Surprise? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mvincent Aug 06, 2014 13:49:24	The initial encounter in "Lost Mine of Phandelver" instructs the DM to make one stealth roll for a group of goblins that are ambushing the PC's (sure, that made sense to me). Their ambush worked great. Later, the PC's decided they want to ambush some foes in the exact same way. The DM had them each roll stealth, and invariably someone in the party rolled low... which would likely be the case even if every party member was as stealthy as a goblin. As in earlier editions, I think many 5e DM's will treat PC's differently from NPC's in regard to suprise, creating a situation where the PC's will rarely pull off an ambush (but will frequently get ambushed). Is there a good way around this? For reference, the D&D Basic Rules (p.69) say: "the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter"
#2 iserith Aug 06, 2014 14:11:27	I think it's either an oversight or something they put in LMOP to make it easy on new DMs. The rules on page 69 are what matter in my view.
#3 mvincent Aug 06, 2014 16:40:57	iserith wrote:
(Reply to #3) Overpromises	That is an issue in actual ambushes. It is easier for fewer people to stay undetected.
#5 Archon007 Aug 06, 2014 19:59:17	Might want to place a spoiler alert in your title next time since any player just learned about the first encounter of a printed adventure which is pretty crappy. The PCs make a group stealth roll if half or more party succeed the whole party succeeds. This is different than a surprise roll.
#6 DM_HEEGZ Aug 06, 2014 21:12:02	Use the "Group Checks" rule on p. 59 of the Basic pdf for this type of stealth situation. Group Checks When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren’t. To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails. Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural hazards of the environment. If at least half the group succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group stumbles into one of these hazards.
(Reply to #5) Valheru_Blade	Archon007 wrote:
#8 Plaguescarred1 Aug 07, 2014 13:36:58	Lost Mine of Phandelver used a different method than what the rules suggest for Surprise or Group check, going with a single check for all creatures (perhaps even a guideline in the DMG). I don't expect to it to be the norm in published adventures, but rather the exception. DM should feel free to handle it in any way they prefer, each has pros and cons.
#9 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 13:39:37	Stealth is one of the few checks I don't see working as a group check. I don't see how the halfling rogues ability to move really quietly helps the clumsy dwarf fighter in plate do so. In my opinion, if one fails to be stealthy, they give away the threat of danger, and the opportunity for surprise. Up to the DM though, naturally
#10 mrpopstar Aug 07, 2014 16:13:29	kanageddaamen wrote:
#11 kanageddaamen Aug 07, 2014 16:56:07	mrpopstar wrote:
#12 Psikerlord Aug 08, 2014 0:13:55	To answer the OP: its a judgment call for the DM, use group checks, and /or passive pefception, as and when you think it will work well or is appropriate. The rules are purposely flexible that way - adopt an approach that works best for the scenario or for your table's preferences.
#13 TrueManiek Aug 08, 2014 1:21:22	kanageddaamen wrote:
#14 mrpopstar Aug 08, 2014 4:55:28	kanageddaamen wrote:
#15 kanageddaamen Aug 08, 2014 5:34:23	mrpopstar wrote:
#16 aljergensen Aug 08, 2014 6:10:40	Or the DM could rule that the dexterous elf caught the clumsy dwarf just before he fell, preventing him from making enough noise to warn the goblins. When doing a group check, think about how (or if) the group can work together and what will be the most fun.
#17 Hugin Aug 08, 2014 7:12:29	kanageddaamen wrote:
#18 Pauper Aug 08, 2014 7:16:28	Keep in mind as well that, when the goblins are setting an ambush for the party, the characters are likely to have different Passive Perception scores; some will have high Wisdom, some will be able to add proficiency. Having the goblins roll as a unit is simply seeing if they can beat the highest Passive Perception in the party. On the other hand, when the party sets an ambush for goblins, all the goblins are likely to have the same Passive Perception, and it will likely be significantly lower than the highest Passive Perception in the party. This makes a party ambushing goblins significantly easier than goblins ambushing a party if you go with just one roll for the whole party (which is almost certainly going to be made by the character with the highest Stealth check). If that's the way you like things in your game, where adventurers are always significantly better at tasks than monsters are, then that's fine -- do whatever works for you. If you'd like to even up the odds a bit, though, either because it seems more 'realistic' (with the caveat that we're playing a fantasy game where people can shoot fire from their fingertips) or because it seems more fair, then use a group check or have each character make his or her own check. All depends how you want to play. -- Pauper
#19 kanageddaamen Aug 08, 2014 7:18:24	aljergensen wrote:
(Reply to #9) bgbarcus	kanageddaamen wrote:
#21 Hugin Aug 08, 2014 8:23:44	bgbarcus wrote:
#22 kanageddaamen Aug 08, 2014 8:31:56	bgbarcus wrote:
(Reply to #15) Overpromises	kanageddaamen wrote:
#24 mvincent Aug 08, 2014 10:12:11	Pauper wrote:
#25 aljergensen Aug 08, 2014 10:15:09	If doing a group stealth check and one PC fails, having another character do some kind of dexterity based check to save the day (or perhaps give the clumsy PC a reroll) sounds like a good idea. It's a pretty common trope in movies/tv to have Mr Clumsy knock over something as they are trying to sneak only to have Mr Dexterity catch the object while they exchange "the look". It's something as a DM I would like to use now and then. An alternative is to effectively split the party and have them approach from different directions. So the clumsy dwarf provides a distraction while the stealthy halfling sneaks up from the rear. The point is to set up fun encounters, not to have a situation where the group can never surprise anyone because one PC chose to play a tank.
(Reply to #25) Overpromises	aljergensen wrote:
#27 mrpopstar Aug 08, 2014 10:56:45	Overpromises wrote:
#28 kanageddaamen Aug 08, 2014 12:53:24	aljergensen wrote:
(Reply to #28) Overpromises	kanageddaamen wrote:
#30 kanageddaamen Aug 08, 2014 13:20:15	Overpromises wrote:
#31 aljergensen Aug 08, 2014 14:44:29	When it comes to splitting the party into stealthy and non-stealthy groups I was thinking of a couple of scenarios. I'm sure there are others. Assume that the group is searching for a goblin camp in the woods. McSneaky the rogue was scouting and found the camp. Break the group up into the A-Team with stealthy characters and the B-Team with non-stealthy characters. Scenario 1 The B-Team gets as close to the camp as they can before needing stealth checks. The A-Team circles around and (assume they succeed on stealth checks). Round 1: The A-Team starts combat by attacking. The surprised goblins don't get to act. The non-stealthy PCs can act in the first round since they are not surprised. Depending on how DM runs the combat, they may need to wait for a signal from the A-Team to know when the goblin's turn is over. Since there is no delay, members of the A-Team may need to ready an action to dash towards the camp. If their initiative is lower than the goblins, they act normally. Round 2: Combat as normal. The B-Team may still be closing with the camp. Scenario 2: The A-Team gets close to the camp and hide. The B-Team starts combat by walking right up to the camp, screaming "Death to Goblins!" Round 1: The goblins and the B-Team act normally. The A-Team gets advantage on their first round because the goblins are distracted enough by the A-Team yelling to allow them to maintain stealth long enough to attack.
#32 kanageddaamen Aug 08, 2014 14:49:20	aljergensen wrote:
#33 mrpopstar Aug 08, 2014 15:15:44	Overpromises wrote:
(Reply to #31) Overpromises	aljergensen wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

mvincent

Aug 06, 2014 13:49:24

The initial encounter in "Lost Mine of Phandelver" instructs the DM to make one stealth roll for a group of goblins that are ambushing the PC's (sure, that made sense to me). Their ambush worked great.

Later, the PC's decided they want to ambush some foes in the exact same way. The DM had them each roll stealth, and invariably someone in the party rolled low... which would likely be the case even if every party member was as stealthy as a goblin.

As in earlier editions, I think many 5e DM's will treat PC's differently from NPC's in regard to suprise, creating a situation where the PC's will rarely pull off an ambush (but will frequently get ambushed).

Is there a good way around this?

For reference, the D&D Basic Rules (p.69) say: "the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter"

iserith

Aug 06, 2014 14:11:27

I think it's either an oversight or something they put in LMOP to make it easy on new DMs. The rules on page 69 are what matter in my view.

mvincent

Aug 06, 2014 16:40:57

iserith wrote:

(Reply to #3)

Overpromises

That is an issue in actual ambushes. It is easier for fewer people to stay undetected.

Archon007

Aug 06, 2014 19:59:17

Might want to place a spoiler alert in your title next time since any player just learned about the first encounter of a printed adventure which is pretty crappy.

The PCs make a group stealth roll if half or more party succeed the whole party succeeds. This is different than a surprise roll.

DM_HEEGZ

Aug 06, 2014 21:12:02

Use the "Group Checks" rule on p. 59 of the Basic pdf for this type of stealth situation.

Group Checks

When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish
something as a group, the DM might ask for a group
ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are
skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren’t.

To make a group ability check, everyone in the group
makes the ability check. If at least half the group
succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the
group fails.

Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re
most useful when all the characters succeed or
fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are
navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group
Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can
avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural
hazards of the environment. If at least half the group
succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide
their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group

stumbles into one of these hazards.

(Reply to #5)

Valheru_Blade

Archon007 wrote:

Plaguescarred1

Aug 07, 2014 13:36:58

Lost Mine of Phandelver used a different method than what the rules suggest for Surprise or Group check, going with a single check for all creatures (perhaps even a guideline in the DMG). I don't expect to it to be the norm in published adventures, but rather the exception. DM should feel free to handle it in any way they prefer, each has pros and cons.

kanageddaamen

Aug 07, 2014 13:39:37

Stealth is one of the few checks I don't see working as a group check. I don't see how the halfling rogues ability to move really quietly helps the clumsy dwarf fighter in plate do so. In my opinion, if one fails to be stealthy, they give away the threat of danger, and the opportunity for surprise.

Up to the DM though, naturally

#10

mrpopstar

Aug 07, 2014 16:13:29

kanageddaamen wrote:

#11

kanageddaamen

Aug 07, 2014 16:56:07

mrpopstar wrote:

#12

Psikerlord

Aug 08, 2014 0:13:55

To answer the OP: its a judgment call for the DM, use group checks, and /or passive pefception, as and when you think it will work well or is appropriate. The rules are purposely flexible that way - adopt an approach that works best for the scenario or for your table's preferences.

#13

TrueManiek

Aug 08, 2014 1:21:22

kanageddaamen wrote:

#14

mrpopstar

Aug 08, 2014 4:55:28

kanageddaamen wrote:

#15

kanageddaamen

Aug 08, 2014 5:34:23

mrpopstar wrote:

#16

aljergensen

Aug 08, 2014 6:10:40

Or the DM could rule that the dexterous elf caught the clumsy dwarf just before he fell, preventing him from making enough noise to warn the goblins. When doing a group check, think about how (or if) the group can work together and what will be the most fun.

#17

Hugin

Aug 08, 2014 7:12:29

kanageddaamen wrote:

#18

Pauper

Aug 08, 2014 7:16:28

Keep in mind as well that, when the goblins are setting an ambush for the party, the characters are likely to have different Passive Perception scores; some will have high Wisdom, some will be able to add proficiency. Having the goblins roll as a unit is simply seeing if they can beat the highest Passive Perception in the party.

On the other hand, when the party sets an ambush for goblins, all the goblins are likely to have the same Passive Perception, and it will likely be significantly lower than the highest Passive Perception in the party. This makes a party ambushing goblins significantly easier than goblins ambushing a party if you go with just one roll for the whole party (which is almost certainly going to be made by the character with the highest Stealth check).

If that's the way you like things in your game, where adventurers are always significantly better at tasks than monsters are, then that's fine -- do whatever works for you. If you'd like to even up the odds a bit, though, either because it seems more 'realistic' (with the caveat that we're playing a fantasy game where people can shoot fire from their fingertips) or because it seems more fair, then use a group check or have each character make his or her own check.

All depends how you want to play.

Pauper

#19

kanageddaamen

Aug 08, 2014 7:18:24

aljergensen wrote:

(Reply to #9)

bgbarcus

kanageddaamen wrote:

#21

Hugin

Aug 08, 2014 8:23:44

bgbarcus wrote:

#22

kanageddaamen

Aug 08, 2014 8:31:56

bgbarcus wrote:

(Reply to #15)

Overpromises

kanageddaamen wrote:

#24

mvincent

Aug 08, 2014 10:12:11

Pauper wrote:

#25

aljergensen

Aug 08, 2014 10:15:09

If doing a group stealth check and one PC fails, having another character do some kind of dexterity based check to save the day (or perhaps give the clumsy PC a reroll) sounds like a good idea.

It's a pretty common trope in movies/tv to have Mr Clumsy knock over something as they are trying to sneak only to have Mr Dexterity catch the object while they exchange "the look". It's something as a DM I would like to use now and then.

An alternative is to effectively split the party and have them approach from different directions. So the clumsy dwarf provides a distraction while the stealthy halfling sneaks up from the rear.

The point is to set up fun encounters, not to have a situation where the group can never surprise anyone because one PC chose to play a tank.

(Reply to #25)

Overpromises

aljergensen wrote:

#27

mrpopstar

Aug 08, 2014 10:56:45

Overpromises wrote:

#28

kanageddaamen

Aug 08, 2014 12:53:24

aljergensen wrote:

(Reply to #28)

Overpromises

kanageddaamen wrote:

#30

kanageddaamen

Aug 08, 2014 13:20:15

Overpromises wrote:

#31

aljergensen

Aug 08, 2014 14:44:29

When it comes to splitting the party into stealthy and non-stealthy groups I was thinking of a couple of scenarios. I'm sure there are others.

Assume that the group is searching for a goblin camp in the woods. McSneaky the rogue was scouting and found the camp. Break the group up into the A-Team with stealthy characters and the B-Team with non-stealthy characters.

Scenario 1
The B-Team gets as close to the camp as they can before needing stealth checks.

The A-Team circles around and (assume they succeed on stealth checks).

Round 1:
The A-Team starts combat by attacking.

The surprised goblins don't get to act.

The non-stealthy PCs can act in the first round since they are not surprised. Depending on how DM runs the combat, they may need to wait for a signal from the A-Team to know when the goblin's turn is over. Since there is no delay, members of the A-Team may need to ready an action to dash towards the camp. If their initiative is lower than the goblins, they act normally.

Round 2:
Combat as normal. The B-Team may still be closing with the camp.

Scenario 2:
The A-Team gets close to the camp and hide.

The B-Team starts combat by walking right up to the camp, screaming "Death to Goblins!"

Round 1:
The goblins and the B-Team act normally.

The A-Team gets advantage on their first round because the goblins are distracted enough by the A-Team yelling to allow them to maintain stealth long enough to attack.

#32

kanageddaamen

Aug 08, 2014 14:49:20

aljergensen wrote:

#33

mrpopstar

Aug 08, 2014 15:15:44

Overpromises wrote:

(Reply to #31)

Overpromises

aljergensen wrote: