With the use of the Sorcerer's metamagic feature, Twinned Spell reads as follows:
"When you cast a spell that targets only one creatuer and doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip)."
With Witch Bolt's repeating damage rolls, would this allow multiple damage drops on opponents, or just on the initial attack?
Sounds abotu right
I would rule that if you twinned the initial cast of Witch Bolt, you would have to spend the Sorcery points each time you deal the auto-damage in order to get both of the twinned targets. If you don't have enough Sorcery points to do that, then you would pick one and that one would get the damage as per the non-twinned spell.
I'd say just on the initial attack - however, it seems to be a hole in the rules.
Well, if a Sorcerer had Twinned a Concentration spell such as Hold Person or even Haste, I would say that the spell lasts on both targets for the entire time you maintained Concentration. I don't see why Witch Bolt would be so different, just because it deals damage. I would say that's working as intended, instead of a hole of some kind.
Backlash3906 wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
frothsof wrote:
frothsof wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, using a sorcery point is no different than using another resource to improve a spell. If a player can use a 2nd level spell slot to double the damage of Witch Bolt, I don't see why they couldn't use a sorcery point to add a 2nd target, considering they have to keep concentration anyway.
Besides it's a double-edged sword. If an enemy NPCs see a sorcerer channelling lightning at multiple allies, it's pretty reasonable to think they will consider him a big threat to take out quickly.
reddaemon wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
Oh ok yeah allright I agree then! I dont have phb in australia yet, cant see the nitty gritty. They should have called that metmadic Twin Target instead of Twin Spell! That combo is very good for sorcerors, good, they need a boost.
Twinned concentration... i dont know.
Twinned buffs really seem to be fun. Or cheap twinned cantrips.
But twinned concentration? Im good with that, but if theres multiple broken combos (i.e. a twinned spell that creates impossible to win scenerios or infinite loops) then better than houseruling spell by spell is just banning concentration twinning.
I think that by the spirit of the rules, it shouldnt work. But RAW says yes.
Does anyone at wizards write these questions down and have any plans of timely feedback?
I think a Twinned concentration spell is just fine - some concentration spells such as bless or etherealness already have a way to affect multiple creatures with one spell.
I also think Twinning a damage-over-time (or repeating damage) spell is fine. I don't have a PHB, but I assume the spell is appropriately balanced for its spell slot and the Twin Spell ability is balanced in its point cost for replicating damage spells. Therefore, replicating a continuing damage spell should be okay.
I think the bigger problem addressed with concentration buffs is multiple different buffs from one character - "I cast haste on the fighter, now I cast magic weapon, now I cast improved invisibility," etc.
Even haste has a commensurate disadvantage if Twinned- multiple characters lose their next turn if the sorceror is interrupted.
The biggest problem with witch bolt is that the range is 30ft....and if the target "is ever outside the spells range or if it has total cover from you" the spell ends. So unless your right next to them when you cast, most things can move out of range after the initial damage(assuming they are smart enough to know that moving away is a good thing). Also as a DM you could rule it that since its still only 1 spell, that both lines of lightning end if either of them move out of range(this is where the spell sniper feat comes in handy)
Concentration rules say you can only concentrate on one spell at a time. Twinned allows you to hit two targets with the same one spell. Ergo, you can maintain concentration on the two targets since it's all the same one cast spell.
Remember that Twinned can get costly when dealing with higher level spells (or spells cast as higher level slots) and that sorcery points are finite.
you can only concentrate on 1 spell or effect per round
page 80 basic rules
Casting another spell that requires concentration.
You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another
spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate
on two spells at once.
Also the ongoing damage is just 1d12 regardless of level its cast at which may tone back some of the excitement ppl seem to have about it lol.
Keen_Man wrote:
you twin the SPELL. so the entire SPELL is twin, even if the spell got multiple effect, is a continious spell, etc...
If you twin melf acid arrow (multiclass sorcerer/wizard) then 2 creature will receive the acid damage and the on going acid damage on subsequent turn. Each creature get a separete saev, and if one succeed, the other might still be affected
same with if you twin Invisibility, as long that you concenttrate 2 targets are invisible. If you twin HASTE, as long you concentrate, both target are hasted.
If you twin enlarge/reduce, then you can enlarge a friend and reduce an ennemy for as long that you concentrate.
If you Twin Ability enhancement, you can give strenght bonus to the barbariam and dex bonus to the rogue.
If you twin contagion (druid/bard - sorcerer multiclass) then 2 creatures get contagion, and they could get infected by different disease (one get slimy doom and the other get firemind)
For me the question isn't if you can keep concentrating to keep both versions of the spell going, but rather it says you can use your action to cause 1d12 damage to teh target on subsiquent turns. Does one action do extra damage to both targets, or do you choose with each action which one takes the extra damage?
I'm really not sure what the big deal is. Not only does it not seem OP.... it seems like the exact kind of thing a Warlock/Sorcerer should do.
grendel111111 wrote:
Assuming witchbolt can be twinned: that means it's a single concentration spell. It ends if the target goes out of range. If a single one of your two targets goes out of range will the whole spell end? By RAW I tend to think it would.
However, there's another way I can read it that it would last on both targets as long as BOTH didn't move out of range. I don't think that reading is more true to RAW though.
FrogReaver wrote:
Novacat wrote:
In the end, there is nothing OP about being able to concentrate on two targets.
It's only 1d12 damage per subsequent round.
It's easy to get out of range/full cover.
Casting at a higher level only increases the INITIAL damage, not the follow up damage.
I'd absolutely allow it to affect both creatures. Witchbolt is a very suboptimal spell. While it is theoretically cool, it is very difficult to pull off effectively. This might actually make it worthwhile for a sorcerer to take.
I don't think the ability is overpowered in any case.
It's painful to watch the confirmation bias in action. No one looks to disprove their pet theory, only seeing anything that would (in issolation) prove it.
Until there's an example from WOTC I cast occams razor - you can only concentrate on one spell. They would both do damage if they hit, then one would conk out the next turn as you could not give it concentration.
So even though it says "target a second creature in range with the same spell", you would rule that you are casting a second spell, rather than adding a target to the original spell?
Noon wrote:
Noon wrote:
jonathonhawke wrote:
Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:
So if WOTC doesn't respond, we're wrong?
jonathonhawke wrote:
Noon wrote:
Noon wrote:
I think this entire discussion boils down to an argument over the word "same" in the books description.
The PHB wrote:
Smashpunk wrote:
Noon wrote:
This is the first time I've seen 'witch bolt' and 'broken' in the same thread. Thanks for the laugh.
I don't think its overpowered by any means. Just trying to keep both targets within 30' of you will be an adventure in and of itself. 