Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 akaddk Nov 04, 2014 1:07:00	If you get a bonus attack like say from dual wielding, when does the bonus attack occur? Can you move after your main weapon attack and then use the bonus attack? What about the bonus attack from Polearm Master? Or with ranged weapons like dual wielding hand crossbows?
#2 Lucas_Blackstone Nov 04, 2014 2:53:51	akaddk wrote:
#3 Noctaem Nov 04, 2014 4:20:00	A clear example of a bonus action attack that must be done immediately is Flurry of Blows from the monk which actually specifies "immediately after".  All of the other bonus action attacks (crossbow expert, two-weapon fighting, etc) do not specify any such thing.  So you can meet the requirement of the bonus action attack via attacking one target and then move or do whatever else you want and finally make the bonus action attack later during your turn as you wish.  So to answer your questions:   If you get a bonus attack like say from dual wielding, when does the bonus attack occur? A: Unless the bonus action specifies when it must be taken (like flurry of blows) it is up to the user to decide when he makes the attack.   Can you move after your main weapon attack and then use the bonus attack? A: Yes (with the exception of flurry of blows).   What about the bonus attack from Polearm Master? A: Yes.   Or with ranged weapons like dual wielding hand crossbows? A: If you have the Crossbow Expert feat (since it's the only way to gain a bonus action attack and attack multiple times), yes.
#4 Bloodscythe Nov 04, 2014 5:14:29	I read it to mean moving is independent and occurs simultaneously to attacking.   Movement isn't an action and can be broken up any way you want.  If I have the Extra Attack feature granting a 2nd attack, and I use my Attack action, have a movement of 30 ft, and I'm dual wielding daggers, I may do the following:   Declare I'm using my Attack Action.  (this now allows me to use my bonus action to attack with my off-hand weapon if I choose) Move 10 ft to a goblin. Use Attack 1 from my Attack Action. Move 10 ft to a 2nd goblin. Use Attack 2 from my Attack Action. Move 10 ft to a 3rd goblin. Use my Bonus Action to make an off-hand weapon attack per the TWF rules.   Or   Use Attack 1 from my Attack Action. Move 30 ft. Use Attack 2 from my Attack Action. Use my Bonus Action.   Or   Move 5 ft. Use Attack 1 from my Attack Action. Move 5 ft. Use Attack 2 from my Attack Action. Move 10 ft. Use my Bonus Action. Move 10 ft.   You are only restricted to use the Bonus Action if something grants you the use of a bonus action.  So using martials arts or TWF both grant a bonus action.  Bonus actions can only be used in your turn also so you can't "ready" it or hold it as a reaction on another creature's turn.   Let me know if you find something in the book that prevents this.
#5 Synjin Nov 04, 2014 8:39:41	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #5) Bloodscythe	Synjin wrote:
#7 Synjin Nov 04, 2014 10:52:02	Bloodscythe wrote:
#8 Coredump00 Nov 04, 2014 9:57:30	Can you take the bonus attack from Polearm master *before* your normal attacks?   It says you get the bonus "when" you take the attack action.
#9 Synjin Nov 04, 2014 10:18:18	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #9) Bloodscythe	Synjin wrote:
#11 Lawolf Nov 04, 2014 12:02:22	Can you take bonus actions in the middle of other actions?   The movement rules specifically call out that you use an action during your movement, but there is no rule stating you can use a bonus action in the middle of another action.    Furthermore, most abilities that give you bonus actions only work after you first take another action.    Also, it seems that if you could use bonus actions during other actions there would have been no need to change the wording on paladin smite spells from the alpha document to the final rules. In alpha, you could cast a smite spell when you hit a target with an attack. In the final rules smite spells were changed so you use them before you attack.    This would seem to indicate that bonus actions can't be taken in the middle of other actions, otherwise a paladin could simply make an attack, see if he hits, then cast a smite spell as a bonus action only when he will hit the target.
#12 Coredump00 Nov 04, 2014 12:18:56	When TWF, could you take your off hand (bonus) attack *before* taking the regular attack?
(Reply to #11) Bloodscythe	Lawolf wrote:
#14 Noctaem Nov 04, 2014 12:52:05	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #12) Bloodscythe	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #14) Coredump00	Noctaem wrote:
#17 paulstrait Nov 04, 2014 13:37:21	Coredump00 wrote:
#18 Synjin Nov 04, 2014 13:39:32	Coredump00 wrote:
#19 paulstrait Nov 04, 2014 13:49:51	Synjin wrote:
#20 Synjin Nov 04, 2014 13:49:11	paulstrait wrote:
#21 Noctaem Nov 04, 2014 13:50:50	Synjin wrote:
#22 Noctaem Nov 04, 2014 13:55:56	paulstrait wrote:
#23 paulstrait Nov 04, 2014 14:01:39	Noctaem wrote:
#24 paulstrait Nov 04, 2014 14:09:59	Noctaem wrote:
#25 FrogReaver Nov 04, 2014 16:33:47	By the way, there is no such thing as declaring an attack action in the rules.
#26 Dyndrilliac Nov 04, 2014 16:26:18	All bonus attacks occur when you take the Attack action, unless the ability or feature that grants the bonus attack says otherwise. For example, the feat Great Weapon Master grants you a bonus attack when you land a critical hit. In that case, the bonus attack occurs immediately after resolving the critical strike that triggered it.
(Reply to #25) Bloodscythe	FrogReaver wrote:
#28 akaddk Nov 04, 2014 17:59:29	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #25) Varden_Khol	FrogReaver wrote:
#30 Drycanth Nov 04, 2014 19:28:07	all bonus attacks that say after you make an attack action on your turn .... require that you    make an attack action >  make one bonus action > make any more attack actions or other actions .. or .. make any allowed action > make an attack action < make a bonus action   no matter what you do you must first make an attack action first followed by the bonus action.   The only time you may make a bonus action first would be when a bonus action has its prerequisit action or activity satisfied first. All bonus actions have a trigger that you must first complete before you can use them. Hence the name bonus action.   Some bonus actions restrict their use further such as the flurry of blows which has the "immedatly after" qualifier. This prohibits you making any action inbetween making the attack action and using the bonus action. Ergo you could not attack > move > flurry ... you would have to  attack > flurry > move .. or .. Move > attack > flurry.   All that I have currently seen that trigger on the attack action require Attack > bonus attack ... some will allow attack > move > bonus attack .... and some are further restricted to not allow the move. I am not aware of any that allow "before you make your attack" or any version there of. All that I have seen all say when you make or after both of which are timing restrictive.   Which plays into the general rule. The timing of "after you make" is a restriction on the timing. It clearly means Pre-requisit > bonus. Only spells seem to say "on your turn as a bonus action" which allows for said spells to be cast granting their effects for the following actions you take after using the bonus action. Se pp.260 misty step. You would cast misty step > move 30' > make any other actions.   In general so far most of the bonus actions seem to require a prior activating trigger action. The general rule and the wording of new features they add in later additions to the game may give other methods of bonus actions that do not require the prior action.   I hope this helps. I am not trying to say you are wrong if you want to use the rules differently. Only that a simple concise reading of the rules seems to show this is the way the wording of the rules works. Your table may varry so always check with your DM first.   *edit to clean up format
(Reply to #29) FrogReaver	Varden_Khol wrote:
(Reply to #27) FrogReaver	Bloodscythe wrote:
#33 paulstrait Nov 04, 2014 22:55:16	Drycanth wrote:
(Reply to #21) Coredump00	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #30) Coredump00	Drycanth wrote:
(Reply to #32) Bloodscythe	FrogReaver wrote:
#37 Noctaem Nov 05, 2014 5:07:55	Coredump00 wrote:
#38 Noctaem Nov 05, 2014 5:10:47	Bloodscythe wrote:
#39 Synjin Nov 05, 2014 7:25:08	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #39) Bloodscythe	Synjin wrote:
#41 Synjin Nov 05, 2014 8:41:34	[quote="Bloodscythe"]   Synjin wrote:
(Reply to #41) Bloodscythe	Synjin wrote:
#43 Synjin Nov 05, 2014 9:51:19	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #43) Bloodscythe	Synjin wrote:
#45 Synjin Nov 05, 2014 11:32:08	Bloodscythe wrote:
#46 Lawolf Nov 05, 2014 11:32:45	Bloodscythe wrote:
#47 paulstrait Nov 05, 2014 12:41:24	Lawolf wrote:
(Reply to #45) Bloodscythe	Synjin wrote:
(Reply to #47) Bloodscythe	paulstrait wrote:
#50 Illithidbix Nov 06, 2014 10:54:57	Having a quick bit of copy/pasta.   Bonus Actions wrote:
#51 Noctaem Nov 06, 2014 3:53:31	The above again completely ignores the fact that it says "Use the attack action AND ATTACK"  You have to make an attack against something before ever gaining the bonus action.
(Reply to #50) Bloodscythe	Illithidbix wrote:
#53 paulstrait Nov 06, 2014 7:43:21	Noctaem wrote:
#54 Noctaem Nov 06, 2014 8:36:01	paulstrait wrote:
(Reply to #52) Coredump00	Bloodscythe wrote:
#56 Noctaem Nov 06, 2014 11:19:28	Hell just froze over.  You both agree with what I've been saying.
(Reply to #56) Coredump00	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #52) Coredump00	Lets break this down a bit more....   Bloodscythe wrote:
#59 Coredump00 Nov 06, 2014 13:22:59	Hey, is the the time when I claim that anyone that disagrees must think that TWF is overpowered and unbalanced... and since its not, they must be wrong?  Perhaps I could bring up how a DM ruling otherwise is being adversarial and trying to hurt the players because they must be a control freak....