Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 TheCriticalFail Nov 10, 2014 15:20:01	So, having taken a quick glance and finding no clear answer on this (sorry if it has been confirmed somewhere already) I have a quick question about thrown weapons. Namely:   For purposes of feats and attacks, do thrown weapons count as melee weapons always, count as ranged weapons on ranged attacks or count as neither when thrown? Origin of this is I was trying to plan a thrown weapons build and asked this question of my DM, which sparked some controversy at our table.   I was of the opinion that they would still count as a "melee weapon" making a ranged attack, due to the fact that they appear in only the melee section of the table, the thrown text states "if the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use to make a melee attack with the weapon" clearly implying that the weapon is still considered a melee weapon for the purposes of the attack and because text throughout the book clearly differentiates between "melee weapon attacks" and "melee attacks" again implying that a melee weapon attack is not always in melee range.   This to me seemed to make it pretty clear that thrown weapons would NOT benefit from ranged attack feats and abilities like sharpshooter or archery (which from the names, i.e. archery, also strongly imply they wouldn't) but WOULD gain the benefit of being a melee weapon even when used at range i.e. paladin's divine smite could be used.   Another member of our table stated that they considered it to be a melee weapon in combat and a ranged weapon when thrown. While I disagree with this due to way melee weapon attacks and melee attacks are differentiated in the book and the wording on thrown weapons as mentioned earlier, this does at least make them somewhat usable. My DM was of the opinion that they didn't count as a melee weapon, but also stated that since they didn't appear under the ranged weapon table and were never referred to as ranged weapons they couldn't benefit from archery or sharpshooter. This makes a thrown weapon build essentially unusable as it will be completely unable to benefit from the majority of abilities of any feats or class.   How would most people rule this? Personally I think the RAW is pretty clear that they should still be considered melee weapons, but have most people been using them as ranged weapons regardless of this and the inconsistencies in text? Has it been clarified anywhere that they should be considered ranged weapons? Or is it actually true that thrown weapons gain essentially no benefits as a ranged character?   Thank you for your time,   TheCriticalFail
#2 Nominrath Nov 10, 2014 23:48:48	Well, in the beginning of the Weapons section it clearly states:   "A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance."   By that definiton alone any weapon that is thrown (property or not) would be classified as a ranged weapon. The way I see it, a weapon with the Thrown property is both a melee and a ranged weapon. It's classification would change depending on its use. If it's used to make a melee attack, it's a melee weapon; if it's used to make a ranged attack, it's a ranged weapon. And I really do believe it really is that simple.   For me, the classification of "melee" or "ranged" weapons on the Weapon Table is more of an indication of its "intended", most beneficial use. For example, a longsword is intended to be a melee weapon, but there's nothing saying it can't be hurled at a foe. Sure, it probably won't go that far and wouldn't be easy to pull off, but at that point it is no longer a "melee" weapon... it is most assuredly "ranged". The same mindset applies to damage types too. A longsword is stated as dealing slashing damage, but the last time I checked, a longsword still came to a point and could probably be used to stab and pierce if needed.   When I read the text for the Thrown property, it says, "If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack." This, by the defintion of ranged weapons in the Weapons section, makes it a ranged weapon. But then it says, "If the weapon thrown is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon." I think this is just refering to the weapon's stated classification for clarification on what ability to use when attackin and dealing damage.   In the same vein, I think those abilities/feats/spells/etc. that refer to melee weapon attacks or ranged weapon attacks aren't being literal; they're referring to the type of attacks made with the weapon, not the actual weapon type itself. A melee weapon attack isn't saying an attack made with a "melee weapon", it's saying a melee attack made with a weapon. A ranged weapon attack isn't saying an attack made with a "ranged weapon", it's saying a ranged attack made with a weapon. It's using the word "weapon" to restrict its use to weapons, not as a definitve classification, e.g., a ranged spell attack wouldn't benefit from a feat that granted a bonus to a ranged weapon attack.   Overall, it's really a matter of perspective. Personally, I try not be so literal with the wording in the books and use a little common sense; if someone throws something, it's not being used as a melee weapon, it is now a ranged weapon. I am actually a fairly strict DM, especially when it comes to rules interpretation, but I am not about to say, "Well, the book says it's a melee weapon, so it is never ranged... even when it is clearly being used in a ranged fashion." That's too defined, too strict and just plain nonsense. It just creates, as demonstrated by this question, too much controversy, inconsistency and discrepancy... and that is never good at a gametable.   Anyway, that's my two cents... Do with it what you will and happy gaming!   Nominrath
#3 TheCriticalFail Nov 11, 2014 0:47:36	Thank you very much for your thoughts! Unfortunately must have missed that section when we discussing it at the table. In that case I agree it probably fits better as a range weapon (which is what I was hoping for anyway, since being able to use archery and sharpshooter on it would be a lot more useful). Anyway, I suspect we'll use it in this vein for now since that definitely makes the most sense. Thank you very much for your help!
#4 lawrencehoy Nov 11, 2014 1:59:18	Nominrath wrote:
#5 paulstrait Nov 11, 2014 8:35:41	I agree with the other posters.  To summarize succinctly-- the issue is not whether something is a melee weapon or a ranged weapon, but whether an attack is a "ranged weapon attack" or a "melee weapon attack."  Note that these are terms of art in 5e that have sometimes counterintuitive applications, e.g., an unarmed strike is a "melee weapon attack," as is a beast's bite attack.  So, in the sharpshooter feat, when it says "your ranged weapon attacks ignore...", it is talking about ranged weapon attacks, not ranged weapons.   However, the feat also says "Before you make an attack with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with [sic], you can choose..." In this case, it seems to be referring to the weapon's status as a ranged weapon, rather than the attack.  I would probably treat this the same way as if it said "ranged weapon attack," but here an argument could be made from the RAW that it is different.  And as others have pointed out, the same is true for the archery fighting style (and here I would probably not allow this to be used for thrown weapons, because it is called 'archery,' though perhaps I would homebrew a 'thrown weapon fighting style').   Divine smite uses the phrase "melee weapon attack," so it cannot be used when throwing a weapon.   So, in short, when you are throwing a dagger, handaxe, spear, javelin, or trident, you are making a 'ranged weapon attack' with a 'melee weapon' (when you are throwing a net, you are making a 'ranged weapon attack' with a 'ranged weapon').
#6 Drycanth Nov 11, 2014 10:26:38	Dual wielder feat is not specific enough that it would work reguardless of how you view the issue.   After that it is up to the DM what he wants to allow.   Remeamber this edition is about rullings and not rules. The DM is supposed to make the call.       My suggestion is to present your concept and why you want him to allow it to play out a specific way. Most DM's will listen and if it is not going to break down how they want the game to run allow your idea. Don't look for a RAW way to force a DM to allow something. You just won't find it in this edition. The goal of this edition is to use DM adjudication like 1E did and move away from the hard coded rules of 3rd and 4th.
#7 TheCriticalFail Nov 11, 2014 12:26:45	Woah woah woah, I'm not trying to look for a RAW way to force a DM to do something. My ranger is a crossbow user. I was just looking over build concepts and raised the point at the table, after which I realised that none of us were really sure. As such I was just asking here to see what other people thought and how they were doing things.   I'm well aware to begin with that this edition is more about rulings. I'm just the type of person who's also interested in the rules and how people have interpreted them, especially in instances such as this one when I'm genuinely unsure. Anyway, thank you again for all the responses! Definitely interesting to hear the different points of view and definitely helping to clarify what a general consensus is.
#8 lawrencehoy Nov 11, 2014 23:07:10	TheCriticalFail wrote:
#9 ShinQuickMan Nov 12, 2014 13:18:14	Since we're talking about thrown weapons, what about nets and darts? Could they be used to make melee attacks? I ask this because I noticed that, unlike the other weapons listed under ranged weapons, they lack the "ammunition" tag, and without any other limitations, it makes it seem that their label as "ranged weapons" seems superfluous. I'm just wondering if that's the correct interpretation.
(Reply to #9) Timborama	ShinQuickMan wrote:
#11 MasterVelles Nov 18, 2014 12:53:10	When throwing a melee weapon it BECOMES a ranged weapon for that attack. It would benefit from Sharpshooter since Sharpshooter specifies "Ranged Weapon Attack"s when you throw a melee weapon you are making a Ranged Attack with a Weapon.