This has been brought up on the general board, but I'm not sure if it's been discussed here. There appears to be some ambiguity surrounding how the Ranger's Whirlwind Attack works in relation to movement.
So my question is - has there been any clarification on whether or not you can move between attacks during the Whirlwind, which would greatly increase the number of potential targets while also putting you at risk Opportunity Attacks?
The RAW seems to the support this conclusion even though it seems a little counterintuitive. However, if you cannot move between the attacks, it seems that it's really underpowered compared to Volley. To me, this would make a rather large difference in how playable a melee oriented Ranger would feel.
Einlanzer wrote:
Lipfi wrote:
Einlanzer wrote:
This is a good point. I could see some argument for allowing movement, but I believe the feature is intended to have you count the targets when you take the action, then make attacks.
It'd work like this:
- Announce the Whirlwind action.
- Count all the creatures within 5' of you.
- For each creature, make one attack against them.
Similarly, Volley would be:
- Announce the Volley action.
- Count all the creatures within 10' of a point you choose (within range).
- For each creature, make one attack against them.
Allowing movement while "targeting" and attacking would certainly up the power level if a group is finding melee Hunter to be weak compared to ranged ones. It'd also make the Escape the Horde feature or the Mobile feat highly valuable for such a ranger.
The feature doesn't have a stationary requirement. I could see it going either way in an official ruling and the intent could very well be stationary. I like allowing the movement. It's way cooler to attack everything in your path in a whirlwind of frenzy while pressing forward than it is to spin around in one spot.
Its in the wording of Whirlwind.
You use your action to make multiple attack rolls vs any number of creatures within 5 ft of the ranger. So no moving between creatures for the one attack.
However, it only takes a single action to Whirlwind so the extra attack you get a 5 level allows you to make another whirlwind attack at another point in your movement.
Because Multiattack: Whirlwind Attack. is an action that includes more than one weapon attacks, i don't see any reasons why it wouldn't be letting you Moving Between Attacks.
PHB093 Whirlwind Attack: You can use your action to make a melee attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of you, with a separate attack roll for each target.
PHB190 Moving Between Attacks: If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks.
Lets break Whirlwind down.
1.) You can use your action to make a melee attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of you
2.) with a separate attack roll for each target.
So a single action that results in a melee attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of you, with a seperate attack roll for each target.
Although I do concede your point from the other thread about Whirlwind not working with extra attack or two weapon fighting due to the action not being a Attack action.
Bait-hammer wrote:
Lipfi wrote:
Almost positive that intent is at moment of action taken. Otherwise is extremely unbalanced and should be rewritten. Or should limit the total number of creatures that can be hit. Otherwise he could move full move plus any extra move gained from other sources and attack every creature along his path. The ranger's ability is an AOE and so should Whirlwind.
Bennedict wrote:
Bennedict wrote:
Well, if that's the case with whirlwind, it only makes sense that you could also do it with Volly. As long as you can see a spot to aim you could hit anyone within 10ft of that spot. Doesn't say they all have to be in the same spot, just a spot you can see. So you should be able to soot till your out of ammo.
Volley = 16/12 squares* (with ammo), Whirlwind = 8 (without ammo). (*12 not count the far corners of a radii.)
Assuming fullly encircled they seem balanced to me, due to the ammo requirements…
Whirlwind is only inferior to volley if you are in a vastly open area and your enemies are primarily ranged. This is generally not the case in D&D where there is a lot of close quarters fighting, making whirlwind attack quite viable and valuable, sometimes moreso than volley. Just because it won't necessarily hit as many enemies does not make it worse. You become a bigger threat to your enemies once they know you can do this, and you can hold down an area larger than many other players could due to this feature. Volley in a small set of tunnels is not going to work out so well at keeping the orc hordes at bay. They whirlwind attacking dual wielding ranger, on the other hand, would be more effective in this case. Don't forget this is an RPG. All this theorycrafting only considers combat with no obstacles and pure damage with no thought to actual usefulness or utility or what obstacles are likely to be in the way. Also, enemies bunch up more when fighting in melee than they do at range.
teron82 wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
Rules text seems to point at you just attacking anything in adjacent squares at the moment of activation.
However, that is weak as hell when compared to Volley. So being able to run around, hitting as many people as you can reach, seems to be what it must do. Then it at least has a different application than Volley (you could move in a line, as opposed to a circle), and deserves consideration.
It would also explain the presence of Escape the Horde, in the utter failure that is lv7. Rogue 2 would do the thing much better, but you may not have room for that.
mellored wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
Einlanzer wrote:
Horde Breaker works with Whirlwind as well as (Extra) Attack, so it doesn't really influence the decision much.
Basically, if Whirlwind is limited to 8 squares (the 8 squares within 5' when you decide to Whirlwind), you have the choice to use Attack (with Extra Attack) to hit 1 or 2 targets or Whirlwind to hit 3 or more targets. If there are two adjacent targets, you can use Horde Breaker, regardless of whether you use Attack or Whirlwind.
If you're considering two-weapon fighting, the choice becomes 1, 2, or 3 targets for Attack (plus two-weapon fighting) or 4+ targets for Whirlwind.
Granted, this is probably pretty rare (4+ targets), so allowing movement during Whirlwind seems fairly reasonable as an alternative, and again provides use for Escape the Horde and makes the Mobile feat very powerful for a Hunter Ranger (both because of the 10' bonus speed for Whirlwind and the ability to negate most if not all OAs while Whirlwinding).
FYI I've asked Jeremy Crawford and he said Whirlwind Attack is a single attack with multiple attack rolls and that the intent is no movement between the rolls;
@Plaguescarred Howdy Jeremy! Question RE Whilwind Attack-Must targets be wt 5' when taking action or attacking & can move between attacks?
@JeremyECrawford Whirlwind Attack is a single attack with multiple attack rolls. The intent is no movement between the rolls.
Plaguescarred wrote:
Does that mean when you use Volley against 8 targets, you load up your bow with 8 arrows and fire them all at once? 
Plaguescarred wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
Which brings up the question of why it isn't just a Dex Save AoE then, which'd at least make it more useful.
Without movement I'd take volley even if I was a two weapon ranger.
SpinG22 wrote:
Jeremy Crawford also said Volley is also a single attack, despite requiring an ammunition for each target. I will ask him if both Whirlwinf/Volley has only one damage roll then, since Damage Rolls says " If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them." (Basic Rules pg. 75)
@JeremyECrawford Like Whirlwind Attack, Volley is a single attack with multiple attack rolls.
Either most of you play games in completely open fields of combat, or you are theorycrafting and ignoring the reality of most situations. Whirlwind will hit as many enemies as volley if not more in most situaitons due to close quarters, obstacles, and the nature of melee combat requiring enemies to clump together.
However, on the note of there being one attack roll, and possibly one damage roll, how does that affect features like hordebreaker and Colossus Slayer when using Whirlwind/Volley?
Lipfi wrote:
teron82 wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
If whirlwind attack is a single attack with multiple attacks wouldn't extra attack work? If it does then both it and volley become worth it imo.
Another interesting thought is that If its a single attack, you could roll damage once for all of them according to the rules on damage rolls. This could include a single instance of extra damage applied to all the targets at once....
PHB196 Damage Rolls: If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them.
Horde Breaker doesn't influence the number of targets where Whirlwind beats Extra Attack, because both features can use Horde Breaker equally well. However, Two-Weapon Fighting does skew it a bit in favor of Extra Attack.
You can't use Whirlwind from Horde Breaker because Whirlwind rquires a specific action to perform.
For Colossus Slayer - the extra damage can be dealt to one creature and can only be dealt once per turn, so I would say that either:
1. You roll damage separately for Whirlwind and Volley, because you rolled separate attack rolls. The "one attack, separate attack rolls" already violates the general rules, so "one attack, separate damage rolls" isn't really a stretch. Additionally, damage rolls typically follow from attack rolls, so separate attack rolls implies separate damage rolls. This is important for attacks (versus non-attack damaging effects) because of critical hits.
2. You roll once for your Volley or Whirlwind, but only one of those eligible creatures can have the d8 bonus damage applied. This is consistent with what would happen if you Volleyed a group of monsters and one was affected by your hunter's mark, and considers the situation where you Volley a group of monsters including some unwounded (full HP) monsters and some wounded ones.
I would pick option 1 myself - separate attack and damage rolls. Separate critical damage rolls. Most things that deal damage for "one attack" are phrased using "when you hit," and since each target is hit separately, I would only allow bonus damage for "one attack" to only apply to one target struck. (Divine Smite, Battle Master maneuver, etc.)
I'd pick option 3: Assume they ass-pulled and got it wrong with their tweet(s).
Yunru wrote:
You'd think they'd make twf better considering Drizzt
So, a developer agrees with my interpretation from the other thread that the multiattacks are a single attack with multiple targets.
This means they should both work fully with Horde Breaker.
Horde Breaker.
Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
Regardless of Volley or Whirlwind being a "single attack":
1) Horde Breaker says it targets "a different" (singular) creature
2) Volley and Whirlwind require an action to perform, which is different than Extra Attack, which modifies an existing action (making an Attack doesn't require the Attack action, but that's generally the default way to make an attack, as opposed to Multiattack which requires its action to enable it)
So I'd still say that Horde Breaker gives 1 extra single-target attack when you Volley or Whirlwind
I don't see why Horde Breaker would not work with Whirlwind Attack/Volley since it can be used when you make a weapon attack, which you do.
He's saying Horde Breaker enables a second Volley.
i.e.:
You Volley, trigger Horde Breaker, for your "additional attack," you Volley again
I think that if you Volley, you just get one extra single-target attack from Horde Breaker.
Well, I'm glad it's been clarified, although I don't really get it. It's overly situational for a level 11 ability and really makes melee rangers not very good. How often are you going to be surrounded by 4+ enemies? It's bad enough the class pigonholes you into AoE over single-target; it's worse that it all but pigeonholes you into archery over melee.
To me, it's just confirmation that the Ranger is the most unpolished class in the PhB. I will be going with my houserule. At 11th level, you choose between Extra Attack or both Volley and Whirlwind to alleviate both of those problems simultaneously.
Einlanzer wrote:
Einlanzer wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Guest703856308 wrote:
Einlanzer wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Two-weapon fighting specifically requires an attack action as it states.
When you take the attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that your holding in one hand , you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that your holding in the other hand
They require a use of the Attack action, but the attack itself is a bonus action - invalidating the idea that all attacks must be Attack actions.
Additionally, there are OAs and the Frenzy feature of Barbarians, among many other attacks that aren't "Attack actions."
The point is that Whirlwind and Volley are not "an attack," they are "actions that allow an attack." You can choose to Whirlwind or Volley when you have a spare action, but not when you just have a spare attack from some source that isn't an action (such as Horde Breaker, the off-hand bonus action strike of two-weapon fighting, or Frenzy).
Whirlwind attack would be more worthwhile if it simply converted one of your attacks into the whirlwind attack, leaving you with your second attack available.
You're already pretty much guaranteed to be dual wielding, so the attack is going to be a d6 unless you have the dual wielder feat.
This plus horde breaker would firmly cement the Ranger as the swarm attack melee class. Otherwise
it only has value when adjacent to 3+ enemies.
This doesn't seem unbalanced to me, as the end result is simply one additional attack for the ranger.
Against two foes, at present, whirlwind is no different to taking the attack option. Against 3 foes the Ranger is getting 3 (whirlwind) +1 (bonus action) +1 (horde breaker). What's it really matter if you allow them one more attack?
On a side note, by RAW it sounds like whirlwind attack can't trigger horde breaker, because the free attack must be against a different target than the target of the original attack - which whirlwind targets all adjacent creatures. So you'd need to hit with your bonus action off hand attack.
I think Horde Breaker can be triggered just fine from Whirlwind, because Whirlwind talks about "each target," and Horde Breaker says "different creature" ... "original target."
The "one attack, many attack rolls" interpretation seems to create more problems than it solved. I personally will treat Whirlwind as one attack for the purposes of splitting movement, as that is the professed intent, but, as it causes many "attack rolls" as well as many "targets," most other rules interactions will be as if each attack were separate.
What prevents whirlwind working with horde breaker is the requirement of horde breakers target not being a target of whirlwind while still being within 5 ft of the original target and within reach of your weapon. ( Could have an edge case with a reach weapon and the horde breaker target being behind a whirlwind target.)
My personal decision: One whirlwind attack + one hordebreaker attack and I even allow an offhand attack, because otherwise a TWF ranger has no reason to take the multiattack action and is always better taking volley. My interpretation is multiattack replaces the two attacks from gained from the extra attack feature. I am not sure however, if I allow hordebreaker to be used against a target of the multiattack, because this would result in one target receiving as much damage as if the ranger had used extra attack.
Maybe in the playtest, when multiattack and voley were from seperate ranger paths there was no redundancy. If you rule it too strictly against the ranger, this ability becomes worthless. I also do like the move between attack thing, with high risk, high reward, but this may be a bit over the top. But maybe it isn´t. We´ll see.
Conclusion: multiattack in combination with other ranger features is complicated.
Edit: read everything again, and RAW, neither hordebreaker, nor TWF works, as in hordebreaker you need to attack a different creature in the same radius as whirlwind attack.
So my errata for the WW feature, and volley too:
Once on your turn, when you take the attack action, instead of making your regular numbers of attacks, you may instead make a single attack against each creature within 5ft of you.
This wording allows for TWF as a bonus action, which can trigger a hordebreaker attack. So you have one attack against a many creatures you like as your normal attack + 2 attacks with your offhand. Which is benefical if there are more than 2 creatures in your reach, although you can´t stack 3 attacks on a single creature as you would otherwise be able to do.
I guess this reading is fair, because otherwise the duelling ranger with giant slayer, a rapier and a shield is the only character who can benefit from multiattack at all.
Another oprion would be giving out a third option for TWFer:
Improved TWF:
When taking a bonus action to attack with your offhand weapon you may attack twice instead of once. That way, a ranger 11 using TWF for a ranger is as good as a TWF for a fighter at that level.
Einlanzer wrote:
Guest703856308 wrote: