two visible dwarves, so they are not "surprised." The dwarves, likewise, are ready to fight the orcs. Nobody is unsuspecting, so nobody loses an action. However, the third dwarf can potentially attack from hiding and gain advantage (and Sneak Attack damage) because, while the orcs are generally prepared to fight, they are not aware of the hidden dwarf.
The counter-example for surprise would be:
|
| #50JohnnyBlaiseSep 29, 2014 11:16:00 |
|
| #51WibbleNZSep 29, 2014 13:15:09 |
|
| (Reply to #50)FrogReaver |
|
| #53JohnnyBlaiseSep 30, 2014 8:47:51 |
|
| (Reply to #53)FrogReaver |
|
| #55lawrencehoyOct 01, 2014 1:16:41 |
|
| #56lawrencehoyOct 01, 2014 1:27:53 |
|
| #57JohnnyBlaiseOct 01, 2014 8:45:54 |
|
| (Reply to #57)FrogReaver |
|
| #59JohnnyBlaiseOct 02, 2014 9:48:45 | PHB page 189. "The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative."
I am saying there are two possible interpretations of "a threat." How you interpret that word is irrelevant for whether EVERYONE rolls initiatitve. The rules say everyone. Its clear and uncontroverted.
The objective validity of one definition of "a threat" or the other has to be based on what makes the most sense in light of the other rules. I am not in any way convinced that it makes sense to deny a scouting unseen rogue the chance to make a suprise attack because orcs heard footsteps coming from some nebulous and unseen location. |
| (Reply to #59)FrogReaver |
|
| (Reply to #59)FrogReaver |
|
| #62jonathonhawkeOct 01, 2014 11:37:49 | If half the party intends to sit out the battle (outside combat range) then they don't need to roll initiative.
If they intend to join the battle, they roll initiative, so that each can act as they enter combat range. |
| (Reply to #62)FrogReaver |
|
| #642ChlorobutanalOct 01, 2014 17:27:37 | There's a sidebar in the exploration/adventuring chapter, I believe, about splitting the party for this very purpose.
If characters are rolling initiative, they can be spotted for the purposes of surprise. If characters are staying out of "encounter range," they neither roll initiative nor compare stealth/perception for the purposes of surprise. |
| #65jonathonhawkeOct 01, 2014 23:14:36 |
|
| (Reply to #65)Overpromises |
|
| (Reply to #64)FrogReaver |
|
| #68JohnnyBlaiseOct 02, 2014 9:53:40 |
|
| #69YunruOct 02, 2014 10:14:42 |
|
| (Reply to #69)JohnnyBlaise |
|
| (Reply to #70)FrogReaver |
|
| #72FrogReaverOct 02, 2014 14:30:59 | By the way since when does combat start at hearing distance? |
| #73FrogReaverOct 02, 2014 14:37:50 | By the way since when does combat start at hearing distance?
And where does suprise get determined base on line of sight?
just imagine telling your party they are all suprised because they done see the all the guards in the castle.... Players won't think that's too fun |
| #74WibbleNZOct 02, 2014 15:04:05 |
|
| (Reply to #74)FrogReaver |
|
| #76WibbleNZOct 02, 2014 16:25:54 |
|
| #77Danny_MontannyOct 02, 2014 17:05:10 | A hidden Assassin is going to fire a crossbow at you. You have the Alertness feat. You are not surprised. Roll initiative.
Scenario 1: Assassin wins initiative. The Assassin rolls an attack roll (without advantage) and rolls damage if the attack hits. The Assassin finishes it's turn. Your take your turn. End round #1.
Scenario 2: You win initiative. You are unaware of the impending attack, so what do you do? How do you take an action when there's nothing to base the action on? So you go on doing whatever you were doing. You can now take a reaction, however. Your turn ends. The Assassin now resolves it's attack and finishes it's turn. End round #1.
Alertnes is not a get out of jail free card. It does not give you any special treatment if you have no idea something is about to happen. It allows you to react to that something. At most in the above scenario I would let the player roll an additional Perception check as their action, but only if they stated they were actively looking for threats. |
| #78lawrencehoyOct 06, 2014 4:00:11 |
|
| #79lawrencehoyOct 05, 2014 20:43:00 |
|
| (Reply to #79)Danny_Montanny |
|
| #81lawrencehoyOct 07, 2014 1:45:15 |
|
| (Reply to #79)1eejit |
|
| (Reply to #82)Danny_Montanny |
|
| #84danycOct 07, 2014 10:36:21 | These threads always go the same way.
1. Someone finds some hinky way to read a rule element that will suggest a broken outcome, and come to the forum 'asking' if it really works that way (OP: 'Am I wrong?')
2. OP is told they are in fact wrong, given clear and logical, least-convoluted reading to explain why.
3. OP who was 'asking' really wasn't asking, but was instead trying to brag about the broken thing they think they've discovered and really want to munchkin with / be hailed as an awesome optimizer for discovering.
4. Said OP then argues tooth and nail for the most backward reading of things possible.
5. Bonus points for complaining that the game is broken at the same time as they do it, while blatantly ignoring the path of least resistance and less brokeness that everyone points out (not sure that happened here, but it often does)
I wish every thread like this would go away forever. |
| #85JohnnyBlaiseOct 07, 2014 16:15:45 | Funny, i have a similar complaint. I post here looking for RAW (not RAI) confirmation of combinations that seem crazy so I can use them in organized play with a firm footing. At home, RAW means nothing. If a group of players is abusing this combo to make the game unfun, Ill just give all my monsters ways around it. These things only work in a store or at a convention (or in optimization forums).
So I get really annoyed at all the "it is up to your DM" answers. Of course questionable things are up to the DM. There are three potential outcomes of a question like mine. 1) The rules are unambiguous for, 2) the rules are unambiguous against, or 3) the rules are not helpful.
This particular conversation has convinced me that this is a scenario 3 not a scenario 1, because
version A Is the fighter in plate "a threat"? Yes. Did you notice him? Yes. So you noticed a threat so you are not surprised.
Version B Is the hidden rogue a threat? Yes Did you notice him? No. So you didnt notice a threat so you are surpised.
Both of these are correct by RAW. You need to go to RAI to choose betwen A and B. Which argument I feel is stronger is not material at that point, but other people have helped me see the limits of each side of that argument, which I find very helpful. Sorry if you dont appreciate that.
|
| #86JohnnyBlaiseOct 07, 2014 16:23:10 |
|
| #87JohnnyBlaiseOct 07, 2014 16:41:11 |
|
| (Reply to #87)2Chlorobutanal |
|
| #89jonathonhawkeOct 07, 2014 17:03:51 |
|
| #90JohnnyBlaiseOct 08, 2014 11:25:04 |
|
| (Reply to #90)FrogReaver |
|
| #92JohnnyBlaiseOct 08, 2014 12:29:49 |
|
| #93jonathonhawkeOct 08, 2014 14:01:57 |
|
| (Reply to #92)FrogReaver |
|
| #95lawrencehoyOct 09, 2014 1:52:48 |
|
| #96JohnnyBlaiseOct 11, 2014 11:22:37 |
|
| #97FrogReaverOct 11, 2014 16:00:54 | Can't the same be said about your reading... That if they intended it your way they would have said against the highest stealth check? |
| #98paulstraitOct 11, 2014 16:12:39 |
|
| #99paulstraitOct 11, 2014 16:20:59 |
|
| #100FrogReaverOct 11, 2014 17:11:14 | Yep, the rule is a bit ambiguous. It can be taken either way but it makes the most sense to rule it as pretty much everyone but the OP would rule it. |
| (Reply to #23)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #99)Bloodscythe |
|
| #103Sutekh1Oct 13, 2014 19:11:23 | In the example of a group hiding behind a door and 'stealthily' opening it (lets for the sake of argument say the door was utterly silent) with a goblin behind it |