The way the surprise mechanic works seems very odd to me.
An example using a rogue with assassinate "any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit."
A rogue sneaks into a room and spots a goblin standing with his back towards the rogue, the rogue passes his stealth check.
The rogue decides to shoot an arrow.
As soon as he fires his arrow, combat is initiated and a surprise round starts.
Both the rogue and the goblin roll for initiative, 15 for the rogue, 16 for the goblin.
The goblin goes first but cant act since its a surprise round, then the rogue hits him in the back of the head with the arrow, but he doesnt get a surprise attack since the goblin already finished his first turn.
How does it make sense that a creature completly unaware of the attacker or the attack can already make a turn and go through its surprise stage without even being hit by the attack that would iniate combat and alert it to the fact that it's under attack? Unless whomever is under attack has the ability to look into the future I dont see how initiative rolls for surprise rounds make sense.
Assuming you're playing 5th edition.
There is no "surprise round." There's round 1. There's a "surprised" condition, which means a creature is too slow to act.
The initiative roll places them in turn order. So if your baddie has a high initiative, but is surprised, he can't act in round one. Maybe he sees what's coming but just too late to do anything about it.
I'd say for purposes of assassinate the goblin didn't have a turn, since in game terms during the surprise round he can take no actions and reactions, thus being on the initiative order as decoration until the no-longer-surprised rounds start. What you mentioned would only work if the target is not surprised and thus saw the assassine come.
Atrophus wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Zifnub wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Zifnub wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Zifnub wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
shivafang wrote:
If you are the DM and the "logic" of it fails you, rule it in whatever way seems best to you.
Personally, I rule that creatures who are totally unaware of your attack are instantly killed, barring some exceptions. If you don't want to be that deadly, call it a Crit with 2 failed death saves. If you don't want to be THAT deadly, call it a Crit. If you don't...
shivafang wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
bawylie wrote:
You are right, it is a bit...'odd'... but most solutions can also lead to an odd result.
I used to do as Noctaem suggests, which is let the 'trigger' attack occur, and then roll for init. But.... that potentially leads to a lot more 'free' attacks, and it completely negates the target the ability to 'notice something at the last minute' which is so common in storytelling.
What I have been doing now, is giving the 'sniper' guy advantage on the Init roll. It gives them a big advantage, yet still gives the target a chance. (In a really bad situation, I may also give the target disadvantage...)
There are times when a bad initiative roll could mess up an assassination attempt, so anyone picking the assassin archetype should be sure to have a high initiative modifier.
If a monk is standing guard on a camp and an assassin sneaks up on him then he could be suprised (stealth vs. his passive perception) and then win initiative and be able to use his reaction to catch the arrow out of the air and throw it back at the assassin. That sounds like an awesome moment at the table.
Coredump00 wrote:
Zifnub wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Zifnub wrote:
shivafang wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
bawylie wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Of course, initiative only resolves who acts faster than whom when it's uncertain. If no one was going to act if the assassin hadn't attacked, and are only acting in response to the assassin, and the assassin gave no signal for the victim to notice and react to, you're justified in ruling that there is no uncertainty the assassin will go first. So have everyone else roll initiative, then just stick the assassin's turn at the top.
I was in a situation once where the PCs were in handcuffs and taken to a goblin boss. Some of the PCs picked the cuffs before meeting the boss. They worked out some signal to all act at once. Signal sent, initiative rolled, boss won. DM said that made no sense and ignored his turn.
EDIT: double post! Yes, yes, I know. Encore, encore. Just post it once, Jeeves.
OoftaMeg wrote:
To me the problem people have with surprise not from surprise itself but from how it and the rogues assinate feature works.
The BBEG is surprised and and rolls higher initiative. He sits there and takes his punishment like a man and can't attack back that round.
The only person whose abillities are problematic with him rolling initiaitve first are the assassin rogues. Then again the assassain rogue doesn't get advantage against a surprised enemy that rolls higher initiative than him either... so it seems all of his assassain abilities are meant to trigger of him beating the initiative of his opponents. That seems like a fair enough assumption.
Once that is reaized i fail to see why out of combat attacks help resolve situations where the rogue surprises an enemy.
In the other example where the paladin initiates combat. Surprise and ready actions resolve that situation appropriately. If another PC is waiting on the paladin to attack then if combat starts he does that by readying an action. Simple enough.
You're only supposed to roll if the outcome is in question.
If the rogue is hidden, then there's no way for the goblin to react to him. The outcome of who can react first is not in question, so don't roll initiative.
Monk wants to walk up and pretend to be friendly then sucker punch a bandit? Give him a bluff check and if he wins, he automatically gets highest initiative.
Ranger knows what the monk is doing and wants to shoot an arrow at the same time? Fine, he's already presumably succeeded on his stealth check. They can either pick who goes first or roll for it. Turn order between PCs tends to matter little.
SilentSin wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
If PC, M1 and M2 are in battle. M1 and M2 are surprised by PC and initiative order is M1, PC, M2, then it goes:
Round 1 Turn 1 (M1)
M1 notices PC, it is no longer surprised.
Round 1 Turn 2 (PC)
PC uses possible movement, an action and a possible bonus action.
Round 1 Turn 3 (M2)
M2 notices PC, it is no longer surprised.
Rya.Reisender wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Zifnub wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Yes, the end of your turn ends your surprise condition.
I'm not opposed to a ruling that makes "surprise" last longer, because otherwise attacking a surprised target will be super rare, but according to RAW, you only gain these benefits if you win the stealth roll AND roll higher initiative.
FrogReaver wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
The thing about surprise is that it is not a condition, and it doesn't have "effects" in the same sense a condition would.
Surprise is a determination that denies you your first turn in combat. It occurs to me that you become aware of the other side on your turn, and then you're able to react.
It seems intended that surprise "ends" after your first turn, but language elsewhere challenges that. For example, the rogue's Thief's Reflexes feature says, "You can take two turns during the first round of any combat. ... You can't use this feature when you are surprised." — But aren't you not surprised after your first turn?
I rule that surprise "ends" when everyone involved in the combat has had a turn. It makes the most sense to me that way.
SilentSin wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Although I too would agree that the end of surprise ends after the PCs / creature's first turn as it is written, Aaron's logic on the use of assassinate is very interesting and insightful. Might house rule that into my game.
Noctaem wrote:
Right, so you're unhappy that the archtype feature for assassin rogues revolves around a dice roll, IE random results, amongst other things outside of player control and you've houseruled that surprise lasts beyond what the rules say in order to fix that in your game. Ok then, whatever is more fun for you and your group. Do you apply the same benefits to the opponents as well or do you not use monsters that gain benefits from surprise as a result?
And for the record, I don't believe your % claims are factual. You're also making several claims like there's only 2 people in the initiative order for example. But the very nature of your claim would indeed make it more likely to see benefits from the feature since you're allowing for an entire round worth of surprise while I do not, again as per the rules.
And to answer your question, fluff text isn't rules text. And by your claim, am I to understand then that I should houserule the game based on fluff text to then make an ability that says "You poison your opponent with your blade" to mean that said poison is applied without the need of an attack roll? That it's applied regardless of a hit or miss? That's basically what you're arguing here, that even though there's multiple factors that can hinder a feature or ability, that because the "cool" fluff text says something, it should circumvent the random outcome portion of the game.
TL:DR if you don't like your odds to apply a feature that has multiple moving parts with forced random results as an outcome due to the nature of the game we're playing (random results more and more skewered in your favor by the number of opponents in the encounter btw), then all I can say is stop whining and play something else. lol. I'm not going to change the entire game system because you don't like the fact that you have a random chance % of not being able to apply your archtype feature!
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
shivafang wrote:
@Noctaem
I think the issue isn't about how powerful or how lackluster the surprise mechanic is in comabination with the rogue feature, but rather that the initiative roll adds an arbitrary (and in some scenario's nonsensical) hurdle to jump in making the feature work, I agree with Aaron when he said this would make a player feel tricked. I mean why wouldn't he be, he did everything right in a perfect chain of events, yet doesn't collect his prize, it's like adding schrödinger's cat to a chess game.
Noctaem wrote:
So, let's say that Neil and Bob are hidden, and Jack is surprised. Roll initiative, Jack goes before Neil and Bob, but Jack can't act. By RAW, surprise ands after his turn, so he is no longer surprised. Now, on Neil's turn rather than attack, he does nothing that would break stealth, I don't know...say drinking a potion. Now it's Bob's turn, but...surprise is over? WHAT exactly broke it? He was hidden and nothing happened to change that.
I guess my questions are, am I interpreting RAW correctly, and does this make any sense per RAI?
Zifnub wrote:
Glimjack wrote:
Having spent more time nosing around these forums than I usually do these past couple of days, it's become increasingly more obvious that some of the loudest voices here can be attributed to people who do not spend much time actually playing the game.
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Malzerious wrote:
The method that works best for me is that
1. Someone declares they'll do something surprising
2. Initiative is rolled
3. People who are surprised are surprised for the entire round, but may take reactions. I'd probably rule out bonus actions and non-actions too.
4. Unless you gave some sign, your own party are likely to be surprised too.
The upshot of this is that
1) I don't need to wierd up initiative rules to account for the guy that attacks first. He'll get his go at the appropriate point in initiative. All that getting a low initiative changes is that he might trigger reactions from people.
2) I don't have problems with assassins not getting their special abilities (or any other 'triggers on surprise' thing). Sure the guy saw them coming and started to react, but it was all for naught - he still gets critted.
3) I don't have problems with someone trying to attack people during negotiations and his own party members rolling good initiative and going first. If they weren't looking for it, they were surprised, and at best might be able to react.
4) I DO get interesting things like the monk snatching an arrow from the air, or the abjurer blocking part of a shot.
Macv12 wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
I believe that each participant in combat has a six second turn, each of these six second turns occur simultaneously (during the six second round), and that initiative order is a game mechanic that allows each participant to have varying degrees of reflexes; while each turn is resolved in initiative order, they start and end at the same time.
EDIT: In reference to this discussion, I see surprise as follows: Until after your turn, you are completely surprised and can't act at all; after your turn (during the first round), you are recovering from surprise and can only take reactions.
@lawrencehoy
But the question was more like if you would let the Assassin still benefit from its assassinate ability when someone is "recovering from surprise" as you put it.
shivafang wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
MrHotter wrote:
MrHotter wrote:
@Noctaem: you frequently exhort us to 'Just read the PHB!!!'
This is inconsistent with your idea that you have someone take a combat action outside combat and before surprise is determined (utterly preventing the assassin's auto-crit at the point where it should be perfect), then roll initiative/determine who is surprised, then have the assassin attack again and this second attack could be the auto-crit.
The rules want us to determine surprise first, determine initiative order second, attack third.
If we interpret surprise as ending after a creature's turn, then the assassin can choose not to attack and not to reveal his presence. What is the (no longer surprised) enemy reacting to, given that we know he failed to notice the assassin?
When you are surprised, rules apply. One of those rules is that you cannot take Reactions until after your first turn. Another of those rules is that you cannot move or act on your first turn.
But there is no rule that says after your first turn, you automatically notice the enemies that are still hidden! Nor is there a rule saying that you are immune to being assassinated (from the assassin's auto-crit feature) just because you have a better initiative. The assassin is still hidden, therefore nothing has happened to 'un-surprise' you.
The only non-absurd way to understand it is that being surprised is something that applies to the entire first round of combat. If you are surprised, you remain surprised until the end of round one, cannot use a reaction before your first turn, cannot move or act during your first turn, can use a reaction to respond to anything you have noticed (assuming you have a useful reaction) after your first turn.
This means that the 'cannot act/react' thing is only part of the surprise rule, but since very few other abilities mention 'surprise' then they very rarely come into play. But when they do come into play, like with Assassinate, then 'being surprised' includes 'suffering auto-crits while surprised' by assassins.
Macv12 wrote:
I'm guessing you're talking about a hidden assassin? You fail to notice that after resolving the attack that triggers combat, the assassin is no longer hidden. Hidden is lost if you attack on a hit or miss as per the rules. Nice try though. If the Assassin is not using hiding as a means to generate surprise, everyone involved in the encounter notices everyone else as per the rules again. There's no issue at all.
I can't help but notice that the scenario you originally suggested was 1 or 2 small sentences long while it is now multiple paragraphs. Might suggest you didn't explain the scenario properly the first time around :p Thanks for explaining it in detail this time. There's some things missing or problems with the scenario though.
1. What is the assassin using to hide? He needs either total cover, invisibility, complete darkness or something else that prevents the person walking in the room from not automatically seeing him. And if he can attack the target from where he is, it can't be total cover
2. Say the assassin does have one of the above which doesn't cause the person walking in the room from simply seeing the assassin when he walks in, passive perception is compared to the stealth roll the moment that the person walks in the room. Not after he walks in, closes the door, moves to the other side, looks out the window, etc.. Just to be clear.
3. You say it's my interpretation, which is actually just my ruling to resolve events that trigger surprise as a DM to be clear, that you're using but you don't actually follow it. So I'm confused?
4. By following my ruling, you avoid exactly the kind of problem you just suggested. Again I don't understand why you would say you're using my ruling in an example and then basically completely fail to use it....
5. I can say however that the target is no longer surprised because surprise only has an effect before and during a character's/monster's first turn. Once the first turn is over, it no longer has any effect, so you're no longer surprised. Are you still prone for the rest of the round after you stand up? Or after you make a saving throw against an effect are you still considered affected by it for the rest of the round? The answer to both of those is no, you're not.
guachi wrote:
I think if I had an assassin at my table he'd be very disappointed when I told him he didn't get an auto critical becuase he lost initiative and the target was no longer surprised.
I agree with you that it is just better to give the Assassin an auto critical on his sneak attack (I think that's the houserule you are going for).
I did some math. Given the following difference between the Assassin's initiative modifer and the target's, here are the chances the Assassin will go before his target (ties going to the assassin)
0 52.50%
1 57.25%
2 61.75%
3 66.00%
4 70.00%
5 73.75%
6 77.25%
7 80.50%
8 83.50%
9 86.25%
10 88.75%
11 91.00%
12 93.00%
13 94.75%
I think a +13 is achievable with 20 Dexterity, Alert feat, and 2 levels of Bard for Jack of All Trades or 7 levels of Champion for Remarkable Athlete for 1/2 proficiency bonus in Initiative (and a high enough level for a +3 modifier)
guachi wrote:
Further thinking about the issue, what is the community's opinion on the following?
Artemis the Assassin is trying to assassinate Brognar.
Artemis is hiding (his sneak roll beats Brognar's perception roll).
Brognar rolls better initiative than Artemis.
Round 1.
On Brognar's turn, he does nothing, because he is surprised (he hasn't noticed a threat).
On Atemis' turn, he moves away, still in hiding, and stays away until combat is over.
Combat Ends.
Artemis then sneaks back into striking range of Brognar and tries again.
And again.
And again, untill Artemis' player rolls better initiative than Brognar's player, at which point Artemis assassinates Brognar for 20d6 damage, possibly doubled.
mrpopstar wrote:
Hugin wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
I originally thought surprise should last the whole first round too. But after the official clarification that you can take reactions after your turn, I reconsidered. Now I think the official intend of the rules is that surprise always ends at the end of your turn.
In the realistical approach it really doesn't make sense in some situations... like the Assassin opting to stay hidden and not attack, so there is in fact no actual combat after initiative was rolled. The Assassin could just end combat and reinitialize it until he gets higher initiative... but that would be weird...
I'd probably rule that the one who initialized combat by saying "I want to attack" also has to attack on his turn and can't opt to do nothing and end combat again, unspotted.
Noctaem wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Hugin wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Zifnub wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Zifnub wrote:
[quote="Noctaem"]I might seem grumpy but that's only because it gets surprisingly tiresome to explain the same things, to the same people, in different threads over and over. This isn't the first thread about this subject. It's like everytime this discussion pops up, the same people more or less make the same claims which then have to be disproved again with the same rules. Nothing moves forward.[/quote]
Heh. Like it or not, you are one of these people. We all are, objectively. From a subjective viewpoint though, it's everyone else (who doesn't agree with the obvoius truth that I see) who make stupid claims and are frustrating to talk to and persist in being wrong. But we are not like that! We are completely correct and reasonable.
I'm aware enough to see it objectively, but that in no way makes me immune to feeling it subjectively. I find you in particular to be frustrating and frequently wrong, but I imagine that you feel the same about me.
The best we can do is to put our case as cogently as we can, and even if we don't expect to convert our opponent in the debate, we can hope that a neutral third party reading the thread looks at all the arguments and finds ours has the most merit.
mrpopstar wrote:
SadisticLeprechaun wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Zifnub wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Resolving the triggering event, regardless of if that's a trap going off or an attack or whatever, first is a ruling I make at my table. I've never claimed otherwise. I do this because then combat, which imo is described as being a result of that triggering event can flow from that point. You don't end up with the hidden attacker who said he wanted to attack but ended up last in the initiative which effectively wastes the first round. You don't end up with weird situations where the party rolls initiative and no one knows why... there's just quite a few situations, that I've had to deal with at my table while DM'ing that I simply find are completely resolved by doing it this way. Feel free to disagree if you want.
And the rules don't actually state that this ruling is or isn't legal. Actions can be taken outside combat, that's a fact. I believe this falls within the ambiguous section of the rules for when combat starts, how actions can be used outside of combat, surprise, etc..
lawrencehoy wrote:
p3ck wrote:
So I guess the crux of the issue is "how long does 'surprise' last for; the end of an individual's first turn, the end of the first round collectively, or the beginning of an individual's second turn?" It doesn't seem to specify which is the case.
Is that the issue? Or are there others?
(Just trying to refocus on the problem.)
Hugin wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Hugin wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Hugin wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
consider these examples illustrations:
The rogue sneaks up behind the guard. This suprises the guard both mechanically and narratively. Narratively the rogue gets his attack off first. Mechanically the guard is surprised and cannot take any actions. The rogue attacks and if he hits the attack is always 100% of the time a critical hit. Narratively a miss can be described as the guard reacting just in time to move out of the way.
The rogue sneaks up behind the guard. This suprises the guard both mechanically and narratively. Initiative is rolled and the guard goes first. This indicates he is actually a little "faster" than the rogue in this particular instance. The guard still does nothing because he is mechanically suprised. The rogue attacks and hits but because the guard was just fast enough he causes the rogue to not hit the vital organs he was aiming for.
Any problems with either illustration?
FrogReaver wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
you want it put simple?
Here how I run surprise round at my table, it work great, do not allowed any loopholes (at least no player found one yet) and allow the assassin to have his surprise round.
the adventurer team compose of 1 rogue, 1 monk and 1 druid is entering a room with 2 goblin playing cards.
The Rogue enter the rogue undetected (he got levitate, silence and invisibility cast on him, so he leave no track, no sound and is invisible and he rolle 20 on hsi stealth check while everyone in the room rolled 1) The 2 allies are outside the room ready to attack when they receive the signal from the rogue.
The rogue attack goblin 1.
- Combat start everyone roll initiative. Monk get 20, Goblin1 get 16 rogue roll 15. Goblin2 get 10 and druid get 9
START OF ROUND 1 (Surprise round)
- The monk ready action to throw a dagger at Goblin2 once he receive the signal
- Goblin1 is unaware (not surprise) and play Ace of Spade and take a bite in a rat kabab.
- The rogue attack the goblin who become suprised by the attack and the rogue get his surprise bonus (auto crit, death attack etc...) and kill Goblin1 and signal his ally to attack. The monk use his reaction to act and throw a dagger toward Goblin2 and deal 4 damagesas per his ready action.
- Goblin2 is surprise by the attack and according to the PHB
If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends
p3ck wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
FrogReaver wrote: