Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 daedel Aug 26, 2014 12:09:17	Is it a prerequisite to have proficiency in a set of tools to use it? I am rollling a rogue and noticed the tools section only says that you add the proficiency bonus to pick locks and disarm traps, however, in the Working Together section of the book it's implied that picking a lock requires proficiency in the tools. This was also clear in the last playtesting package but cannot find it the player's handbook.
#2 Johris Aug 26, 2014 12:14:04	No, you do not need to have proficency to simply use the tools.  If you do have proficency, you get to add your bonus.
#3 NyteWalker Aug 26, 2014 12:17:37	Although, for crafting ,you must be proficient with the tools used for the craft. So Smith's Tools to make a sword, or Woodcarvers tools to fletch arrows, etc. Crafting is on page 187 of the PHB, for reference.
#4 daedel Aug 27, 2014 3:11:14	My problem relates specifically to thieves tools. In the description it doesn't say you need proficiency to use them, but in the Working Together section on skill checks, it says: "for example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves tools...". So apparently you need this to try this particular action (and probably to disarm traps too)   I twitted that to mike mearls and answered: @daedel nope, anyone can try. you might need the tools to attempt it, or you might attempt at disadvantage if the DM so rules" - But then I pointed out the Working Together example: @mikemearls Should I assume then that Working Together section is wrong and anyone can pick locks with thieves tools? - Got no answer on this yet, unfortunately.
#5 Plaguescarred1 Aug 27, 2014 6:35:39	Maybe Working Togheter contains older wording from when they intended tools proficiency in order to attempt a task.
(Reply to #5) daedel	Plaguescarred wrote:
(Reply to #4) NyteWalker	daedel wrote:
#8 Hailrobonia Aug 27, 2014 7:20:24	As a DM, I would rule that in order to assist someone with using thieves' tools, you would need to be proficient as well. In fact, I think having an untrained person assist you may give you disadvantage. "Try cutting the blue wire... will it help if I jiggle this? Let me bang on the lock while you do that thing you're doing. How about you cut the blue wire? Have you tried 1-2-3-4 as the combo? Or how about cutting the blue wire?"   Of course, if some players came up with a very reasonable way on how an untrained person could assist that was specific to the situation, I'd probably allow it. It would definitely have to be more than "I assist!"
#9 pedro2112 Sep 01, 2014 7:52:54	In the Starter Set, every single lock stated that you need proficiency in Theives Tools to open them. Perhaps in the DMG it will provide guidance as to when a lock is so mundane that one who is non-proficient in Theives Tools can use them to open said lock?
#10 miles2912 Sep 02, 2014 16:14:47	In the PHB under LOCK is says specifically that you need to have proficiency in thieves tols to open one.  Specific beats general.  So any locks that you come across you need to have proficiency in thieves tools.
#11 lawrencehoy Sep 03, 2014 22:02:28	pedro2112 wrote:
(Reply to #11) Lucas_Blackstone	The first line of the tools section covers this, in conjunction with the supporting statement on page 175 under working together, and the locks and manacles gear descriptions. Under "Tools" ( page 154 ) it says " A tool helps you to do something you couldn't otherwise do, such as craft or repair an item, forge a document, or pick a lock." So you need the tools to even try , as listed on page 154, and if you don't have proficiency, you can't try or try to help, as listed on 175. I don't see any conflict there but maybe I am misreading it somehow?
#13 Gungolphus Sep 04, 2014 5:16:30	In the absence of definitive wording, how about we use reason?   "Tools" in the game context are clearly specialized bits of kit without which an artisan cannot practice his trade. These tools are generally incomprehensible to the uninitiated. I am an artisan by trade (a brewmaster). Some of my specialized tools, which allow me to perform my tasks, look like nothing on earth, and are not easy to figure out. In my experience, each trade has such tools. For just one example, I know a few web developers, back-end dbase trolls. They have specialized toolsets, too. I've seen lockpicks. I wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do with them.   Moreover, each profession has their annoying dillettantes, who think they know stuff but don't. And when they "help" they tend to just get in the way.    All that said, as Lucas pointed out, the tool must allow the PC to "...do something you couldn't otherwise do[.]" So it's not a general thing, it's very specific.   Therefore, in my opinion, you must be proficient in the use of the tools in order to use them at all, and "assistance" by untrained PCs is more hindrance than help. I do allow untrained PCs to try - I allow the PCs to attempt anything they want - but the penalty for being untrained is much less than merely foregoing the proficiency bonus.  I kick the DC to the next higher category and make the attempt with disadvantage.   Of course, should errata come to light I'll change my tune. But for now that line of reasoning works for me.   Cheers,   Bob
#14 Plaguescarred1 Sep 04, 2014 5:37:17	While not explicitly stated in the thieve's tools themselves, it look like you need proficiency with them to pick a lock.
#15 lawrencehoy Sep 05, 2014 3:19:00	Plaguescarred wrote:
#16 Plaguescarred1 Sep 05, 2014 4:57:15	lawrencehoy wrote: