Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Valdier Apr 15, 2015 19:54:39	The adult White and Green dragons... just don't make sense in their stats.   There is a *very* slight AC and hit point difference. The damage they do is effectively exactly the same. Everything about them is almost exactly the same. The white dragon's CR is 2 lower... is there any idea how this makes sense?
#2 Valdier Apr 15, 2015 20:10:49	In looking at the charts, the Green Dragon should be closer to:   AC: 19 Hit Points: 250 (+43 more) Damage: 63-68 (+4 damage or +1 die per attack) Breath: 19d6's (+3d6)   This *seems* like what it should be, per the DMG... but it is so off from the Monster Manual, I'm confused as to what happened honestly.   The Blue Dragon's hit points also look almost 100 points low... I'm really curious why none of them match the DMG.
#3 AaronOfBarbaria Apr 15, 2015 21:08:41	The short version: The guidelines in the DMG result in monster stats that are ready for playtesting, and are not a perfect match in all cases. After playtesting, each monster has had it's actual CR adjusted if it seemed a little easier or a little more difficult to deal with than it's original CR indicated.   The adult white dragon comes out to CR 14, but seems on the weaker end of that CR and dragons are meant to be "big and bad' so bumping it down to CR 13 makes perfect sense. Meanwhile, the adult green dragon comes out to CR 15 and seems fine at that rating - and sure, it isn't much different from the white dragon, but it does happen to be far more inteliigent (which matters to many DMs in how they portray the creature) and it's frightful presence DC is 2 points higher which is significant.
#4 Valdier Apr 16, 2015 0:59:02	So you are saying, two creatures with exactly the same stats, damage, effective hit points... are equally difficult for a party at level 14 because... it has more intelligence points?   The White Dragon sure seems like a 13 to me... and the Green? It's also a 13. Why? It's the same stat block.   It sounds a *lot* like you are just making up an excuse for a glaringly obvious error in the book.   "Of course they are the exact same, even though one is rated as being much tougher... but it's Charisma/Intelligence/Wisdom score is higher and that makes it MUCH tougher to SOME DM's"...   Seriously?
#5 AaronOfBarbaria Apr 16, 2015 1:10:18	The white dragon is a dimwit, and the green dragon is a genius; that matters to some DMs. Also, they aren't the same stat block since, besides the mental ability scores, the green dragon has better AC, higher damage, and higher frightful presence DC. Those are significant differences
#6 RulesJD Apr 16, 2015 1:32:19	Valdier wrote:
#7 Yumeii Apr 16, 2015 13:16:34	Valdier wrote:
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 16, 2015 12:56:05	RulesJD wrote:
#9 RulesJD Apr 16, 2015 13:22:11	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#10 Valdier Apr 16, 2015 13:24:52	Ok, let me ask this... Would giving a goblin a higher int bonus, raise its CR by 2?   CR is based on combat stats (or at least according to the DMG it should be. It shouldn't be based on arbitrary DM tactics. If a white dragon just brutishly sits and fights, and a green dragon does the same, should they be the same CR? What if the goblin stands back behind other goblins and uses a bow, should it's CR go up?   Per the DMG, CR is set based on damage, hit points, save DC, armor class and prof bonus. Not the Intelligence of the creature.   I'm not looking for an Ah-ha!!! I found a mistake!!! There are plenty of those, hell, tons of them. I'm more curious what the actual rationale behind it's much higher CR is with *nearly* the same stat block. I won't say the same, but per the CR calc rules, almost identical. The AC/hp trade-off is 5%, their hit points are close enough to negate that completely.   I still think based on the DMG, the green should have higher base damage, and about 40-50 hit points added. I've run 3 dragon fights in 5e so far, and most every dragon is dead by the second round (to a relatively magic low party. A single +1 bow). I've taken to adding hit points to them, but that is what got me looking at their actual CR's... they are lower than they should be compared to other monster stats in the same range that do come closer to matching the DMG's tables.
(Reply to #9) Yumeii	RulesJD wrote:
(Reply to #11) Valdier	Yumeii wrote:
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 16, 2015 13:52:09	RulesJD wrote:
(Reply to #10) Yumeii	Valdier wrote:
#15 cowleymen Apr 16, 2015 18:47:51	whites may not be geniuses, but an 8 is not an idoit. 8 is the human commoner avarage. So white dragons arent interested in learning complex lore or other magical things. 8 isnt an idoit though.    my only thing to say.
(Reply to #10) AaronOfBarbaria	Valdier wrote:
#17 Xaspian Apr 17, 2015 8:50:56	cowleymen wrote:
#18 Yumeii Apr 17, 2015 9:17:38	cowleymen wrote: