Vocal Spell Components

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Nominrath

Jun 07, 2015 14:05:52

Had an interesting situation come up yesterday in my game regarding vocal spell components and languages. A player attempted to conceal his spell-casting attempt by speaking his vocal components in a different language. I was wondering how others interpret the rules regarding them. The text reads that vocal components require specific and particular sounds and such which leads me to believe that vocal components for spells are made in a kind of special "arcane" language, i.e. the words aren't necessarily spoken in common or any other racial language. This makes me think that speaking the words in a different language will either cause the spell to fail because the word in, say, infernal for example, isn't the same word and thus doesn't have the same pronunciation in the 'arcane' language. Or that it doesn't make any difference what language the components are spoken because the word is the same in all languages. For example, borrowing from Harry Potter, 'patronus' is spoken 'patronus' no matter what language it's in.

 

Thoughts?

#2

Tashiro

Jun 07, 2015 15:39:57

I presume that it is an arcane language.  Nobody who understands anything about magic is going to mistake what you're doing.  The other thing in my game however, is that I enforce that a spell is cast with a strong voice - not shouting, but you aren't whispering your spells, either.

#3

Nevvur

Jun 07, 2015 19:15:25

It's DM fiat, but an interesting notion anyway. For divine casters, the gods probably don't care which language you use when petitioning for their power (though Correllon might prefer you don't use Orcish). Same could be said of nature casters and the spirits/energies they tap into. Bards, sorcerers and warlocks stray into more debatable territory, but I too imagine wizard verbal components being from an arcane language.

#4

jaelis

Jun 07, 2015 19:19:29

The DM just needs to decide if you can disguise spellcasting or not. Might be reasonable to call for a check of some kind. I don't think something as simple as using a different language would make a difference.

#5

Ilse

Jun 07, 2015 23:55:25

In my game, as Tashiro said, it has to be a fairly strong voice. I also allow some "disguising" in particular for spells lacking some components, in particular lacking V or S. Note that V requires "mystic words", but we haad a discussion on another thread, "mystic" only means "related to magic" and as you are casting a spell, by definition, the words become mystic. Also note for example that Wish is V only and only says: "By simply speaking aloud".

 

In cases where there might be some doubt, Deception seems an appropriate check.

#6

Coredump00

Jun 08, 2015 0:38:39

If spells are in your native language, that really puts a twist on spell scrolls..... 

 

I think spells are using some fairly universal arcane 'language' of sounds/words/whatever.

#7

Saeviomagy

Jun 08, 2015 3:43:38 		The rules say: Your can't whisper a spell (they specifically require resonance and pitch), but beyond that you can say them as quietly as you like. I would also say that different versions of a spell use different words, but that anyone familiar with the appropriate spellcasting (knowledge arcana, nature or religion) can recognise the goal of the magic. I'd also also say that you can find out knowledge of a spellcaster from how he casts his spells.
#8

Ilse

Jun 08, 2015 4:30:42

Saeviomagy wrote:
#9

QwertyAzerty

Jun 08, 2015 7:06:47

Nominrath wrote:
#10

Ilse

Jun 08, 2015 18:27:02

QwertyAzerty wrote:
#11

jaelis

Jun 08, 2015 19:40:30

Ilse wrote:
#12

Ilse

Jun 08, 2015 21:46:51

jaelis wrote:
(Reply to #10)

Saeviomagy

Ilse wrote:
#14

Ilse

Jun 08, 2015 22:32:45

Saeviomagy wrote:
#15

cowleymen

Jun 08, 2015 23:17:52

for most of my games, draconic is the arcane languge, not standard draconic though. I guess its more of a differnce of High Draconic vs low/conversational. At least for arcane casters. I think it keeps it simplier. Anyone with draconic will recgonize the High Draconic as well. THis is veryu much a DM fiat question, unless you play in a setting that has specific cannon about this subject.  

 

I like mulmasters thing, but agree with llse that in a lot of situations i would have eligble spell casters watching you make their own roll to see through your deception, dc based on the roll ,ade by the deciver.

#16

Horwath

Jun 09, 2015 0:02:41

I would just like to see official ruling for how loud verbal components actually are, and do they differ(I would say yes) from spell to spell.

 

Is it DC 0, 5 or 10? Could you buff yourself 100ft away and then try to sneak in?

and what skills could you implement to raise that DC? stealth with casting ability? concentration? casting ability check with or without proficiency?

(Reply to #12)

QwertyAzerty

Ilse wrote:
#18

Ilse

Jun 09, 2015 20:52:35

QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #18)

Ilse

Also note the errata on sentinel, it removed the 5' from the second bullet point, meaning that it works well with reach weapons. Not that interesting to a rogue, but it's a small additional benefit.

#20

Enevhar_Aldarion

Jun 12, 2015 1:35:27

Unless the rules system or setting material specifically list how arcane vocal components sound or give a specific language, I have always imagined them to be in a unique format that would sound basically the same, no matter who was saying them.  For a fairly recent example, think Harry Potter. A unique arcane vocabulary where the command words are the same, and sound the same, no matter the caster's native language.

#21

Ilse

Jun 12, 2015 16:44:31

Enevhar_Aldarion wrote:
#22

Orethalion

Jun 12, 2015 17:49:23

Ilse wrote:
#23

BRJN

Jun 12, 2015 19:26:23

For my homebrewed worlds, there is a "language of magic", usually Draconic.  It interacts with modern tongues the same way Latin did with Medieval Europe.  There is nothing in the rules requiring any particular language be used.

 

IIRC, Harry Potter speaks Latin for his spells.  Copycat.

 

It could be fun to find a very ancient spell scroll that is written in hieroglyphics.  You would then have to discover the Rosetta Stone so you could translate it into a recognized language and find out what the spell really is.  (Might be better for high-level spells, since you can more-easily get the resources to do the research.)  Beware of a spell scroll written in Loross which has Karsus' name all over it (Karsus' Avatar) !

 

#24

Ilse

Jun 12, 2015 23:18:16

Orethalion wrote:
#25

Orethalion

Jun 13, 2015 0:42:44

Ilse wrote:
#26

Ilse

Jun 13, 2015 15:45:22

Orethalion wrote:
#27

Orethalion

Jun 13, 2015 15:56:49

Ilse wrote:
#28

BRJN

Jun 13, 2015 19:18:41

The discussion appears to be heading towards the possibility of a Truename language being what scrolls are written in.  Unless I misinterpret?

 

 

#29

OoftaMeg

Jun 13, 2015 19:23:45

IIRC in previous editions, what "language" spells were in was specifically spelled out, probably a magical language based on draconic.

 

It's not defined anywhere I know of for this edition so I'd say it's campaign dependent.  Considering that the basic assumption is that everyone speaks common, I think it's pretty safe to say that spell scrolls are also written in a common language of magic.

 

 

 

 

#30

MechaPilot

Jun 13, 2015 20:49:56

Enevhar_Aldarion wrote:
(Reply to #27)

Ilse

Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #29)

Ilse

OoftaMeg wrote:
#33

MechaPilot

Jun 13, 2015 22:44:18

Ilse wrote:
#34

Orethalion

Jun 13, 2015 22:44:20

Ilse wrote:
#35

Ilse

Jun 14, 2015 4:53:31

Orethalion wrote:
#36

Orethalion

Jun 14, 2015 9:41:26

Ilse wrote:
#37

Alynn

Jun 14, 2015 8:55:51

Orethalion wrote:
#38

Orethalion

Jun 14, 2015 9:41:53

Alynn wrote:
(Reply to #36)

Macv12

"Pitch and resonance" aren't generally conveyed in written language, anyway. I can give you Arabic written in an alphabet you can read, that will do nothing for your ability to enunciate it correctly. If a scroll can contain that information, it's probably magically assisting the reader regardless of language. Just writing it in some language of arcana would mean the uninitiated have no chance of ever reading it, and writing it in another language (like English, for the sake of argument) would fail to convey the pitch and resonance.

 

 

A language is spoken precisely.
#40

Orethalion

Jun 15, 2015 6:20:25

Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #40)

Macv12

Orethalion wrote:
#42

Ilse

Jun 15, 2015 13:44:51

Orethalion wrote:
#43

Ilse

Jun 15, 2015 15:20:03

Orethalion wrote:
#44

Orethalion

Jun 15, 2015 17:54:52

Macv12 wrote:
#45

Orethalion

Jun 15, 2015 18:08:27

Ilse wrote:
#46

Enevhar_Aldarion

Jun 15, 2015 19:12:02

 

 

 

 

The DMG states: "Any creature that can understand a written language can read the arcane script on a scroll and attempt to activate it. " So obviously, you do not need to understand the arcane script, nor what you think of as "arcane language" to be able to read it from a scroll.
#47

Orethalion

Jun 15, 2015 19:23:06

Enevhar_Aldarion wrote:
#48

Ilse

Jun 15, 2015 23:05:28

Orethalion wrote:
#49

Orethalion

Jun 15, 2015 23:12:37

Ilse wrote:
#50

Ilse

Jun 15, 2015 23:15:03

Orethalion wrote:
#51

Ilse

Jun 15, 2015 23:29:23

Orethalion wrote:
#52

Orethalion

Jun 15, 2015 23:33:38

Ilse wrote:
#53

Orethalion

Jun 15, 2015 23:36:06

Ilse wrote:
#54

Ilse

Jun 15, 2015 23:59:28

Orethalion wrote:
#55

Ilse

Jun 16, 2015 0:03:55

Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #44)

Macv12

Orethalion wrote:
#57

Orethalion

Jun 16, 2015 11:37:10

Ilse wrote:
#58

Ilse

Jun 16, 2015 14:36:30

Orethalion wrote:
#59

Orethalion

Jun 16, 2015 14:43:46

Ilse wrote:
#60

Ilse

Jun 17, 2015 23:18:53

Orethalion wrote:
#61

Orethalion

Jun 17, 2015 23:55:26

Ilse wrote: