So I'm prepping for the last few sessions of my 1-20 5E campaign. 2 long years of consistent play. The final boss (among other things) will be a marauding Tarrasque. There is a wizard in the party who loves to cast Maze, so I know it's coming. The spell says victims can use their action to escape the maze. For legendary creatures which have legendary actions, would you say this qualification could be met with one of their Legendary Actions? Or would you say Tarrasque has to wait until their initiative order for them to attempt escape? Thanks!
Legendary actions are restricted to the particular list given for the monster. Don't have my MM here, but unless the Tarrasque has a leg action that looks like it applies, then I don't think it will help. Though of course you could just house rules a new leg action option if you think it would make the battle better. Might annoy the wizard though.
Legendary resistance won't help either because its not a save.
I'd say it's up to you as a DM and what will make the encounter more challenging and fun. Just remember it's not you vs the PCs and sometimes the PCs should get to do something cheesy if the group has fun with it.
The legendary actions are a limited resource so I'd consider allowing them to use their extra attack to "rip apart" the maze.
The official answer would be no.
As a player I would get seriously pissed off if the DM changed the rules just to nerf a plan which does work according to the rules.
It is simply cheating. Tarrasques are hard enough!
You might think it would be a 'more interesting encounter' if you just decided that none of the PCs could affect it an any way, but I guarentee that the players won't think that. Facing the Tarrasque, they know they'll have to bring their A-game. If you arbitrarily decide to give it abilities it doesn't have, and these abilities suddenly appear and suddenly mean that it negates what the players do, that's not fun.
Imagine that your local pub soccer team is drawn to play the Brazil national team. Your going to have your work cut out for you, to say the least! What you don't need is the referee to rule that the Brazilians can now use their hands without penalty. This is cheating!
Well, I can't claim any first hand experience, but on paper the tarrasque looks pretty easy for a resourceful high level party, and people have posted they found it that way in practice too. So in fact making the tarrasque harder might make the fight better. I think the individual DM would need to make that call.
Even so I would worry about screwing the wizard. I'd at least find a way to let him know maze might not work if you do go that way.
jaelis wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
mbeacom wrote:
To be more clear, the first encounter with the Tarrasque is meant to be a route where the players learn how badaxx the tarrasque is. I plan to put the encounter in a place/environment that will strongly benefit the tarrasque so as to assist in making the characters panic and feel ineffective. I'm not planning on character death at this point, just showing them that typical plans won't be as effective, that the tarrasque is on a different level, initiating a "back to the drawing board" moment which I feel the tarrasque deserves. There will then be a session of investigation, research and acquiring of beneficial items, at which point, they will then take a second swing at the tarrasque more in an environment of their choosing (to the parties advantage based on what they've learned) and with character death being a matter of dice and planning, without the DM armor that I'll provide in the first encounter. The point will be to complete these objectives as quickly as possible, diminishing the destruction of the tarrasque while they figure out how to best send it back to wherever it came from, avoiding another route because they have new strategies and equipment based on their research. It will all be a tension filled rush to figure out how to defeat an industructible engine of carnage before it can level entire cities.
I'd say that it cannot use its Legendary Action to escape the maze. Effectively, the 20th-level wizard can send the tarrasque away, where it can't be damaged or affected, for up to 10 minutes. So in exchange for an 8th-level spell, the PCs get a short window to prepare themselves, evacuate the citizenry, affect the battlefield in a way that is disadvantageous to the tarrasque, etc. while it's gone. Such a wizard could only do this once, short of busting off a wish spell to duplicate its effects. I don't see any compelling reason to make it harder on the PCs in this case. (Even it could use its Legendary Actions to make that Intelligence check, the DC is 20 and its Int bonus is -4, so it has no chance of success.)
As to whether the tarrasque will be an effective challenge for top-tier characters, that comes down to how you design the scene. If you want some help with that, post in DM Help and I'm sure you'll get some responses. At least from me, if nobody else.
iserith wrote:
Hah when it comes back from the maze there are two of them 
What exactly do legendary actions gain it except more chances to escape?
jaelis wrote:
jaelis wrote:
mbeacom wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
No tone of voice in this text medium. Had we been speaking, you'd know I wasn't being sarcastic, just factual.
As to the 'issue', you've lost me. Which of the tarrasques legendary actions do you think you could use to attempt to escape a maze spell?k
Or are you being sarcastic. It's hard to tell.
ArialBlack wrote:
mbeacom wrote:
mbeacom wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
On your turn, you can move up to your speed, and take one action. Page189.
On p192 (Actions In Combat) it tells us that we can take one of the actions printed in this chapter, or an action gained from your class or special feature, or an action you can improvise. Monsters have actions of their own in their stat blocks.
The maze spell allows the creature caught to use its action to try to escape. Its action, not its bonus action, not its reaction, not its legendary action. Only its action.
On the subject of adding words, you assert that the maze spell says you can replace your action with an escape attempt, and you base your whole argument on that to justify replacing a legendary action.
But maze never says anything about replacing an action with an escape. What it says is, 'The target can use its action to attempt to escape.'
Just like a creature uses its action to disengage, uses its action to dodge, uses its action to attack, uses its action to hide, etc. 'Attempting to escape' the maze is just another way to use its action. And when it says 'use its action', it's talking about, 'on your turn you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action'.
You can only dodge, disengage, attack etc using your bonus action/reaction/legendary action if you have specific written permission to do so. Monks can use their bonus action to dodge by spending ki, rogues can use their bonus action to disengage because their Cunning Action class feature gives them permission. Tarrasques can use their legendary action to attack, but they only have permission to attack with claw or tail when attacking with a legendary action.
Maze gives you permission to use your action to attempt to escape. It does not give you permission to use your bonus action, reaction or legendary action to attempt this escape. Just like a grappled creature can use its action to escape, it has no permission to use its bonus action/reaction/legendary action to escape a grapple.
When the spell says you can use your action to escape, it's not joking. It means exactly what it says.
It is feasible that a legendary creature could have a legendary action which allows an escape attempt, in the same way that rogues can use a bonus action to disengage. But it would need to be a specific, written legendary action in its stat block for legendary actions. It could be specifically about the maze spell, or about any escape attempt, or something that could be applied to this case. But the tarrasque only has: attack, move, or chomp. None of those helps you escape from a maze.
mbea, if your reading were correct, then wouldn't it mean the tarrasque could perform any of it's regular actions (bite, for instance) as a legendary action? The book seems pretty clear that isn't possible.
ArialBlack wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Ok, so I think I have a way to have it play out that integrates all the feedback I've gotten in this thread.
So, wizard will inevitably cast maze.
At this point, I need more feedback. Would you guys announce immediately that the PCs have 10 minutes (because tarrasque can't get out mechanically speaking), or simply maintain initiative for a bit while they realize it can't get out (i'll roll the int check and fail a few times/rounds). In previous high level encounters, Maze is not a guaranteed 10 minutes. For example, the Empyrean he cast it on was able to escape on his next turn. I'm trying to decide if it is more dramatic to let them realize the creature is too dumb to escape or if its more dramatic to simply say something along the lines of "someone start a stop watch, you have 10 minutes to prepare for the return of the tarrasque".
But anyway, besides that, I'll make it clear the Tarrasque is literally destroying the maze (hat tip: ooftameg), just absolutely demolishing it. Maybe so bad that for the next few times the wizard casts maze, the creatures sent there will be sent to a pile of rubble instead. Just to give narrative weight to the tarrasque though. This will have no mechanical implications to the maze spell function.
But either immediately or over time, they'll realize the creature can't get out because it is too dumb (hat tip: Jaelis and Masternamer).
And, because it's so angry that it can no longer use its legendary actions (hat tip: Arialblack) then when it comes back, it's going to go berserk, probably doing increased damage but attacking at disadvantage or something, not necessarily targeting the PCs. So maze will give them a rest, but it will also incense the tarrasque.
I basically want to make the Maze a thing (rather than a rote spell) Like, make it matter, have it impact the story and have the story impact the spell. This should also help give the wizard a moment where, because of his actions, things have changed (both the rest and berserk state).
Now, to Arial, since I feel like you've got the most sensitivity on this issue. Would you, as the wizard, feel screwed in that situation? That the tarrasque was berserking when he finally gets out? If so, please give feedback on how you would change it keeping in mind, I want the maze spell to have some impact on the tarrasque outside of simply voiping it out for 10 minutes.
I think that the tarrasque's emotional response to being mazed is spot on. : ) Nothing for the wizard's player to whine about. You're not arbitrarily changing any rules, you're simply role-playing its response.
Good one. : )
I like Big T destroying the Maze.
But I don't see why Big T is going to be mad about being stuck in it. To Big T, wouldn't a normal city look like a maze?
I don't know what fluff the Wizard put on his Maze. If it's supposed to be someplace else - in the Feywild (say) - later he could get a visit from a Feywild native, chewing him out for putting Big T in there and smashing up their environment.
And that offers another thought: Big T is in the Natural World because somebody on another plane cast Maze on it and it went HERE.
PS here's a smiley you might like 
BRJN wrote:
A lot of the discussion in this thread highlights one big problem my dm and I have found in the naming of actions in the rules. We have chosen to us the term 'Standard Action' for anywhere it says just 'action' because really from what we can tell and what seems to be the consensus you have 5 different things in the "things you can do" category;
Actions
Bonuse actions
Reactions
Legendary actions
Object Interactions
None of these are subsets or really relate to eachother at all. Sometimes you can trade one for another but never both ways(Action->Object Interaction but Object interaction-/>Action), so they cannot be viewed like currency. This is why we use the term 'Standard Action' to make it more clear that something that says you can use your action to do something means your 'Standard Action' not any of the 5 things that include the word "action".
Not sure if this helps you but that is how the rules seem to be written and work. I really wish the guys who wrote the PHB had taken some time to talk to the Magic R&D team. They have gotten to a point in mtg where most text blocks can be read and transferred into rules and usage very easily because they have codified their syntax. That kind of system would have been grately appreciated.
Kithas48 wrote:
mbeacom wrote:
I agree with the rest of the posters that according to the rules, the Tarrasque will be gone for the full duration of the Maze spell.
But I'm ok with bending the rules a bit for funs sake.
The Maze spell says it banishes the creature to a labyrinthine demiplane. It doesn't state the spell creates this demiplane, so it could be a demiplane that every maze spell uses to dump people in. The owner of the demiplane probably allows that because he enjoys seeing the victims scurry through his maze. The owner could be a minotaur deity or Jareth the Goblin King.
The spell allows an intelligence check to escape, symbolizing the victim using his wits to find a way out. The Tarrasque is something else than the average victim. It's huge. It's powerful. It deals extra damage to structures. It's not subtle. The Tarrasque caught in the demiplane won't use his wits to escape the maze...it'll start to barge straight through walls to get where it wants to go.
After 5 minutes of the duration I'd have the Tarrasque reappearing on the spot where he was, in a crash of bricks and mortar. Or an angry Jareth/minotaur deity appears to tell the wizard to stop concentrating on the spell now and pull the Tarrasque back, because the darn thing is wrecking his labyrinth.
Razintarr wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
mbeacom wrote:
You could always roll a 20 on the save and break free of the maze.
EthanSental wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Razintarr wrote:
Isn't each Tarrasque unique to its dimension? If you push one to the Maze dimension, you push the Maze Tarasque out into your dimension...
And he's a lot bigger and meaner than your Tarrasque.
MarcCCTx wrote:
jaelis wrote: