These have recently been topic of discussion. Didn't think they each deserved their own thread, but folks might want to know...
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557812617369378816
A player with multi attack readies an attack, do they get all attacks on the trigger or just one?
If you mean the Extra Attack feature, the extra attacks happen only on your turn.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557816150290366464
Ruling Needed. Pact of Tome grants other classes cantrips as warlock cantrips using warlock spellcasting ability?
The intent of Pact of the Tome is that the chosen cantrips become warlock spells with Cha. as the spellcasting ability.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557816721810403329
Timing of Shield Master bonus shove. Does "take attack action" mean make 1 or all att rolls 1st? or can shove then attack?
As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.
Discuss....
Extra Attack... I did *not* see that coming. I am partly wondering if he misunderstood; perhaps was thinking of AoO type attacks. It 'should' work with ready....I would have thought.
Shield Master.... This response gets me thinking that we are being *way* too concerned about the timing issues. He seems to consider this 'obvious'. I'm starting to think FoB is likewise able to come before or after....
Coredump00 wrote:
Shield master goes back to having a different view of how your turn works in 5E. It's less mechanically restricted than several previous editions where (for example) an action that interrupted your movement meant the movement was done.
I'm not surprised by the ruling and while I agree with it I doubt it will stop all arguments. Stating that a bonus action can happen any time during your turn unless otherwise specified seems clear to me.
Nothing really surprising in the answers given from what I can see.
Not only does Extra Attacks specify "on your turn", but it also requires you to take the Attack action. The Ready action is not the Attack action. The fact that both the Ready and Attack actions allow you to make an attack is irrelevant.
Attack =/= Attack Action.
An Opportunity attack is an attack which uses your reaction.
A Readied Attack is an attack which also uses your reaction.
TWF grants you an attack as a bonus action.
None of these examples (and more) use the Attack action specifically, and therefore will not trigger the Extra Attacks feature.
The word action is very important in the phrase. This is perhaps the single most annoying oversight I have with the 5E rules.... The fact that the various keywords and keyphrases are not clearly defined as such, either by quotation marks or formatting (bold/italic, etc).
It is for this reason that I always use emphasis to denote the relevant keyword or phrase.
Everything is exactly as I've always said.
Kalani wrote:
I can't say the rulings surprise me, either. But they are nice to have.
Kalani wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
What Noctaem said. I was referring to the bonus action specifically (not the trigger for said bonus action). If it helps, replace TWF with any other bonus action attack. It ammounts to the same for the purpose of my example.
paulstrait wrote:
The rules are written in plain english. However, even despite this - there are phrases and passages that are clearly defined, however - not in nice neat little passages. It requires several steps of parsing the rule and comparing the rule with other rules it makes offhand reference to.
The Ready action, is one such example - which I will demonstrate. For the purposes of this, I will list non-relevant text in blue itallics, while the relevant sections will be emp
Ready (phb p193)Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your reaction.[
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it.
Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the goblin steps next to me, I move away.”
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round.
When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time o f 1 action, and holding onto the spell’s magic requires concentration (explained in chapter 10). If your concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect. For example, if you are concentrating on the web spell and ready magic missile, your web spell ends, and if you take damage before you release magic missile with your reaction, your concentration might be broken.
Kalani wrote:
From what i understand, while you can ready the Attack action, it won't let you make Extra Attack or Two-Weapon Fighting bonus action attack when you use it as a reaction, unless you're on your turn. On the other hand, a monster or Ranger with Multiattack action can ready this action and use it at full potential as a reaction out of turn.
Plaguescarred4 wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Well it's great that people other than coredump understand what's going on 
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Ok so keep arguing by yourself then
Noctaem wrote:
I see your point, however you are slightly erroneous.... You are not readying the Attack action, you are readying the Attack reaction. There is a difference. Same with the quickened spell example you gave.... You are performing a Cast a Spell bonus action.
Extra Attacks requires you to not only take the Attack, but it has to be an Attack "action" specifically. Taking an Attack "bonus action" or an Attack "reaction" does not qualify, even if we ignore the fact that it also uses the phrase "on your turn". The action type is different, and has changed.
The Rogue's Cunning Action feature reinforces this concept, and goes so far as to state that the character can use a Dash or Dodge as a bonus action. This clearly indicates that the Dash and "action" are separate terms, as not all dashes are "actions" (some may be bonus actions, or reactions).
By extrapolation, we can assume that the terms Attack (not to be confused with the lower-case attack, which is a separate term), Cast a Spell, Disengage, and Help are all independant terms - and while each of them is usually performed via the action mechanic, such is not always the case. Specific beats general and all that.
FYI, for those who have stated that the "rules" do not state actions are only available on your turn - The Dev's have previously clarified this.
Actions and Bonus actions are only available on your turn. Reactions are 1/round, but can be taken on any creature's turn.
I understand what you are saying... and can even see a logic to it; if the rules were worded that way. But you keep making statements that are not in the rules.
Where in the rules does it say anything about an "attack reaction"
Where does it ever use the term 'the Attack'?
When the rules specifically say "you choose the action you will take", please show the rule that says they don't really mean action. Remember, this is being used in the section talking about actions.
Why would they use the term action, under the heading Actions, if they didn't really mean 'action'?
Please recheck Cunning Action, it explicitly says you can take the "Hide, Dash, or Disengage action". It does not say the 'Dash Bonus action'. You take the Dash action in the Bonus action 'slot'. Just like you take the Attack action in the Reaction 'slot'.
Attack, Dash, Hide, etc are the names of actions you can take. There is no 'attack reaction' or 'hide bonus action' etc.
The rules very explicitly call Attack, Dash, Hide, etc actions, they are listed under the heading Actions in Combat, and their descriptions often refer to them as an action.
You seem to be trying to create a difference between the Dash action when used as your (for lack of a given term) default action, vs your bonus action. But there is no difference in the rules. There is Dash action. Thats it. Sometimes you take the Dash action as a standard/default action, sometimes you take the Dash action as a bonus action, sometimes you take the Dash action as a Reaction. But it is always the Dash action as defined on p. 192.
Attack, Dash, Hide are not "usually performed via the action mechanic"... they *ARE* actions.... by definition, they are actions. You can take actions once per turn, and you can take some actions as a bonus action, and you can take some actions as reactions.... but they are all actions. There is no 'separating' them.
Kalani wrote:
You are getting way too hung up on the wording. 5E is not precise with its wording, and uses natural language. The only thing that matters is the resource you are using when performing the "action". Your choices are:
- Action
- Bonus Action
- Reaction
- Free Action
That's it. There is no "action as a reaction", or "action as a bonus action'. There is simply action, bonus action, reaction, or free action. What you do is also called an "action" but it is used in the same context as the difference between Attack action and attack. The former is always capitalized for starters (making it a proper noun), while the latter is simply a verb.
I wish they didn't do this however - as there are an awful lot of people who fail basic grammar (if the internet is anything to go by) - and even more people who are legitimately confused by their use of the same word for multiple terms.
How much easier would it have been if they had called it the Melee/Ranged action, and an attack or the Attack action and strike? No muss, no fuss, and certainly no confusion - and it still would have allowed them to use plain english. Failing that, couldn't they have at least used formatting to emphasize the various keywords (much like I do in my forum posts).
When you take the Attack action........ yeah, not seeing much of a problem here. Same word/page count, just a fraction more ink. Better yet, if they had called it the Attack Action (capitalizing both words). This is my single biggest pet peev about 5E (which only goes to show how much they got right this edition).
Kalani wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Actually "when you take the Attack action" refers specifically to the "Attack action", not just "Attack". Of course this doesn't actually make a difference to the arguement, since the Attack action is only normally taken by using your action rather than has to be.
Yunru is correct... Both words must be present.
The entire book is written using the following language.
- [action] [resource used] or alternatively..... you can use a [resource] to perform an [action]
For example:
- Shield Master:If you take the [Attack] [action] on your turn, you can use a [bonus action] to try to [shove] a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
-
Quickened Spell: When you [cast a spell] that has a casting time of [1 action], you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to [1 bonus action] for this casting.
-
Grappling: When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the [Attack] [action] to make a [special melee attack], a [grapple].
-
Extra Attack: Beginning at 5th level, you can [attack] twice, instead of once, whenever you take the [Attack] [action] on your turn.
-
Two Weapon Fighting: When you take the [Attack][action] and [attack] with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a [bonus action] to [attack] with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.
You must meet both the requirements - both the "action" type itself, and the resource used.
The Ready action is no exception to this format, as I will demonstrate below.
[Ready]Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the [Ready] [action] on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your [reaction]
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your [reaction]. Then, you choose the [action] you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to [move] up to your speed in response to it.
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your [reaction] right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one [reaction] per round.
Very very well said Kalani.
Formatting helps considerably. My biggest pet peev is that the dev's failed to format the text to emphasise keywords and phrases, especially in light of the fact they use the same word multiple times in the text (sometimes in the same passage), yet with different meanings.
- [Attack] vs. [attack] - the former is always capitalized, the latter isn't (usually, there might be the odd exception however).
The above terms could have easily been emphasised had the dev's used any of the following options:
- [Attack] and [strike]
- [Attack] and [attack] - the action type being written in boldface, while the "attack" being written in plain text
- [Melee/Ranged] and [attack]
etc.
- [action] vs. [action] - neither are capitalized, but mean different things.
The confusion between these two only seems to occur with the Ready action. As such, it could have easily been avoided by simply writing [action] in bold, while leaving [action] in plain text.
I am sure there are other examples, but those are the two most common - and both of which cause undue confusion.
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
You know, initially our table ruled that the if you readied an attack it would be a single attack (much like an opportunity attack). In retrospect however we have changed our minds.
In my mind it would seem that the intent of Ready is to allow a character to perform any action that they could normally do on their turn, at a different point during the round. The character has also "paid a penalty" in that they can now only perform their action should their specified trigger occur (if it doesn't they have sort of "wasted" their action). So I don't see why that wouldn't include any action that they could do, whether it's a druid using Wild Shape, a cleric using Channel Divinity, or the fighter using Extra Attack; each of these characters should get the full benefit of their action (especially since they "paid" for it with the trigger limitation).
Anyway, just my thoughts...
@Coredump
Wow lots of things wrong with what you just said. I'll just touch on one:
I wish they didn't do this however - as there are an awful lot of people who fail basic grammar (if the internet is anything to go by) - and even more people who are legitimately confused by their use of the same word for multiple terms.
Kalani wrote:
Your Turn (phb p189)On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action.
RenoGM wrote:
RenoGM wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Even if they ommitted the text "on your turn" - Extra Attacks specifically requires the Attack [action]. Readying an attack is not the same as taking the Attack [action] as you took the Ready [action].
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
No I am not... Please reread what I said..... When you attempt to Hide using your [action], you are performing a Hide [action]. If you attempt to hide using a bonus action, such as via the cunning action feature - you are performing a hide [bonus action]. The Dev's are very clear on this, and have stated as such on numerous ocassions. I am simply over-emphasising it for clarity, but it is still the case.
Cunning ActionStarting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can b e used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action.
Forgot about Extra Attack specifically stating "On your turn".
Is the intent more along the lines of:
- Your one Action for your turn (and for the round) is Ready.
- Since you took Ready as you one Action, you may not perform another Action during the round.
- When the conditions of your trigger manifest you may do "something" (perform the action, lowercase "a") in response.
Just trying to wrap my aging brain around the discussion.
Attack action is used three ways in the rules.
By itself
Allowing a bonus action
With the 'on your turn' restriction.
By your claims, the 'by your turn' restriction is superflous...so why did they use it so often? And so consistently. It is used in *every* instance allowing Extra Attack, or Thirsting Blade, etc. It is also used in other occasions when they wanted to restrict it to your turn. Yet you say it is a complete waste.
They *never* use it when the Attack action gives a bonus action.... why not? If they are being superflous, why stop? Because 'bonus actions' already restrict it to your turn, so they don't need a 'on your turn' restriction.
It is by itself for Shove, Grapple, and Flaming Fists or whatever. So according to you, those can't be used as a readied action.
Your assertion leads to a lot of superflous rules and inconsistent editing. My assertion.... it all makes sense, and the rules work as written.
RenoGM wrote:
RenoGM wrote:
RenoGM wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
These all still work
For example:
- Shield Master:If you take the [Attack action] on your turn, you can use a [bonus action] to try to [shove] a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
Quickened Spell: When you [cast a spell] that has a casting time of [1 action], you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to [1 bonus action] for this casting.
Grappling: When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the [Attack action] to make a [special melee attack], a [grapple].
Extra Attack: Beginning at 5th level, you can [attack] twice, instead of once, whenever you take the [Attack action] on your turn.
Two Weapon Fighting: When you take the [Attack action] and [attack] with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a [bonus action] to [attack] with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.
You must meet both the requirements - both the "action" type itself, and the resource used.
The Ready action is no exception to this format, as I will demonstrate below.
[Ready]Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the [Ready action] on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your [reaction]
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your [reaction]. Then, you choose the [action] you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to [move] up to your speed in response to it.
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your [reaction] right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one [reaction] per round.
Kalani wrote:
I have. And it runs into problems with the following:
When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the player’s D&D basic rules and the Player’s Handbook.
Kalani wrote:
In looking at both sides of this I think as a DM I would just have to keep things a little more "fast and loose".
In other words when a player uses the Ready action simply tell me a trigger and what you're going to do. Forgot about "Actions", just tell me what you intend and I'll let you know if that's cool. I guess that might not work at every table but it will at mine.
Coredump00 wrote:
Kalani wrote:
RenoGM wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Someone should tweet the dev's and clear up any/all confusion surrounding this once and for all. Something to the effect of the following should be sufficient. I don't use twitter, or I would ask the question myself (not that I think it needs asking mind you).
- Are actions a resource? The Ready action states that it allows you to ready an "action". Is the same thing as readying an "Attack action" for example (not to be confused with readying an attack)?
Kalani wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
durntaur wrote:
I missed that entry in the index. You are 100% correct.
Index, p313
- attack, 14, 193-196
- Attack action. See under action
Note how one is capitalized and one is not. Also note that the phrase "Attack action" is a complete term. This indicates that the phrase is exacting in its requirements. Each time you see the phrase "Attack action" it refers to that specific action.
The same is true for several other types of action (with the exception of spellcasting, which directs you to page 201), for example:
- Hide action, see under action (phb p314)
- Use an Object, see under action (phb p316)
Which for completeness, is found here:
Index, p313
- action, 189, 192-193
- Attack action, 192
- cast a spell. See casting a spell:
- casting time
- Dash action, 192
- Disengage action, 192
- Dodge action, 192
- Help action, 192
- Hide action, 192
- improvising, 193
- Ready action, 193
- Search action, 193
- Use an Object action, 193
Kalani wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Apology accepted. I am not the kind of person to hold grudges, esp on an online forum.
I am afk now on my cell so I won't be able to look up the rules for the next 1 1/2 hrs approx
Kalani wrote:
Yunru wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Yes Coredump, anyone who disagrees with you is doing so because of "bias". Not because you're obviously incorrect in your statements, proven by all the work Kalani has done and by direct rules text which is being provided and pages numbered. But you know, that must be because of your own bias or whatever
My position is based on comments the dev's have stated. Both in rulings and in articles during the playtest of which I participated for the better part of 2years.
It is also based on the only possible interpretation of the rules that aligns with the RAW and dev rulings.
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Look. I have stated previously that I agree with you in principle and were it not for the fact it contradicts numerous rulings and/or causes unintended responses.
My position is not only based on RAW. It is also based on RAI. I cannot cite RAW in support of the RAI except where they both agree. When RAI and RAW are in conflict - I went with RAI.
This is how it was intended to work. All I have done is codify the language
There is at least one (or more) tweets which specifically state that x action is not y action and will not trigger z. I am done with this discussion though so I will leave it for someone else to track down said tweets
Noctaem wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Kalani wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Multiattack, as a feature, is not like Cunning Action. From my reading of it, I would say that it is an addendum to the types of actions one can take in combat (Actions in Combat, PHB p.192); its verbiage is most similar to the actions found in that section, lacking any specific reference to an Attack action. It is, therefore, an action unto itself.
EDIT:
SilentSin wrote:
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Multiattack also specifies that it must be taken on the creature's turn.
durntaur wrote:
Kalani wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
FYI, I am female. The preferred pronoun is "she" lol
Kalani *still* hasn't said why her extrapolations and interpretations of RAI are even necessary....
SilentSin wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
It's cool. I'm not offended. RPGs are still a male-dominated industry after all, although the numbers of female participants are quickly on the rise.... At my FLGS, approximately 1/4 players for our Wednsday night Encounters is female - there are three female gamers alone at my table (including myself), out of eight total.
A few short years ago, you would have been lucky to see 1/10 instead.
SilentSin wrote:
randl wrote:
Kalani wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
randl wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
randl wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
randl wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
randl wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
I was referring to Multiattack as defined for the Ranger Archetype, Hunter (PHB, p. 93). Volley and Whirlwind Attack are both defined in a fashion similar to the actions defined in Actions in Combat, containing no "on your turn" restriction. To this end, they are actions that could be Read[ied].
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
durntaur wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
durntaur wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
durntaur wrote:
● You cannot use Extra Attack with a readied action.
● Readied actions can occur on your turn.
● Therefore "On your turn" is not the relevent restriction.
● The only other restriction is you must use the Attack action.
● Therefore a readied attack does not use the Attack action.
Yunru wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Miladoon wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Yunru wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
I was editing my post while you posted the above. Please look at it again. Furthermore Kalani provided that quote and others previously I believe so I don't see why you can't just go read her posts like you should have to begin with.
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
So, a lot of what is being discussed in this thread seems to me to be sort of metaphysical, in the sense of not making an actual difference in play. I gather that there are a few things that are resolved differently based on which position one takes, like whether one can ready a multiattack if they have a class or racial ability called multiattack. Could somebody make a list of the actual practical differences between the two positions? Like, besides whether or not you can ready a multiattack (assuming I'm right that this is something that would be resolved differently depending on which position you take), what else would be resolved differently depending on one's view of what an action is or whatever?
paulstrait wrote:
As I said previously - this was worded clearer in the playtest materials and the difference between action, bonus action and reaction were clearly spelled out. I am sorely regretting the fact that I deleted 8 separate playtest packets from a 1 1/2 year period as it would have helped reinforce the intent.
If anyone still has the playtest packets please could you quote the relevant sections. I am fairly certain the NDA we had to sign digitally no longer has any meaning at this point now that the game is out.
Kalani wrote:
So -- the only practical difference between these two views is that if you ready an attack, and then the trigger happens on one's turn, the player either gets or doesn't get extra attacks?
That seems like a situation that would be quite rare. Is there any other scenario in which the differing view would matter?
paulstrait wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
More critically, there's this point of contention of page 2:
Kalani wrote:
ShinQuickMan wrote:
The Grapple/Shove rules only allow for performing a grapple or shove when you use the Attack action.
The rules under Ready says you can ready an action. Kalani et al posit that doesn't mean you can ready the Attack action. So according to them, you can't ready an Attack action, thus you can' t Ready and Grapple or Shove (or use the Monk Fangs of the Fire Snake)
Now, they say you can ready an action to attack, but you can't ready an attack action.... thus you can attack, but can't grapple.
It looks like you also could not ready the Help action, or Dodge action, or.... well not sure what else, since they assert that there is a difference in the rules between the word action and the word action. But I'm not totally sure how they make that determination. They have said that sometimes the term "Hide action" means one thing, and other times "Hide action" means something very different. But again, can't be sure how to tell the difference.
paulstrait wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Here's your view: There are actions and that is final, some abilities let you use actions as your reaction or bonus action, but they are still actions.
Vs: There are actions (general term) you can take. Normally this requires you to spend your action (specific term).
paulstrait wrote:
Yunru wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
This is really not that complicated guys.
The rules give you actions that you can take. It then gives you ways to use those actions.
The Ready action is simply allowing you to use your reaction in order to use whatever action you readied. It is no different that the Sorcerer's Quicken Spell metamagic, which allows the Sorcerer to use his bonus action in order to use whatever 1 action spell he wants.
The rules do not tell you that you can use those actions "whenever" because you cannot. You can only use actions on your turn. However, there are (specific vs. general) game elements which allow you to ignore that and use an action on someone else's turn, such as using the Ready action.
You are, in effect, using your reaction to gain an action, which you then spend to take whatever action you wanted to use.
Undrhil wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Also is it just me or does "action" look really wierd when bold?
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
randl wrote:
Miladoon wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Miladoon wrote:
You just added another way for me to taunt my players.
Yunru wrote:
Granted this is off-topic, but...
The way I read it, Actions in Combat was not written Actions only Allowed in Combat.
I would assume you could 'Help' someone to look for something, or to climb a wall, etc
Likewise, I don't think Hiding is restricted to a combat situation
etc
I'm with PaulStrait here ... what's the issue that's gone on for 6 pages?
As far as readying outside of combat, it's not an issue. Outside of combat you aren't normally taking turns, you can only ready an action on your turn (page 72 basic rules).
Actions are not limited to turns in combat. A player can declare an intention to take a turn outside of combat to get an action.
"The players don't need to take turns, but the DM listens to every player and decides how to resolve those actions.", pg 3, How to Play, BasicPDF.
It supports SilentSin's response
"I think disallowing actions out of combat is a good idea. If someone wants to use an action, you just pretend you're in combat. Most of the time there's no need to actually roll initiative and track turns and actions, but in any case where it is important, you run it with turns and rounds like combat. That leads to the most consistent application of the rules."
Can a spellcaster use a reaction to cast Shield if they trigger a poison dart trap? It is a ranged attack out of combat. According to the Shield spell, you take 1 reaction, which you get when you are hit...
Or will they use the Ready action to cast Shield in case they walk across the floor and trigger a trap that uses an attack to hit? Some might say no, because you don't have reaction, turns, and rounds outside of combat.
Sometimes the debate has no clear wrong or right. You just have to go with the BEST option.
SilentSin wrote:
Yunru wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Miladoon wrote:
Actions readied on your turn are merely delayed until the trigger occurs, they aren't transmuted into some other form of themselves.
This means you can use a readied Attack action to grapple a goblin who runs past you. If the rules somehow said you couldn't do something like that, you'd have an obligation to change them because that's a silly limitation that has no place in the game.
Now, you can still decide to champion pedantry and insist that your disenchanting interpretation is somehow more authoritative, but honestly... who cares? My game won't suffer from it.
Coredump00 wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
Because "attack" and "Attack" are still different.
A readied "Attack" can benefit from, say, Extra Attack if it's on your turn.
A readied "attack" cannot any more than a BAA could.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
"Attack" (capital A) is the name of an specific action, "attack" is the name of generically attacking.
For instance: Crossbow Expert lets you make an attack with your bonus action. You don't get Extra Attack because it's not an Attack.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Kalani wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
lol yes exactly thank you Durntaur. It's like us using the text of the rulebook is some forbidden thing. You posted without an incling of what you were talking about OoftaMeg, you even accused someone of inventing things to suit their argument. Little did you know of course, that these terms are all over the PHB and that you were simply completely wrong. In fact I think you owe Yunru an appology considering that you should have just read the thread and would have known about this before hand. This was covered over multiple pages, so you clearly just didn't read.
Noctaem wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Tell you what. Maybe we're just lost in rhetoric. My stand is pretty simple and is based on the basic rules starting on page 69.
I look at the combat section (and without going into lines and line of text) during your turn you can move, take an action, possibly take a bonus action if you have a feature that allows one. You can also do some minor flourishes (draw a weapon, speak, etc).
Actions are listed as attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, help, hide, ready, search, use an object, improvised action.
You can ready any of those actions (well, except I suppose, the ready action because that logically doesn't make any sense).
Some classes features are limited to your turn such as multiple attacks In addition you can only take bonus actions on your turn.
Simple to explain, doesn't require references to an index or paying attention to capitalization, doesn't require an interpretation of the PHB as if it were a legal document.
OoftaMeg wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
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durntaur wrote:
Furthermore, the dev's have said many times that 5E was written using plain english. As such, basic English Grammar is of relevance, including the use of proper nouns (i.e capitalized terms). I swear some people would fail grade 3 grammar.
An attack is not the same thing as an Attack. The former is a verb and/or noun (depending on context), while the latter is a proper noun (a name, place, defined term, etc).
In addition, the term Attack action is defined in the index, and can be considered part of the 5E lexicon. Whenever both of those words are found side by side in that specific order, you are speaking to that specific defined term.
Admittedly, they should have listed it as Attack Action if they were being 100% correct in their grammar, but still.
Kalani wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Kalani wrote:
OoftaMeg, perhaps the plainest example of why the difference is important is the opportunity attack. It permits a player to "use your reaction to make one melee attack", not an Attack action.
Thought experiment:
- A L6 valor bard uses dissonant whispers on a creature who fails the save.
- Creature uses its own movement to move out of reach of the bard, provoking an opportunity attack.
- The bard uses its reaction (it can because it's 5e, not 4e) "to make one melee attack".
Does the bard get its Extra Attack?
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
durntaur wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
I'm pretty sure it was posted earlier in the thread by Kalani since she researched this stuff:
http://community.wizards.com/comment/51758246#comment-51758246
If that's not it then you're going to have to search the thread a bit, I'm at work and can't spend the time required right now.
It's not stated that playtest materials are sources equal to the PHB. I didn't say that either to be fair. But it does give us an idea of intent and what the RAW looked like during the playtest.
As for the rule of cool, yes I agree 100%. How I DM or how you DM or how our DM's rule on these things isn't what's being discussed though. That's a clear distinction that has to be made. We're not talking about that, we're talking about the PHB and how game elements work and interact as per that book. Not how we would make it work at our tables.
For a debate that has been shown to be about nothing, people are getting awfuly nasty. Dial it down a bit.
Kalani wrote:
There are two basic options for this topic that I see. I'm using grapple as a simple example, there are probably others.
A) You can grapple as a readied action. It doesn't really matter whether or not you think there's a difference between "Attack" and "attack" because it has no impact on how the game is played.
B) You can't grapple as a readied action. In order to justify this you have to point to capitalization, indexes and a detailed explanation of an interpretation of your ruling of why "attack" is different than "Attack". You have to look up the text on grapple and point out that it's "attack" not "Attack". Since there is no sentence in the book that states "When we capitalize Attack it's because..." in my experience most people would look at you and just ask WTF you are talking about.
Option B would fit right at home in other editions of D&D/Pathfinder. In my opinion, it's exactly the type of thing they were trying to avoid with 5E so I choose option A. It's cleaner, easier to understand, easier to enforce.
[EDIT] Changed "Action" and "action" to "Attack" and "attack" since those are the specific terms for the example.
OoftaMeg wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
FYI -- https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/560244230967160832
@mikemearls Can a PC ready a grapple attempt? Normally it requires the Attack Action, but the limit on what can be readied is unclear.
@pizzystrizzy Yes, you can ready a grapple. Unless otherwise stated, you can ready any (non-bonus) action.
durntaur wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
No one is really arguing that the Attack action and attacking are not distinct.
paulstrait wrote:
durntaur wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
durntaur wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
The ruling at our table is simple; you can ready whatever action you like. As I see it the Ready action is simply allowing the player to do something they could otherwise do on their own turn, but on some other turn. They "pay" for this percieved "advantage" by placing a condition on it. A condition I might add, that may not come to pass resulting in the character losing out on performing the action. As a DM I've got no problem with this. The character didn't get "more actions" than anyone else. The character's action doesn't become "better" because they readied; although it may have become more useful but not mechanically "better". And the player has to tell me the trigger and more often then not I can decide if something happens to initiate the trigger. From a game-balance/fairness/fun perspective, it's all good.
Noctaem wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
I'm so glad I no longer play D&D a certain way, nor with certain kinds of people...
Kalani wrote:
You are missing the point.
Extra Attack is triggered by the Attack action specifically. It would not trigger on an attack, unless that attack was made as part of the aforementioned Attack action. There are other examples that do not involve Extra Attack, but they are more obscure [read: less well known], and I cannot be bothered searching for them just to prove a point.
This has nothing to do with my opinion. It is a fact of the game. The capitalization always occurs when the phrase Attack action appears. I do not recall reading a single instance in the books where this was not so, therefore - it is deliberate, and not a typo.
The fact that a large percentage of people miss this particular detail is due to them either being lazy readers, only half-reading the text and making assumptions, or are terrible at grammar, pattern recognition and/or correlation. Which are you?
Again I point out that it requires elementary school level comprehension of English to understand what a proper noun is and how it differs from a regular noun, and/or verb.
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
durntaur wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
As we've already explained, you're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with what's written plain as day in the PHB. I don't care how you rule at your table. What I care about is when you say that the two well defined terms aren't different at all. Which we then post a bunch of examples of WHY it's different, which you then victimize yourself and claim we're harming your opinion. No, we don't care about your opinion, all we care about is that you stop spreading the misinformation that these terms aren't different. They are, and we've submitted many examples of WHY they're different and HOW they're different. So as Kalani said:
Kalani wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
durntaur wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
How about everyone spend an hour pretending this thread doesn't exist, then see if you still have any motivation to post here?
durntaur wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
durntaur wrote:
durntaur wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
durntaur wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
durntaur wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
As far as the argument over whether Actions are only on your turn, I specifically stated I was bowing out of that argument several pages ago, and have not commented on it since. I am still following the thread however, and as stated previously - responding to other tangents in the same thread.
Currently, that tangent happened to be the distinction between Attack action and attack.
I am waiting for the official response from Jeremy (the rules guy). Until that time though, I have nothing further to add on that point. It really doesn't matter to me one way or another how the original topic is resolved.
If I was wrong, I will concede the point. If I was right, there is nothing to gloat about. Either way it will help clarify the rules so that we all have a much clearer understanding and to me that is the most important part - clarity of understanding. I couldn't care less whether I was right or wrong, I just want to know which way it should be ruled..... If the official answer is "it's ambiguous, ask your DM" - that too would be an answer, but unfortunately, not the one I would most appreciate.
lawrencehoy wrote:
I am not sure whether u can ready a grapple or shove by a strict reading of the rules. Mikes tweet is far from authoritive IMO as he is frequently wrong.
With that being said - I would personally rule in favor of readying a grapple/shove regardless. The only time I would disallow it is during OP and only if I am correct in my original assertion.
Kalani wrote:
It's like a bunch of people arrived at a restaraunt to have dinner together, only to argue over the routes they each chose to take.
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Kalani wrote:
durntaur wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Kalani wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Kalani wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Plaguescarred4 wrote:
Plaguescarred4 wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
1eejit wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
durntaur wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
What I do not like is the implications of limiters on abilities extra attack, where spells can be readied. You have the masters of combat via martial ability have artificial limiters in place, when casters do not suffer such restrictions. The impression that spells are trivial to cast or ready in combat with the intricacy of spells componenets, etc. while a martial class can not make extra attacks except for their turn is hard to believe.
Uchawi wrote:
Uchawi wrote:
"If you choose not to cast the spell when the conditions occur, or if the stipulated conditions never occur, you can simply "break concentration" voluntarily without losing your spell slot." (emphasis mine)
Isn't the spell slot used as soon as you cast the spell?
DemoMonkey wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
I would have preferred they implemented the concept of delayed action, which is simply changing your order in initiative. That would have been simpler than readied, and all the inconsistencies it creates.
Noctaem wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
Uchawi wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Because the spellcaster began casting his spell when he declared Ready action, and is holding the energy for the trigger. The spell slot is wasted as if he cast it if the trigger does not go off.
durntaur wrote:
After writing the text above I re-read Extra Attack, and the thing that I got wrong is not so much the "on your turn" part but the "whenever you take the Attack action" part. A character only gets one action per turn - in this case Ready or Attack, not both. Therefore, the Extra Attack feature cannot be used as a reaction, which is what the Ready trigger provokes, nor can a character take the Ready action and the Attack action (which is required for Extra Attack). Different paths, same destination - no Extra Attack on a readied action.
Nevvur wrote:
EDIT: I was wrong, please ignore.
Noctaem wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
The only text I can find on a readied spell, from Page 72 of the basic rules.
When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the spell’s magic requires concentration (explained in chapter 10). If your concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect. For example, if you are concentrating on the web spell and ready magic missile, your web spell ends, and if you take damage before you release magic missile with your reaction, your concentration might be broken.
Which to me means that you have cast the spell (and used your spell casting slot) even if the trigger never occurs.
It's not 100% clear, so I suppose your DM could rule that you can just release it your next turn or "reabsorb" the spell energy or some such.
OoftaMeg wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Correction: This post is a correction of an earlier post which caused confusion. The erroneous passage in the offending post now reads the following:
- If you choose not to cast the spell when the conditions occur, your concentration is broken, or if the stipulated conditions never occur, your spell slot is wasted.
OOOoh ok. I get it now. thanks for clarifying that Kalani
Ha, well let's follow your good example then. My bad Nevvur, sorry for making a misinformed statement in response to yours. I'll edit my post.
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Under Spell Slots in the PHB.
When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a slot of that spell's level or higher
C'mon, guys! Can't we all just get ...
Wait a minute ...
You guys are all ... agreeing with each other? And actually admitting to being wrong?
Am I on communities.bizzarowizards.com or something? :P
THIS ISN"T THE INTERNET I KNOW!
lolol... That comment is worthy of putting in your sig Underhil.
Bait-hammer wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
If you have the link, it would be useful, but MM may not be as 'authoritative' on rules as JC. In any case, I don't see how Ready and Attack can be used in one action - they are both their own action. An attack can be readied by Ready as a reaction, but that's not the same as saying Ready and a (full) Attack action can occur as the same action - it's one or the other.
El_Condoro wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Since we are talking about warlocks their needs badly to be added two invocations 1# blade pact only invocation that allows them to wear median armor since they are melee combat and 2# blade pact only invocation allowing them to use there charisma for attacks and damage. I was at winter fantasy and I saw a lot of people playing blade pact warlocks but they all wanted to use heavy weapons so the all had to sacrifice there dex or cha to get strength. That's crap because if play only with faness weapons then your able to maximize focus and not spread out your ability scores. It is unfair to people who would like use other weapons for there character and they are made to suffer.
Nozareem wrote:
I just read 9 pages of one poster who clealry cannot use inferencing skills, independently defined labels, or intuition troll very intelligent, grammatically correct, scholarly posters.
My heart hurts.
Props to Kalani for the color coding of actions and using a very clear system that I intend on using to help my players learn my interpretation of the rules grammatically.
#teacherlife
ivstin wrote: