Hi folks,
I'm really trying to wrap my head around this one. One of the three pacts that Warlock can get is the Pact of the Blade. This allows you to create a magical proficient weapon out of thin air for purposes of melee combat.
The question is ... why bother? I've been pouring over the PHB to find somewhere where this might be useful, but I really can't spot anything.
- While you are proficient in it, it doesn't replace it's usual ability requirements, which is to say Strength or Dexterity for a finesse weapon, neither of which are particularly important for a Warlock (aside for Dex's boost to AC). So you'd have a harder time in swinging that thing than just staying at a distance and using Eldritch Blast.
- It can't be used as a foci for spells, so you'd realisitically only use a one handed D8 weapon so as to keep the other hand free for casting. At that point, you may as well pick another Pact and use a simple D6 mace instead if you want to keep a melee weapon handy for opportunity attacks.
- With Thirsting Blade, you can still only use it twice a turn, which at high levels is incredibly paltry compared to the four hard hitting long distance attacks that Eldritch Blast provides.
- Unlike the Paladin, you don't have any bonus action smite style spells at your disposal that I could find. Just regular actions and one reaction attack which can used at range.
So aside from those rare situations where you get your gear confiscated somehow, I see zero reason to even use it ever. IS there a reason that I'm just not seeing?
I think it reinforces a fighter-mage play style, similar to the Eldritch Knight, but coming from the opposite direction. Eldritch Knights also need two high ability scores if they plan on attacking with spells and weapons. I assume many characters who want to play Blade Warlocks will also want the War Caster feat.
It gives a free shifting martial weapon proficiency and the ability to add an additional stat modifier to damage, as well as an equivalent to the "Extra Attack" feature.
Not all spells, or even the majority of them, require M components- especially low level or cantrip attack spells (eldritch blast).
Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker could allow for, let's say 2 greatsword attacks + a bonus action attack (from a Feat or something) dealing 2d6 + 10 (17) damage each. Compare this 34-51 damage to four eldritch blast bolts with Agonizing Blast: 1d10 + 5 (10.5) or 42 damage. Assuming a bonus action attack every other round, the damage is about the same.
I think it's a style choice, but certainly not an invalid one.
But that's the thing ... I can't for the life of me find anything that *could* give a bonus action attack for a Warlock. Is there one? Good call on Lifedrinker, btw.
KarlB wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Polearm Master! Yes! That's genius, actually. It would make the perfect Pact Weapon since you can keep enemies 10 feet away and hence use ranged spells attacks without having disadvantage.
I had considered Great Weapon Master, but the bonus attack trigger isn't terribly reliable. I suspect most people are taking it for the damage boost in situations where you have melee advantage.
AradonTemplar wrote:
Depending on how you read Agonizing Blast, the warlock can get (1d10+5)*4, as well.
I've actually been looking at this myself. Eldritch Blast just seems to outpace a pact weapon as soon as it gets its third beam. Maybe the inclusion of magic weapons in the mix will even it out some.
2Chloro: Agonzing Blast adds CHA modifier *per hit* by the way, as each attack is attack and damaged rolled seperately unlike, say, Fire Bolt. So it's not 4D10. It's (1D10+5)x4
Aradon: the damage die for the bonus attack on polearms is a D4. But it doesn't count as two weapon fighting per se, so you would still add your Strength bonus to that damage roll, making it D4+Str+Cha. In the same way that the bonus attack from Crossbow Expert adds Dex modifier to damage. Every bonus action has a description that dictates how it's applied in that instance.
Yeah, I'm aware that Agonizing Blast can add more damage - see my first response in the thread. However, baseline eldritch blast and fire bolt were what I was comparing to a baseline 4 attacks. There are lots of modifiers than can apply to both spell and melee attacks, but it looks like there are a lot more options for increasing the damage of melee attacks.
thewok wrote:
True, but then it becomes a big feat and invocation tax for the Warlock.
Eldritch Blast needs Agonizing Blast. That's it. No additional ability investment requirement.
Pact Weapon needs Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Polearm Master and/or Great Weapon Master at the very least. Probably also War Caster. Not to mention an investment in Strength. And I don't see what else they can add to it. Again, unlike the paladin, they don't have bonus action damage booster spells. And while you can say that magic weapons will exist that could add an extra 3 damage per hit, that means there will also be foci that do the same.
That being said, if you have War Caster, mixing it up with Armor of Agathys, Arms of Hadar, and Vampiric Touch makes for an interesting close range combo.
Alright, I'm probably just being stubborn on optimization. You're right ... if you invest heavily into it, it makes for a different playstyle.
Rember you will usually only have 2-3 spell slots, the rest of the time you either attack with a weapon or cantrips. Pact blade can easilly make attacking with a weapon FAR better then cantrips.
So lets say your a 5th lvl warlock. You have the invocations of thirsty blade(2 attacks a round), Armor of shadows (free mage armor), and one with shadows (action to go invis in low light = great stealthing).
You have two choices, you can go for a dex only build focusing on fiense weapons for instance:
Your get a pact blade is a rapier (1d8) with an off hand dagger (1d4) You are a half-elf (+2cha/+1dex) or a tiefling or a drow. Using hex a lot is great with this because each of those off hand attacks triggers hex damage.
You could also go for a str based build (Although you need a decent dex too for good ac):
You get a pact blade of a Maul (2d6), and you are a dragonborn, half-elf (+2cha/+1str/+1dex), or half-orc
--------
You cast Armor of Agathys on yourself (+15 temp hitpoints and 15 damage to anything that attacks you), asuming the previous hour isnt up.
And then you can decide to
Hellish Rebuke (reaction causing dex save for half for 4d10 damage to something that attacks you)
Hex (bonus action to maintain consentration and add 1d6 dmg per attack and disadvantage on an ability check)
My guess is you can match any fighter at lvl5 this way, have a little bit lower AC, not quite as much hp, but far more damage.
At lvl 11 when they get thier 3rd attack, you get life stealer for +8-10 damage a round. Given the average damage rates of an extra attack that should be almost equal. By the time they are getting thier 4th attack, you will have power word kill/dominate monster/finger of death and you wont care all that much.
As long as you dont lose consentration you can keep hex going for 8 hours doing an extra d6 on every attack, war caster is great for keeping this going when you are attacked.
I think its mostly a style choice, but also sometimes you just get stuck in melee when Eldritch Blast will be at disad, but your sword attacks wont be. Or you dont want to put invocations into buffing eldritch blast?
- Hex can be used with Eldritch Blast
- Armor of Shadows is kinda useless for a Warlock, unfortunately, given they can already wear light armor.
- One with Shadows is useless in the melee attack sense for the most part. Moving breaks the invisibility meaning you will no longer have Advantage for your melee strikes. And it uses a full action to even do so. It's *much* better with Eldritch Blast as the trigger that breaks the invisibility is the chain of hits from the cantrip itself.
- Hellish Rebuke can be used at range. Armor of Agathys can save your skin even if you are using Eldritch Blast. In fact, you can even force it to trigger by moving away from close range and getting hit with an opportunity attack before actually launching your beams of death.
Aside from that, I can see how the damage, before level 17, can favor Pact Weapon if you add in Lifedrinker and use a Greatsword. Would be two attacks at 2D6 (average 7)+Strength+Charisma, whereas Eldritch Blast would be three at 1D10 (average 6)+Cha. If you assume 20 Charisma and 18 Strength (it won't be higher than that at that level, realistically, especially if you're getting War Caster), that averages 38 per turn with Pact Weapon, and 33 per turn with Eldritch Blast. And that's not even counting a feat like Great Weapon Master that could add another 20 damage to that if you luck out (smacking a prone target to get Advantage would make the -5 to hit worth the risk)
Okay, good call there.
Thanks, folks!
Ashrym wrote:
Kalani wrote:
I planned to build a dwarf melee warlock similar to what I had in 4e. You can start with a 17 str 14 con 13 dex 8 int 10 wis and 14 charisma while wearing medium armor and a warhammer that you wield two handed. So at first level the dwarf can do d10 +3 +d6 if I use the Hex spell. You can almost dump charisma actually because there are quite a few spells that dont need it to hit. When you get your pact weapon at 3rd level swithc to a maul for 2d6+3 +d6. At 4th level raise str and dex and get the best medium armor you can afford.
You basicly become a temp hit point battery with some cool movement and utility powers. Spam False life at will for d4 +4 temp then use Armor of Agathys along with thirsting blade at 5th level. You get cha mod plus level in temp life after every kill 
It's a fun class that takes a beating but has the temp hit points to hang in there and dish it out.
To answer OP. Why? Because it's cool. You walk around unarmed and when someone jumps you,you summon your weapon. Instant cool factor. I didn't go over math or mechanical benefit,my main rule is rule of cool. 
By level 5 a Fighter 1 / Warlock 4 can have 2 x 1d10 + 13 and 1 x 1d4 + 13 attacks, reroll all 1s & 2s, all at 10 ft. so they won't provoke AO when you move around, mostly with advantage. With most attacks against you at disadvantage. Not to mention heavy armor and proficiency in CON saves. If you don't wanna go the Darkness rout, go Warcaster and Repelling Blast. Now the first person to come within 10 ft. of you that round gets blasted with 2 Eldritch Blasts (with more at higher level) knocking them back. Heck, even just going PotB without investing in Thursting Blade would be worth it for the EB OA. Either way, Blade Warlocks are very viable, especially combined with Polearm Master.
EDIT: I fully plan on making a Lockssassin going Rogue 2 / Warlock 3. Picking up Devil's Sight and replacing whatever other one when I hit Warlock 3 with Thursting Blade. Whip as my Pact weapon to be able to attack at a10 ft. range and get sneak attack in my Darkness bubble.
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
You need to be level 5 in Warlock to get Thirsting Blade. So if you were a human Fighter 1/Fighter 5, then yes. Not sure why attacks against you would be at disadvantage, though. Also, if someone moves in to *their* reach from polearm reach, you wouldn't be able to use Eldritch Blast as an OA unless you had War Caster, acquired at later levels. And if they are within their reach when it's your turn, your attacks with Eldritch Blast would be at disadvantage. Also, you need a hand free to cast it and would need to War Caster to be able to use it without the somatic element since you're holding a two handed weapon.
That being said, a level 11 Warlock with Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, and War Caster is indeed something to be feared.
KarlB wrote:
War Caster says you don't need a free hand to cast somatic elements if you are holding a two handed weapon. It says nothing about attacking with it. Ergo, logically, if you do not have this feat, then you cannot cast a spell while holding a two handed weapon.
And I'm quite certain that Thirsting Blade requires *Warlock* 5th level, not character 5th level.
KarlB wrote:
Actually, ALL class abilities are tied to the level in that class, not the total character level. Unless specifically stated otherwise in the multiclass rules, for example profiency bonuses.
And again, War Caster says nothing about attacking, but holding the weapon itself. Given this rule is an *exception* to the general rule, it implies that without War Caster, you need at least one hand free of a held weapon. Now obviously, the real sticker in these forums is whether or not you can just free the hand by releasing one hand from a two handed weapon's grip, but I do not believe that is how it's intended ... you need two hands to even hold it in place without the whole thing becoming unbalanced and pulling you down with it's weight.
Think about it this way: If you *could* do as you described, every single Wizard and Sorcerer in D&D would take a single level of Fighter just so they could walk around the battlefield with a polearm. Do you sincerely believe that Wizards of the Coast intended for that to be the case?
By the way, speaking of bow and arrows, as I see this used as a counter pretty often, remember that specific beats general. Hence why the Ammunition property (PHB 146) states you can draw it as part of the action, otherwise it would count as a standard drawing of a weapon. It's why the Loading property then counters THAT specific rule so that you can only fire a crossbow once per turn unless you have the Crossbow Expert feat.
KarlB wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
He can wield it, but it will be at disadvantage always.
Suzume_Stjohn wrote:
You know, those guys in the photos above likely would not be able to ready and swing their weapon quick enough to react to anything. But that's moot. I would personally rule against casting a V,S,M spell and wielding a two handed weapon at the same time.
Pulling a component pouch or foci from your belt and into your free hand to cast counts as interacting with an object (general rule with no specific counter rule like the ammunition one), just as pulling a weapon or potion from your belt would be. So you wouldn't be able to put it back on your belt in the same turn. So even if you *could* easily hold a two handed weapon in battle ready stance with just one hand, you wouldn't actually be able to use it since your other hand still has the pouch or foci in it.
KarlB wrote:
KarlB wrote:
Where did you see Character Level in the description for Thirsting Blade? It just says 'Level'. The rule thoughout the book is that in class abilities, 'Level' means class levels, not character levels. Otherwise, you'd just have everyone multiclassing into every single class and then claiming they can use their high level abilities because it doesn't use the words "Class Level" specifically.
The whole holding two handed weapons with one hand is actually unclear, so yeah, either of us could be right. My argument is based on what I perceive as designer intent.
Mind you, the whole drawing your pouch or foci into your hand is NOT a house rule. It's very implicitly covered under the interact with an object rule by stating that A) you need a free hand to *access* the material components, and B) counts as object interaction by dint of the fact that you are taking something that was not previously in your hand and then placing it in your hand. Take a look at the checklist ... those examples are all exactly the same. The only real exception of that rule is for bows and arrows because it is *explicitly stated* as such in the ammunition rules. Remember, general rules unless specific exceptions. I mean, the list doesn't say anything about puppies either ... does that mean you can spend your turn picking up and tossing in the air an infinite amount of puppies? Seriously, man, don't twist the rules to make it mean what you want it to mean rather than what it actually does. Taking your pouch from your belt and holding it in your hand is an object interaction. Taking it from your hand and putting it back on your belt is also an object interaction. You cannot do both in the same turn.
This is why I recommend melee caster types use versatile weapons. Because no matter what happens, you'll always have your weapon ready to be used, either one handed or two handed. Unless you have War Caster and stick to V,S only spells. In which case, pike away!
Actually most class granted abilities state they're based on class level. "Level" generally refers to character level unless specified otherwise.
For instance, the Fighter's Extra Attack:
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of
once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you
reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach
20th level in this class.
Yunru, actually I think that part is stated specifically due to the fact that only the Fighter, and not the Paladin or Ranger, get a third and fourth attack in one turn.
I really do sincerely believe that each ability listed in each class is specific to class levels, not character levels, unless stated explicitly otherwise in the multiclass rules.
Seriously ... would you expect a Druid 4/Barbarian 4/Paladin 4/Ranger 4/Rogue 4 to be able to have a Strength and Constitution of 24, shapeshift an unlimited number of times, be able to grow angel wings, add their wisdom bonus to an attack every turn, and automatically roll a 20 on a skill check a couple of times a day? Of course not.
Yunru wrote:
If it's a class feature that you get for being a certain level in that class on the leveling chart then yes you must reach that level. However for the warlock power which can be changed out through
various stages of your advancement you just need to meet the level requirement.
KarlB wrote:
Let's look at a class feature that is almost identical to the Warlock's Eldritch Invocations, the Four Elements Monk's Elemental Disciplines.
Disciple of the Elements PHB p.80:
"You learn one additional elemental discipline of your choice at 6th, 11th, and 17th level. Whenever you learn a new elemental discipline, you can also replace on elemental discipline that you already know with a differnt discipline."
Elemental Disciplines PHB p.81:
"If the discipline requires a level, you must be that level in this class to learn the discipline."
So... The developers can be clear on this, but not on Eldritch Invocations? For the Monk you must be at the level where you learn a new discipline to replace an old one. For a Warlock you just need to gain a level in the class and the invocation must be one you can learn to replace an old one. For a Monk to learn a discipline that requires a level, you must be of that level as a Monk to learn it. For a Warlock to learn an invocation that requires a level, you must be of the required level to learn it. Pretty bold distinction, wouldn't you say?
thewok wrote:
thewok wrote:
KarlB wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
thewok, take a look at page 190 in the PHB. It gives examples of interacting with an object and how you can only do it once for free per turn. Every one of those examples talk about how you put your hand on an object, whether to pick it up, draw it from a scabbard, flip a switch ... and most of it talks about the act of retrieving an object from where it previously was, and then putting it on your hand for use. And the spellcasting rules on page 203 is very clear that you need a free hand to access and use those material components OR component pouch OR foci. I understand you feel that, given that spellcasting is a core concept of the game, that there should be no barriers. But it looks like the philosophy behind fifth ed is that the same rules apply for everyone. So just like a rogue needs to pull a dagger out of his belt as an object interaction before he can use that dagger to attack, a wizard needs to pull his foci or pouch from his belt and place it in his hand, as an object interaction, before you can use it to cast a spell. The only exception is on V,S spells that don't require mats or foci.
From what I can see, the ONLY exception to this item draw is on items that have the Ammunition property. So listen, if you and your DM (or your players as the case may be) prefer not to count the drawing of useful items, such as a sword , component pouch, or foci as 'interacting with an object', that's fine and you do that. But as RAW, it really does imply that taking your pouch and putting it in your hand is, for all intents and purpose, the same as drawing a weapon. Otherwise, it would be essentially gimping non-casters.
Danny_Montanny wrote:
KarlB wrote:
I think you misread how component pouches work in this instance, though. If you take a look at the spellcasting rules, it says that instead of using a component, you can instead use a component pouch or a focus item. I read component pouch as an item loaded with components that you can just keep in your hand instead of drawing from all the time. Same with foci. In fact, if you agree (and some people do) that pulling a foci from your belt is an object interaction, then absolutely no wizards ever would use one. It's as if your better off not using one, which doesn't really make sense given it's a class feature. For all intents and purposes, a focus item should generally be a better thing to use than a component pouch as you can get magic foci like Magic Missile wands. It's why the spellcasting rules stress that you need a free hand. That implies that having both hands tied up, whether holding a two handed weapon or a weapon and shield, is a bad deal for casters ... unless they can work around it with just V,S spells and the War Caster feat that specifically says you can use somatic free hand components while holding weapons or shields in both hands. If you could just free up your hand, cast your spell, and then swing your greatsword, all in the same round, then that feat description is redundent and would simply not have been written, right?
Anyways, we'll have to agree to disagree here. But no, my method doesn't gimp casters as in principle, you should just be keeping your focus item or component pouch in your hand at all times. Hence Gandalf with his sword in one hand and focus staff in the other.
P.S: We segwayed on this thread, didn't we? At least the whole Why Use A Pact Weapon query was addressed earlier ;)
eleran wrote:
KarlB wrote:
eleran wrote:
KarlB wrote:
Eric888 wrote:
thewok wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
thewok wrote:
KarlB wrote:
Eric888 wrote:
KarlB wrote:
Multiclass builds are not used at my table...problem solved 
meteorstorm wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
This doesn't seem like a big problem to me. A Blade Warlock can still take Repelling Blast and Agonizing Blast if they want. If they eschew eldritch blast completely, that's an extra cantrip slot for the warlock.
None of the warlock Pact Manifestation features are particularly powerful on their own. The familiar can be dropped in one or two hits (at most) and has a fairly weak (CR 1, at best) non-scaling attack or special power. The book cantrips are certainly useful, but nothing is going to do more damage than eldritch blast. A Book Warlock could learn shillelagh and become a melee fighter in that regard, and ignore Strength or Dexterity, but it doesn't have the Invocation support of Pact of the Blade.
Pact of the Blade Warlocks can also change their pact weapon from one encounter to the next. If they want a reach weapon in one fight, they can manifest a glaive. If they want a finesse weapon, they can manifest a rapier or a scimitar. The weapon also bypasses resistance against nonmagical weapons as soon as the feature is acquired.
I'd say the main advantage of a Pact Weapon over eldritch blast, however, is for OAs. Even with War Caster, eldritch blast is horrible for OAs, due to the disadvantage imposed on its attack rolls. Additionally, a Blade Pact Warlock can benefit from haste or Commander's Strike more readily than a "caster" warlock. A Blade Pact Warlock would also be better suited to dealing with globe of invulnerability or antimagic field, although those are fairly specific edge cases.
There are several synergistic spells for a Blade Pact Warlock - blade ward, fire shield, Armor of Agathys, Arms of Hadar, counterspell, vampiric touch, and burning hands all seem particularly useful for a close-ranged warlock, as does the Fey Presence pact feature.
I think it was missed earlier in the thread but the staff, the arcane focus, is not the same thing as the quarterstaff, the weapon. This is confirmed on page 150, where the arcane focus staff is listed as a completely different entry from the quarterstaff.
Ganymede425 wrote:
That could be the case, as both the arcane focus staff and the quarterstaff weigh the same.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think you're missing or misrepresenting a few things here, Strill.
Repelling Blast + Agonizing Blast is two Invocation slots. Thirsting Blade + Lifedrinker is also a total of two slots. A Blade warlock pays the same "invocation tax" as a blaster. The Blade Warlock, however, could take all 4 if he or she wanted and still have several slots left at higher levels.
No familiar gives magic reistance to the Warlock.
Being able to conjure a whip, a polearm, a dagger, or a sword without having to carry around one of each is a pretty significant quality of life bonus, as well as the ability to sneak that weapon into guarded areas or into areas where it would be impractical to carry a large weapon. Finesse weapons could have benefits for other characters situationally, for example if your rogue loses his or her shortsword. Additionally, some combat situations may impose penalties for non-light or heavy weapons. It's not grossly powerful in itself, but with the other advantages of a conjurable weapon, it's about as useful as any other Pact Manifestation to the right character.
Assuming magic weapons is a mistake I feel in 5e, and certainly at lower levels, where the pact manifestations are the most relevant, having a "magic" pact weapon could make a large difference.
Hitting that first eldritch blast to "knock away" people in melee range of the Warlock is a very risky proposition. Even at level 17, you're only stasitically likely to hit one blast with disadvantage. Additionally, the spell does not specifically say that the effects are concurrent or consecutive. If the effects are concurrent, all 4 attack rolls have disadvantage regardless of whether any others are hits.
The synergy to most of the spells I mention come precisely from the range. A melee-focused Warlock will have more opportunities to use short-ranged spells or spells that trigger upon receiving a melee attack. That makes the spells more powerful than for a ranged caster. You're welcome to try to engage in melee combat using eldritch blast, but see the previous part about disdavantage.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Strill wrote:
Strill wrote:
BW0222 wrote:
KarlB wrote:
My Warlock wears a Crystal on a chain around his neck. He summons a Maul as his pact weapon. When he wants to cast spells, he holds the maul in one hand and fondles the crystal around his neck, then he wields the maul in two hands when he is done casting. Simple.
Strill wrote: