Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Jeddith Mar 14, 2015 10:35:09	Is a tiefling considered a fiend...for say using the "protection from good/evil" spell against him/her...or say the  ranger's  favored enemy "fiend" feature? ' the race description says a tiefling has an "infernal bloodline" but I'm not really sure what that means in game terms love some feedback here. thanks
#2 Kalani Mar 14, 2015 11:15:28	No, it is a humanoid which has descended from fiends or fiendish machinations. There isn't enough fiend left in it to be considered as such. To be a fiend, it would need to have the fiend type.
#3 Jeddith Mar 14, 2015 11:58:03	I guess you're right...even elves arn't "fey"according to the MM..they are humanoid "elf" (drow elves in the MM...I'm guessing high and wood elves would be the same). It does seem strange though...that tieflings supposedly don't have enough "fiend" left in them to be considered so, yet have access to thaumaturgy, hellish rebuke, fire resistance, and darkness...seems like they have quite a bit of fiend in them IMO. Maybe even more so ( in terms of racial magic "gifts") than a Cambion...which is indeed considered a "fiend".  anyway, I still think you're right..for game play, it makes sense to have them play as humanoids... still not sure if I'll house rule it or not. Maybe I'll have elves and gnomes  be "fey", genasi as "elemental", and tieflings should be "fiend" (and assimar celestial).
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 14, 2015 13:47:23	I've been using a similar ruling for warforged (which I consider to be constructs, despite the rules on them being hazy and implying they're humanoid; I view living constructs as, essentially, construct (humanoid).). They can be affected by things that specifically target humanoids or those that don't affect constructs, but they have advantage on the save. A similar ruling could extend to humanoid (fiend), humanoid (elemental), or humanoid (fey).
#5 Mechatarrasque Mar 14, 2015 20:05:17	Just for bookkeeping, I think WotC made the right decision to keep all PC races "humanoid."  If I never have to hear "does enlarge person work on a tiefling?" again in D&D, I will be a happy DM.   Additionally, the charops boards would melt down from all the "my druid conjured an elf wizard with conjure fey who conjured a genasi warlock with conjure elemental" shenanagins.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 14, 2015 21:28:12	Mechatarrasque wrote:
(Reply to #3) Glimjack	Jeddith wrote:
#8 cowleymen Mar 16, 2015 5:25:56	i thought anything human shaped should usually be held with Hold Person. or perhaps roll the hold spelld into one and let you cast it on different types or higher CR's
#9 Gwaithador Mar 22, 2015 17:30:25	Regarding elves, that's why they have the "fey ancestry" but, are technically not fey any longer, having long ago left the Feywild. Tieflings are similar in that regard.
#10 paulstrait Mar 22, 2015 17:53:38	cowleymen wrote:
#11 Marius_Stormhelm Oct 02, 2015 4:38:44	I'm not seeing why you wouldn't be able to target something with spells just because they happen to have some of the heritage in their blood. Example: A tiefling is clearly part fiend, the amount is not actually specified and based on the flavour from 5e they're infused with the essence of Asmodeus, Overlord of the Nine Hells. To me, that's not minor, however it doesn't mean the Tiefling benefits from being a full fiend. Instead they're humanoids, with a sub-class distinction of fiend. Instead they have infernal legacy, which clearly shows what they get from their fiendish heritage. So the way I see it, a paladin could sense them using Divine Sense, but would also recognize that the unique flavour of that aura is a tiefling since it isn't corrupted wholly by pure evil. This doesn't mean the Tiefling is a pure fiend or has a fiends template, just that things that detect fiends would pick up the traces of fiend (however much there is) in the Tiefling because those markers are undeniably there. Similarly, there is absolutely nothing which denotes that old ancestries are useless and defunct. Elves live for thousands of years, so whether they left the wilds a long time ago or not is completely irrelevant considering that it could be as little as five generations (for an elf's lifespan.) Tieflings are unique in that it's not a dilutive effect either, but rather similar to a curse which is passed on through generations regardless of breeding. The Asari in Mass Effect are the same in this regard, with any mating resulting in an Asari young. The Tieflings are the same, indicating very clearly that the magic which makes them fiendish is extremely powerful, especially since it can't be permanently altered without the use of level 9 spells like True Polymorph and Wish. Ultimately, and this is just personal opinion here, I find too many people eager to say no to things in D&D because they flat out ignore very simple logic. Humanoid means less than nothing. It means you have a vaguely ape-like shape. All of the giants are humanoids, although they are not classifed as such because giant is a type, yet the only real difference is size category. Each of the races has some unique background to it, and leaves a lot open to discussion. My personal favourites are the half-races, since everybody always assumes half human. However consider that you can have half-elves and half-orcs. This would lead to the conclusion that at the bare minimum, you can definitely have orc/elves. Also consider that races like Tieflings are derived from any humanoid and always bear Tiefling young. They're like the universal donor for babies. Just some food for thought.
#12 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 02, 2015 5:38:20	Marius_Stormhelm wrote:
#13 Grazel Oct 02, 2015 16:22:53	I don't recall any lore saying tiefling / human matings result in a tiefling for sure, or a tiefling / elf mating would result in a tiefling instead of a half-elf. It might make sense with the default lore of tieflings, but may not hold true in all campaign settings. Even 5e FR has a slightly different flavor in that tieflings always had some fiendish blood hence random traits but during the 4e/Spellplague era the entire race was forced into a more fiendish look because of a coven of tieflings working with Asmodeus to elevate him to godhood status.   This is not enough to mark them as a fiend, just as a human being cursed by a hag doesn't suddenly get flagged as evil, fiendish, or fey. A tiefling has no requirement to be evil which is a common trait of all fiends. Also elves don't register as fey and can't be summoned by various spells that apply to fey. The assumption is that bloodline traits and curses don't trigger a type match.   Types seem confusing because they're not a taxomical classification, they're a flag to determine how various game mechanics and spells work. Any beast in the MM can also be fey if it's found in the Feywild as indicated by the various summon/conjure animals spells which actually conjure or summon a fey version of a beast. Monstrosity is a flag for things that they didn't want affected by other flags like beast, humanoid, giant, etc. Some "monstrosity" creates are humanoid in shape but not all, and some beasts or humanoids are down right monstrous but not flagged as a monstrosity.
#14 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 02, 2015 20:15:02	Grazel wrote:
#15 Grazel Oct 03, 2015 19:38:02	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
#16 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 03, 2015 22:40:20	For the tieflings it's more a matter of degree.  They're not fiendish enough to be fiends, unlike the cambions, so they have to be humanoids, since having a single creature type as the only flag means they have to be one or the other.   Maybe you could have judged the fiendish blood to be too thin anyway, but there's no middle ground so it's not even an option.  I think the curse part would depend on the type of curse, since you have the fomorians who were cursed by the fey, but didn't become more like fey in the process. Monstrosity is a bit more than just a catch-all, since it handles creatures that aren't properly natural, but aren't as completely alien as an aberration.  Consider the minotaur as an example; it's approximately human-shaped, which would make it a humanoid (current standard lore has them originally created from humanoids), but it's bigger, which should make it a giant, but apparently a bit too far away from looking like a weird human, so they made it a monstrosity.   And giant itself is kind of a weird classification since "like X, but bigger" doesn't make much sense as creature type when you've already got size categories and can clearly have creatures (like the sahuagin baron) that are Large humanoids.
#17 Orethalion Oct 04, 2015 0:03:12	For me a Tiefling will never be anything more than they were in 2e when they first appeared.  They are simply someone who at some point in their ancestry acquired a hint of lower planar blood.  That creates a Tiefling, not a fiend.
#18 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 04, 2015 0:20:34	How much fiendish blood do you need before you count as a fiend?
#19 Imaculata Oct 04, 2015 0:38:08	I keep misreading the title of this thread.   Tiefling considered a friend?
#20 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 04, 2015 0:41:53	The ones I've seen seem to vary between the extremes of "not at all friendly" and "way too friendly".
#21 Orethalion Oct 04, 2015 8:23:07	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
#22 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 04, 2015 21:19:37	Orethalion wrote:
#23 Mad_Jack Oct 04, 2015 21:51:24	I don't think 5th has enough of a rule structure on the subject to adequately address the issue in that particular case.
#24 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 04, 2015 22:03:00	Mad_Jack wrote:
#25 Orethalion Oct 04, 2015 22:13:02	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
(Reply to #22) Mechatarrasque	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
#27 Marius_Stormhelm Oct 07, 2015 5:21:20	These are all excellent and very valid points. The main thing that's been the common thread here is that there's certainly no argument against a Teifling having at the bare minimum SOME degree of fiend in them. Due to this, an ability such as Divine Sense (which makes no mention of quantity) should be able to pick up a Tiefling, Cambion, Succubus, or any other type of fiend. It's simply a matter of degrees. I would like to make an argument against two things though: First: Tieflings always produce teiflings - this is actually part of the tiefling flavour in 5e. Since their blood itself is cursed by the essence of Asmodeus, any offspring is also cursed and thus inevitably ends up as a tiefling. The difference in races is presented by the type of tiefling produced, which accounts for the ones that vary in appearance and skin tone due to their underlying heritage which is no longer distinguishable.   Second: Regarding half-blooding - how do you quantify a curse? There's no mention of how powerful the curse is against Tieflings, only that it still holds strong and unlike a curse by some swamp hag, it clearly can't be dispelled. On top of that, the text with respect to Tieflings is very clear that they only appear humanoid in the broadest possible sense. The only thing they do not have in common with fiends is alignment, and to me personally, that one difference is minor with respect to all of the other similarities. After all, in 5e you can make a Chaotic Evil paladin if you like, so alignment is largely just a subjective thing.
#28 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 07, 2015 6:01:53	Marius_Stormhelm wrote: