Hey gang, I have a question concerning thunder wave and it;s area of effect. Is the spell centered around the caster, radiating out in a 15 cube with the caster in the middle, or can the caster place the cube in front of himself? Maybe this is a situation where both examples are correct?
A cube's point of origin is not inside it, unless the caster wants it to be.
Novacat wrote:
You could, or you could position it adjacent to you.
Kentor_Slowhand_02 wrote:
Novacat wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
Novacat wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
Novacat wrote:
You can't be pushed away from yourself, but you would need to save against thunder damage.
Well, actually, now that I think about it, I'm not so sure. I think a DM could adopt either interpretation and still be on reasonable ground. That said, one other observation is that the spell's effect "expands in a straight line from the point of origin," so if the point of origin is on the bottom of the cube, it seems like it might push the targets up instead of out.
Novacat wrote:
I don't think there's any reason to assume that the area needs to extend outward from the caster's center of mass. The caster needs to be able to reach one side of the area, but not necessarily from the outside of that area. If you think of the spell's area of effect as a glass box, the caster could touch the glass from the inside, and it would still follow all the rules for cube-shaped spells.
The rules for cube areas of effect say that the point of origin (or creature of origin) lies on the "face" of the cube, which to me means the outer side of any line or plane comprising the cube (or square, for when height doesn't matter).
This doesn't matter for the vast majority of cube spells, because they originate from a "point," not a "creature" with area/volume. However, when the spell, such as thunderwave, does issue forth from a creature who occupies space, I would say that the "face" of the spell's area touches the "face" of the origin creature's space.*
If using a grid and only worried about 2-d combat, the caster can be standing on any of the 16 squares touching the 3x3 area of effect:
c c c c c c x x x c c x x x c c x x x c c c c c c
Where "x" is the area of thunderwave and "c" is the potential area of the caster.
*A separate rule is that the caster may choose to affect him- or herself with the thunderwave, as it originates from the caster.
TOO MUCH MATH MY BRAIN HURTS!
Novacat wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I was using a 2-d example to simplify the concept.
If you want to cast your thunderwave using 3 dimensions, using the "bottom" of the cube as your origin face, then it would probably not include any medium or smaller creatures on ground level.
The minimum starting point of the cube from the ground would necessarily be the caster's vertical space. Anything that was about the same height as the caster would probably not be "inside" the spell's area (or mostly inside of it) and thus not be affected.
Trying to get the cube at a low enough "height" to allow its use as a "burst" (4e term) would fall into the situation previously discussed where the caster is not on the "face" of the spell's cube, but rather inside of the cube. Thus, I would not allow it.
x x x x x x x x x OO c c c c c z OO
In this side-view or cutaway example, the caster can stand in any of the "c" squares and cast a vertial thunderwave. However, creatures that are not taller (bigger size) than the caster would not be affected. For example, a medium zombie ("z") would not be affected by this "vertical blast -> close burst" version of the spell. A large Ogre ("O"), however, is tall enough that he could have an entire "cube" of his volume inside the thunderwave cube and thus be affected by a "vertical blast -> close burst" spell.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Chameleon-X wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Novacat wrote:
Well, neither of those characterizations seem precisely correct to me.
Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
Yes, and my interpretation is the former: the caster's "cubic space" shares a face with the cube, from the outside, but the caster may choose to affect himself or herself. The caster may not choose to place the spell such that his or her "space" occupies the same "space" as the spell's cube.
Note that the rule about selecting the affected areas (volumes) does not say that the caster may "choose otherwise" to put the origin inside the cube - it simple speaks to the total "area of effect" - either a 15' cube or a 15' cube + the origin object/creature.
Thunderwave: "A wave of thunderous force sweeps out from you..."
So the OP's suggested use of the spell assumes it isn't going outward from you. He is actually trying to claim the spell can go inward towards you. The spell doesn't allow that though.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
First of all a caster might want to include themselves in the AoE to escape a Grapple, as specifically described on page 290 of the PH.
Secondly neither the AoE Cube description (page 204 of the PH), nor the spell description (page 282 of the PH) mention a 3D orientation of the cube. (Nor disallow orientation. Which with a "face of the cube" description would be expected.)
A mere 2 rotations (x & y) of said cube from the corner (of origin), to the far corner of the cube (z), allows a diamond-shaped AoE. (Or 25' in length.)
Regardless of whether the caster decides to include himself or herself in the area of a thunderwave, I'm not sure I would allow the spell to push the caster, as the spell effect pushes "the creature ... 10 feet away from you." It's not really possible to push something away from itself (as a whole), so I think a self-thunderwave would just end up doing thunder damage to the caster. Marginal utility at best.
E-Tallitnics wrote:
You select a cube’s point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube’s size is expressed as the length of each side. A cube’s point of origin is not included in the cube’s area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
15' cubes can be centered on a point just as easily as 10' or 20' cubes.
While in general, a (geometric) "point" can be placed "on" a face (which technically doesn't have any sides to put things "on", as it has no depth), if the "point of origin" is a voluminous creature or object, placing it "on a face" would mean that its boundary "almost" touches the face but does not intersect it. It also implies being "on" the bounded surface, meaning above or exterior to it.
If the spell were intended to be a "burst", it would be worded as a range, a sphere, or cylinder instead of a cube. If it were intended to be either, it would be listed as an option: either a 15' cube or all creatures within 5', for example.
If you want to see an example of a "burst" style spell, look at destructive wave. If you want to see another example of a "blast" style spell, look at burning hands.
Undrhil wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
Kentor_Slowhand_02 wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
Nope, new cube would need to be drawn from that body part. The cube can't originate from you and go outward while also including you. Can it?
paulstrait wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
At first, when I read that spell, I thought it was a cube where the caster was at the center (so in effect affecting all adjacent creatures within 5 feet of the caster). English not being my first language, I clearly misunderstood the words.
Now, I will probably rule it as a cube the caster must be adjacent to. I will be easier that way.
They should have made this spell a cone anyway ;)
Magic can often act in a weird way 
Plaguescarred wrote:
Unless you have something triggering upon being hit or taking thunder damage that you really want to use, i don't see any good reason to Thunderwave yourself.
interesting, when I first saw this spell used at GenCon, the caster was in the center of the 15 foot cube, and the force of the wave expanded from him in all directions:
X X X
X C X
X X X
with the Range listed as: Self (15-foot cube), and the spell description ("A wave of thunderous force sweeps out from you. Each creature in a 15-foot cube originating from you must make a Constitution saving throw), this seemed to make sense. My group has continued to use it like thi, as a way to knock back melee enemies that surround a caster, but this is not the case?
If not, then how would a spell be worded under range that has that effect under 5e, as this type of spell has been a staple for casters in previous editions?
It's still a staple. That graph is either a lenient DM allowing the caster to raise his hands up high and "shoot" it downward into a 15 ft. cube (which I would rule also includes the caster), or just a wrong(ish) way of doing it. Remember, it's a cube, not a sphere (look at the PHB's illustrations of where Points of Origin are, and where the spells "spread" from that. Your picture is a 5-ft radius sphere with a PoO at the caster)
My god we have been using thunderwave wrong. Was using it like this:
xxx
xcx
xxx
Plaguescarred wrote:
Sutekh1 wrote:
I don't have a problem with the caster being in the middle of it without taking damage and allow all of the following.
xxx xxx xxx
xcx xxx xxx
xxx xcx xxx
c
My Eldrich Knight loves using it to get enemy's off him when he gets himself surrounded (which is often). Probably isn't RAW but also hasn't proven to be OP yet.
The description of a cube spell says A cube's PoO is not included in the cube's AoE, unless you decide otherwise.
So, the player (I am assuming that's who the 'you' refers to) decides if he or she wants to be in the cube or not. The spell description says it sweeps out from you, so I think the spell allows all of the approaches above, too.
Which means my druid is a very happy chappy, now. This spell rocks even more than before. 
Why the heck does a burst of sound expand in a cube shape, anyway? That's such a weird thing for a spell's magic to do to sound waves. Especially since the radius of audibility is still a regular sphere, as the gods intended.
Fralex wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Fralex wrote:
No you cant cast it on yourself and get 360, easiest thing to imagine what thunderwave is, if you played skyrim, its basically unlrelenting force shout FUS RO DAH.
You put 15ft square(or cube if you play 3D) in front of you, and anyody inside is affected.
SOmething like burning hands, but instead of triangle, its a square
Novacat wrote:
Or, hear me out- it's just a magically created wave of loud booming noise, similar to the sheet of flame made by a burning hands spell, and the 15' cube is an abstraction used to create the desired amount of "effect" proportional to the "power budget" of the spell.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
So I was wrong about a few things.
You can hit yourself with thunderwave. Why? Because you are the point of origin and the rules say you can choose to include the point of origin or not.
On to the next point:
The cube rule says, "You select the cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect...."
Since I am the point of origin I must lie anywhere on the face of the cubic effect, which basically means that as long as I am touching a cubes face anywhere then my arrangement is legal.
However, thunderwave does have a more explicit rule about the force going outward from me. If I imagine myself inside the cube and touching a face then the thundewave would actually start off going inward toward me and then one past me it would go outward from me. As such I don't think being on an "inner-face" of the cube will work due to the outward from me portion of the spell.
3D. The spellcaster's feet are touching one of the cube's faces. The wave sweeps out from you in all 3 dimensions to the extent of the cube.
El_Condoro wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Look, clearly there's a lot of room for interpretation. I think the only really correct answer, then, is "ask your DM."
FWIW:
I asked "Q about Thunderwave -- can it affect all adjacent squares by casting from, say, the bottom of the cube (from the inside)?"
@pizzystrizzy The origin of a cube must be on a face of the cube. Cast upward, thunderwave could affect Large or larger targets next to you.
Suppose I drop prone and cast thunderwave directly upwards. Could it then affect medium or smaller creatures adjacent to me?
Lord_Kyrion wrote:
Lord_Kyrion wrote:
Lord_Kyrion wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
Even if a face could be on the inside the outward from you requirement of the spell would not let you cast thunderwave down from the top of your head since that would be casting it inward toward you.
paulstrait wrote:
FrogReaver wrote: