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| #1Coredump00Oct 06, 2014 15:57:20 | Being 'Surprised' is not a Condition like 'incapacitated', its just something that can 'happen'.
Thus there is no rules explicitely covering exactly when it starts, nor when (or if) it ends.
Now, in general, this doesn't matter. The Surprised rule covers what does and doesn't happen, covering almost all situations. Except...
The Rogue/Assassin gets double crits if a target is "surprised"... so now it really matters when that non-condidtion condition ends.
1) When the target first gets a turn, it can't do anything but is no longer Surprised: Makes sense because it can now use a Reaction.
2) When the target first gets an Action: Makes sense because being able to act indicates you can't be surprised any more.
3) End of the first Round: Makes sense mostly from a historic sense, and a consistency sense. This way the target is always surprised for 1, and only 1 attack. (instead of 0-1 and 1-2 respectively.)
4) There is no end: This is the most RAW answer, but makes the least sense. Would make assassins *really* happy.
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| #2NoonOct 06, 2014 17:00:37 | It seems largely assigned by the GM.
You're basically asking when will the GM stop giving you a surprise round.
Of course that's not defined in the text. |
| #32ChlorobutanalOct 06, 2014 18:44:30 | From a super-strict reading of "surprised," a creature never stops being surprised in an encounter - it's just that "surprised" has no effect after a creature's first turn. This is sufficient for the majority of "surprise" cases, except for the Assassin. It would be technically possible to argue that an Assassin gets criticals and Death Strikes all combat long against somebody who was "surprised."
However, I think that's clearly counter to the intended capabilities of an Assassin and would say that "surprised" ends after a "surprised" creature's first turn - the point from which the creature can take reactions and act normally. |
| #4GrazelOct 06, 2014 20:05:34 | From the basic rules page 69:
If you are suprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
While this doesn't explicitly state when the surprised condition ends it's implied that it lasts until the end of the surprised creatures first turn as that's when the effects of surprise end on them. The rules of surprised also indicate it can only trigger at the start of an encounter (so technically before combat starts, and only affecting the first round of combat, no more suprise round where the party or monsters all get a free-for-all, instead it's a specific penalty on surprised creatures only). Hiding/stealth during combat is covered with advantage and sneak attack features, not another "surprise!" condition.
For comparison a poisoned creature no longer has the poisoned condition once they stop taking the effects of poison, a prone creature is no longer treated as prone once they stand up, etc. This establishes that conditions (even the special surprise condition) end when the creature is no longer taking the effects of the condition. |
| #52ChlorobutanalOct 06, 2014 21:29:51 | The difference in this case, though, from a very strict interpretation, is that the "surprised" effect states that it only causes a penalty during the first turn, not a general penalty.
For example, if "surprised" stated that "while you are surprised, you cannot move, take actions, or take reactions", once a character can take actions/reactions, they are no longer surprised.
However, "surprised" says that this applies "... on the first turn of the combat," without saying that surprise ends otherwise. Similarly, a "poisoned" character has disadvantage on attack rolls, but they are still poisoned even when not attacking. When their attack roll ends, even though the immediate penalties of "poisoned" are not applicable to the character, they are still "poisoned" until the condition is treated or expires through another rule or effect.
In the case of "surprised," it is tenuous but possible to state that "you're still surprised, it just doesn't do anything after the first turn." I personally don't think that's the intention, and not how I play surprise - I'm simply noting that there is in fact no duration listed for the surprised condition, nor a way to "cure" it explicitly. It's just (heavily) implied that after a "surprised" creature's first turn, it's no longer "surprised." |
| #6GrazelOct 07, 2014 0:44:18 | We're reading it differently then. I read it as ending at the end of the surprised creatures turn, just as prone ends when they stand up. Rather than having an indefinite duration surprise has a fixed duration. It's not a condition as conditions seem to last longer than one turn unless cured through interverntion (or player action like standing up to cure prone), instead it's like a pull or push where it has a fixed duration then ends. If surprise was meant to be cured or last beyond the stated effects it would (or at least should) have been included in the conditions section instead of being a temporary status. |
| #72ChlorobutanalOct 07, 2014 0:56:23 | I agree that "surprise" ends after a creature's first turn in an encounter, and that's how I had read it initially.
However, the rules never explicitly say this - in the case of "prone," there are rules to negate the prone effect, namely "standing up" (for which there are specific rules). If a character never stands up, the prescribed way to end the effect, they would never cease to be prone. There are no hard rules for "ending the surprised effect."
A push or a pull doesn't inflict a "status" on the victim (push or pull actually aren't strictly defined 5e terms either) - there's no such thing currently as "you have advantage on attack rolls against pushed people." |
| #8lawrencehoyOct 07, 2014 1:05:05 | The rule for Surprise states, in the last sentance of the second paragraph: "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
I would take this to mean, RAW, that the creature is only surprised for its first turn in an encounter; the surprise ending after that turn. |
| #9Coredump00Oct 07, 2014 7:51:45 | Which would be pretty huge nerf to the assassin's ability. It means Assassinate is all but a waste unless the rogue gets surprise *and* beats the target on initiative. Even with an 18 Dex against a 10 Dex, that fails to happen about 30% of the time. |
| #10Trance-ZgOct 07, 2014 8:42:03 | The rules are written that some characters can be surprised at start of combat and some are not. I.E. defference in perception checks. But what about being aware of one oponent and not the other?
what if a group of orcs, lets say 5 of them attack 2 characters and battle for 2 rounds and then silently 2 assasins attack the orcs. Are orcs surprised? its round 3 of combat, but only round one for rogues? Does assasinate works or not?
how would you rule it?
Maybe say that the orcs are surprised and after rogues attack. You roll initative again at it's a new combat actually.
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| #11TimboramaOct 07, 2014 10:20:21 |
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| (Reply to #11)Coredump00 |
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| #13GrazelOct 07, 2014 18:24:36 |
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| #14paulstraitOct 07, 2014 19:17:57 |
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| (Reply to #13)Coredump00 |
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| (Reply to #14)Coredump00 |
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| #17lawrencehoyOct 07, 2014 22:45:13 | I think it would have been better for the Assassinate and Death Strike sub-class features to have specified their use against a target that is "unaware of the assassin"; instead of the surprised and/or "hasn't taken a turn in combat yet" requirements. This would leave the features' usage more open to DM adjudication; but, should make them more useful at the same time. |
| #18paulstraitOct 08, 2014 0:00:57 |
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| (Reply to #16)2Chlorobutanal |
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| (Reply to #9)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #20)2Chlorobutanal |
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| (Reply to #16)Timborama |
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| (Reply to #21)Coredump00 |
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| #24BRJNOct 13, 2014 14:55:01 | I would rule that Surprise lasts for the first round (Round 1), and applies to anybody who has not yet come up in initiative order when the Assassin's turn comes up. (So Assasins should boost Init by all means available.)
I would also be open to the PCs setting up an ambush, once in a while but certainly not the majority of combats, so their assassin member can create a Round 0 just for the purpose of exploiting his ability. |
| #25SeuleslintanFeb 26, 2015 4:59:22 | ok whats now the RAW definition
i have an assassin dual wielding weapons or maybe hasted or multiclassed with fighter
say he has 2 attacks
he surprises his enemy. So the first combat round is without initiative and only you can act
so Assassin lvl 3 has to roll if he hits, and every hit counts as an critical hit, so double damage?
so both hitting attacks are intended as crits? |
| #26NoctaemFeb 26, 2015 6:23:36 |
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| #27SeuleslintanFeb 26, 2015 6:52:21 | ah thanks very much
so if you surprise your enemy and roll bad on initiative than he gets his turn before you, cant do anything, but you (assassin) dont get the assasinations benefit? |
| #28NoctaemFeb 26, 2015 7:03:01 |
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| #29Byakugan01Feb 28, 2015 4:07:16 | So...you are saying anyone who has ever BEEN surprised anytime in their whole life is permanently surprised...because it doesn't say it ends after combat.....
That is like looking up at the moon and attacking it until u get a 20 and tryign to roll damage.....Or trying to attack an enemy whos 3 miles away and saying your 20 automatically hits them....because the rules don't SAY a 20 misses if the target is out of range....it just says it AUTOMATICALLY hits. |
| #30Byakugan01Feb 28, 2015 4:08:49 | If you surprise the enemy....you get a surprise round....that is the whole point of assasinate....you don't get permanent assasinate on anything that was ever surprised. |
| #31Byakugan01Feb 28, 2015 4:15:46 | to clarify....a rogue only gets to use his sneak attack dice once per turn....so a 3rd level rogue with a shortsword would be dealing 3d6 + 3d6 +dex mod in a surprise round. Haste or dual wielding does not allow him to bypass that restriction.
your off hand weapon or haste attacks can still crit as normal....but those are far less signifigant than the first one.
And there is no double crits....until they get death attack or whatever its called WAAAAAY later on. |
| (Reply to #29)Macv12 |
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| #33NoctaemFeb 28, 2015 11:05:54 | From the surprised entry in the PHB:
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."
So you can't move or take an action on your first turn, not the full round, and once your first turn is over you can take a reaction as normal. It gives you how long surprise stays in effect (until the end of your first turn), what it does (can't move or take actions) and how reactions are handled (you can take one as normal after your first turn).
Second the Rogue's Assassin entry at level 3 states:
"You have combat advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in combat yet. In addition, ANY HIT you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit."
So then we have how the feature works. ANY HIT against a surprised creature is a critical hit. If you have multiple attacks and hit multiple times vs a surprised creature, they ALL become critical hits. However once a surprised creature has their turn they are no longer surprised and the assassin feature no longer affects them.
I have no idea what Byakugan01 is talking about. Most of what he just posted was completely nonsensical. |
| (Reply to #33)FrogReaver |
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| #35Byakugan01Mar 01, 2015 2:51:45 | I agree with you guys...the OP was trying to explain it like there is no way ever to remove being surprised. folks were talking about it in context of the length of one combat, but if being surprised didnt automatically end after round 1, then logic would follow through to the perma-surprise...which is silly. Clearly not RAI....or rules as heavily implied would dictare. |
| #36SeuleslintanMar 07, 2015 7:59:24 | so what happens if the assassin or other class is hidden and shoots from behind or swings his dagger in the back of his enemy?
all combatants have to roll initiative first?
it the surprised one rolls better initiative then he could shout alarm? and the assassin would get no advantage on the attack?
if the surprised is an barbarian with feral instinct then the barb could turn around and attack the assassin and the assassin would get no crit/advantage...? |
| #37NoonMar 08, 2015 22:50:58 | Shouting an alarm doesn't somehow remove surprise from other characters. Not by any rule, anyway. If your GM is doing that, take it up with him/her. |
| #38RealSeolforMar 09, 2015 1:24:47 | This particular line of questions are being asked concurrently in four different threads, all by Assasins, since theyre the ONLY subclass whose core feature is affected by it.
Thread 1 "Surprise Timing": http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-questions/threads/4150136 Thread 2 "Assasins in Combat..": http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-questions/threads/4191781 Thread 3 "Dealing Death, Assasin's Handbook ..": http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4149876 Thread 4: "Assasinate": http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4191956
Not one single Assasin is liking the answer to their query, but see below for what the PHB rules say, as well as the clarification by Mearls:
First, there is no 'Surprised' condition (like stunned, charmed etc.), neither are their Surprise rounds in 5E ruleset.
Second, as clarified by the designer 'When does a creature stop being surprised?" |
| #39SeuleslintanMar 09, 2015 3:00:30 |
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| (Reply to #38)Coredump00 |
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| #41RealSeolforMar 09, 2015 8:01:32 | Im not sure why youve taken my post to be directed at you personally Coredump00 :D
And the no 'ambiguity' bit ive added since discovering the clarification from Mearls.
This is D&D, 'no ambiguity' is a relative term, comeon, you know this!
Other than your feelings about the 'tone' of my post, do feel free to post any arguments about what im interpreting wrong about Surprise/Hiding/Assasinate, that will be productive for all who visit this thread.
Peace. |
| #42NoctaemMar 09, 2015 9:01:40 |
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| #43Coredump00Mar 09, 2015 9:51:50 |
IIRC, the clarification from Mearls if from awhile back, and the fact that it is Mearls (and not Crawford) gives ambiguity all on its own.
I disagree with your assertion that there is 'no ambiguity' and that people that disagree must be 'pedantic readers' using 'creative arguments'..... I *agree* with your interpretation, and still find it heavy handed and misrepresenting the situation at hand.
Your interpretation seems to be the 'best fit' for the info and rules we have... but it still leaves ambiguity, and it still leads to some non-sensical results. |
| #44NoctaemMar 09, 2015 9:58:05 |
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| #45FrogReaverMar 09, 2015 10:00:49 | The rules states: "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."
The contrapositve of a statement must be true.
Therefore: "If you can move and take an action on your first turn of combat, or you can take a reaction before that turn ends then you are not surprised".
Because of this the surprised condition gets checked for and reset by the first turn of each encounter. So by RAW the best we can say is that a creature that can act on the first turn of a combat is not suprised. This prevents the always surprised forever theory that some posters have theorized.
But it still leaves open the question of whether a creature can be considered as being surprised until the first round in it's next encounter.
Personally I like nocataems solution the best, but it does involve a certain level of interpretation and thus it's not RAW. The simple fact is that there is not a RAW answer concerning surprises end (other than we know it's ended if you can take actions and such on your first turn of a combat). |
| (Reply to #44)Coredump00 |
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| #47NoctaemMar 09, 2015 11:20:42 |
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| (Reply to #47)FrogReaver | The great RAW follower Nactaem just admitted he doesn't always follow RAW?
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| #49NoctaemMar 09, 2015 11:23:46 | I've never claimed to while DM'ing and I've explained this before to people like you.
Also which part of my post "doesn't follow the rules"? Just out of curiosity. |
| (Reply to #49)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #47)Coredump00 |
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| #52NoctaemMar 09, 2015 12:42:35 |
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| #53OrethalionMar 09, 2015 12:41:35 |
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| #54NoctaemMar 09, 2015 12:43:52 |
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| (Reply to #52)Coredump00 |
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| #56NoctaemMar 09, 2015 16:28:21 | I don't see any rules that say you can't make attacks outside of combat or in fact that attacks can ONLY be made in combat. So I don't understand the point of your post? Seems like your grasping at straws. The attack is what begins combat, the fact that the attacker is hidden from his target and that the target is unaware that it is under attack is what prompts surprise. Once the attack is resolved (because you don't pause attacks and you don't begin combat and roll initiative when no attack has been made / there's no reason to do so), combat begins and everyone rolls initiative at which point turns are played in order as usual. Maybe the assassin gets another attack against a surprised target, maybe he doesn't. |
| #57Coredump00Mar 09, 2015 18:19:14 | The rules are pretty darn clear, when you start combat, every rolls initiative, and the highest goes first (barring surprise), to state that you can just do attacks without anyone ever rolling initiative is creating new rules that simply dont' exist.
I can't believe you are trying to get people to believe that attacks happen and then everyone rolls intitiative.... not at all in the rules.
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| (Reply to #53)FrogReaver | Checked may may not have been the best word choice on my part.
The game doesn't exactly make checks for surprise.
What it does do is tell you what happens when you are surprised.
That means we can logically deduce when someone is not surprised when those things that are supposed to happen do not.
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| (Reply to #57)FrogReaver |
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| #60RealSeolforMar 09, 2015 21:01:16 |
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| #61RealSeolforMar 09, 2015 20:40:32 | Ah also, not sure if you're old enough to have played older editions of D&D, Rogues were - not allowed to sneak damage from beyond 30 feet or 'only in melee' in some cases - sneak damage was coupled with you being hidden from enemy
5E has made it trivial for Rogues to get sneak damage on every single attack. (Merely attacking into an enemy engaged in melee, which ironically was a bad thing in 3E and needed a feat to remedy). Consistent high damage, that's your 'thing' in 5E. Now if you want advantage on every single attack AND want auto crit nova rounds at start of every encounter - the framework as i and most others interpret,make it hard - as I said, feel free to argue otherwise with your GM. |
| #62OrethalionMar 09, 2015 22:03:43 |
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| (Reply to #60)Coredump00 |
Wow, you spent a lot f time writing... if you bothered to put a fraction of that effort into *reading* you would not have gotten so many things wrong.
Most of what you claim is not only false, but provably so by simply reading what I have explicitly written.
But hey, dont' let things like facts get in the way of you 'potty time fun'
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| #64NoctaemMar 10, 2015 5:02:31 |
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| (Reply to #64)Coredump00 |
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| #66OrethalionMar 10, 2015 8:24:39 |
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| #67RealSeolforMar 10, 2015 8:56:53 |
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| #68NoctaemMar 10, 2015 9:07:46 |
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| (Reply to #67)Coredump00 |
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| #70OrethalionMar 10, 2015 9:36:58 |
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| (Reply to #65)FrogReaver |
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| #72OrethalionMar 10, 2015 11:10:45 |
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| (Reply to #72)FrogReaver |
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| #74NoctaemMar 10, 2015 12:31:29 | I don't understand where you're getting this notion that what we're talking about does not work when some opponents are not surprised while others are. That actually makes no sense at all. |
| (Reply to #74)FrogReaver |
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| #76NoctaemMar 10, 2015 12:35:27 | I think this would work better if you actually bothered to explain in detail why it wouldn't. All you've done is make a claim that it wouldn't without bothering to provide any evidence of that claim. Which is why I don't understand where you're coming from or why you're even trying to claim it wouldn't. And what exactly wouldn't work? Explain yourself.... |
| (Reply to #76)FrogReaver |
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| #78NoctaemMar 10, 2015 13:10:22 | K so obviously from your explanation, which is why I didn't bother re-explaining it to you (you should really have just read the previous posts properly), you've misunderstood a few things. Taking your own example:
Ranged attack(s) by Assassin Archer with the hidden condition (only good for the first attack if there are multiple due to level for example), so he has advantage but does not benefit from anything related to surprise unless the DM decides he does since surprise is only something that can happen during the first round of combat by RAW. Attacking prompts surprise for the first round of combat which is now engaged and warranted. Everyone Rolls initiative and the DM decides who is surprised and who is not. ROUND 1 Monster A gets his turn, if he is surprised he cannot take actions. Once his turn is over he is no longer surprised and may take a reaction as per normal. Assassin Archer gets his first turn of the combat encounter and he may attack surprised creatures (if any) and benefit from doing so. Monster B gets his turn. and so on...
Further your claim that it's not raw to do the above is completely baseless. Please show me a rule that says the above is illegal? Or better yet that you can only make attacks in combat? Or further that when a player states he wants to attack something, the DM must pause the game and have everyone immediately roll initiative before that attack is ever resolved which might not even warrant combat ever happening in the first place. |
| #79OrethalionMar 10, 2015 13:16:29 |
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| (Reply to #79)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #78)FrogReaver |
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| #82OrethalionMar 10, 2015 14:23:33 |
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| #83OrethalionMar 10, 2015 14:29:14 |
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| #84NoctaemMar 10, 2015 14:42:20 |
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| (Reply to #83)FrogReaver |
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| #86NoctaemMar 10, 2015 15:22:37 | If you weren't making strawmen he might have something to complain about. |
| #87OrethalionMar 10, 2015 15:13:01 |
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| #88OrethalionMar 10, 2015 15:14:54 |
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| #89NoctaemMar 10, 2015 15:23:12 |
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