Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 RenoGM Jan 28, 2015 9:22:31	Looking for some thoughts from the community about this.   I was thinking it might make more sense for a grapple or a shove to be attacks that cause the target to make a Strength saving throw instead of a contested ability check. My rationale for this is:   An attack roll seems inappropriate because touching the target shouldn't be an issue. A contest almost seems like the target is taking an action (which seems "off" to me). Virtually ever other attack is either an attack roll or a saving throw. And to quote the DMG (page 238) on when to use a Strength saving throw; "Opposing a force that would physically move or bind you", which sounds a lot like a grapple or shove. Anyway what are your thoughts on this?
#2 iserith Jan 28, 2015 9:29:21	Contests happen when one creature is trying to prevent another from accomplishing a goal. In this case, the goal is to grapple or shove someone.   It sounds like a Strength saving throw would also be appropriate, but that typically follows some kind of attack that doesn't use an ability check or attack roll such as a spell or some hazard or trap.
(Reply to #2) RenoGM	iserith wrote:
#4 mellored Jan 28, 2015 9:35:17	It makes it less swingy.  Right now, a terrasque (+10) can fail to grapple/shove a 8 str wizard (-1) 9% of the time.   With a save, (assuming DC = Str + 10), the wizard has no chance.   But overall, it's fine.
(Reply to #4) RenoGM	mellored wrote:
#6 mrpopstar Jan 28, 2015 11:20:08	RenoGM wrote:
#7 paulstrait Jan 28, 2015 17:02:20	mellored wrote:
#8 Illithidbix Jan 28, 2015 19:42:32	Contests work fine for me.   Although it does massively aid players who have Athletics prof' since very few monsters have Athletics or Acrobatics trained.  (Mostly just giants, apes and centaurs from what I recall).     One thing about shoving though is that because there is actually no way in 5E to change your initative order, it's very dependent on how many allies get their turn before the shoved target gets back to their feet on their turn. (Ready allows you to act later when a trigger occurs, but your initative count does not change.
(Reply to #8) Yunru	Illithidbix wrote:
#10 mellored Jan 29, 2015 6:50:44	paulstrait wrote:
#11 EzechielDantan Jan 29, 2015 11:00:23	I houseruled in a save bonus equal to half proficiency (rounded down) if you are not proficent with that particular kind of save. Shoving and grappling either uses athletics or a strength / dex save.   The rules work both ways, but I found that creatures were slightly lacking when players have access to feats. This straightens things out a bit and gives characters some defensive growth without magical items.