Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Coredump00 Aug 24, 2015 12:25:44	So... you keep your proficiencies when you wild shape.... but what is your proficiency bonus?   A Druid 10 has a +4 bonus, a CR3 creature has a +2 bonus.   If the druid changes into a CR3 creature.... is his bonus +4 or +2?         So once that is decided.... wouldn't that apply to all proficiencies?  Saves, attacks, skills, etc....
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 24, 2015 15:51:27	I long thought the druid's bonus was unchanged, but I can't seem to substantiate that now - your stats are replaced by the form's, and that includes your proficiency bonus.   This does lead to at least two problems, namely lower-level forms not scaling all that well and the save DCs of spells you're concentrating on change as you shift. These would go away (or at least be limited) if the proficiency bonus remained unchanged.
#3 AaronOfBarbaria Aug 24, 2015 18:32:10	You use the beast form's profciency bonus.   What "keep your proficiencies" means is that if you are proficient in Athletics but the animal form you took isn't, you are still proficient in Athletics while in that form (adding the form's proficieny bonus to the form's relevant ability modifier).
#4 Slagger_the_Chuul Aug 24, 2015 23:53:50	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#5 mellored Aug 25, 2015 6:30:08	Your game statistics are replaced   retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom , and Charisma scores. retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies retain the benefit of any features from your class,race ....  can’t use any of your special senses,     No mention of attack proficencies.
#6 Noctaem Aug 25, 2015 7:36:59	mellored wrote:
#7 Slagger_the_Chuul Aug 25, 2015 9:53:28	mellored wrote:
#8 MasterNamer Aug 25, 2015 9:48:49	Your proficiency bonus is based on your character level, so why would that not be used in the new form?
#9 Yunru Aug 25, 2015 10:01:55	Because it's also based on CR?
#10 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 25, 2015 10:50:42	We're not talking about an "attack proficiency" - we're talking about the size of your singular proficiency bonus.   For instance, a level 5 (proficiency +3) druid shifts into a wolf (proficiency +2). The druid is proficient in Athletics due to his background. The wolf lacks that proficiency. Because you retain your skill and save proficiencies, your wolf form is proficient in Athletics. The druid is proficient in Wisdom saves. The wolf is not. Because you retain your skill and save proficiencies, your wolf form is proficient with Wisdom saves. The druid, before he shifts, is concentrating on Call Lightning; he has a 16 Wisdom. The wolf has a 12 Wisdom. Because you retain your Wisdom score, you have 16 Wisdom. None of this is in dispute. The part that is in dispute is the proficiency bonus that's attached to all of these. If you retain your original proficiency bonus, your Athletics check is +4, your Wisdom save is +6, and your Call Lightning DC is 14. If you replace it with the wolf's proficiency bonus, your Athletics check is +3, your Wisdom save is +5, and your Call Lightning DC is either 13 (if it's set by whatever your proficiency bonus is at the moment) or 14 (if it's set when you cast it). This last point is also one that is never discussed in the rules, because ability scores and proficiency bonuses usually don't change midway through something's duration. Absolutely none of this refers to attacks (though I could get into that too).   As I read it, your proficiency bonus is replaced, since it's not one of the specific exceptions called out in the text. (Whether you're proficient or not is not the same as how big the bonus is if you're proficient.) This introduces all sorts of problems, both of the rules-question variety (does a spell's strength change midway through concentrating if you shift?) and of the questionable-balance variety (beast forms get stale offensively very quickly).   EDIT: There is one weird clause in the Wild Shape rules, where if you and your new form share a proficiency and the form's stat block is higher, you get the form's proficiency. Consider when this would happen: If you switch into a form with a much higher mental ability score than you, it would probably trigger: you still have your own mental ability score, which presumably puts a lower bonus on that proficiency. However, if you use the creature's proficiency bonus, for the majority of your career, this corner case will never happen, because the difference in proficiency bonuses between, say, a level 9 druid and a CR 3 monster is high enough to make up for nearly any realistic gap in mental ability scores!
#11 mellored Aug 25, 2015 10:39:52	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
(Reply to #11) Gruff_Ironfist	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
(Reply to #11) Coredump00	mellored wrote:
#14 Feenex Aug 26, 2015 22:21:43	In the first bullet under the rules for Wild Shape, it reads "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours."    This would imply that you would use your proficiency bonus during Wild Shape, unless the creature shares a proficiency with you and its proficiency bonus is higher. In such a case, use the creature's proficiency bonus for that specific proficiency. It's definitely a bit tricky with the language, but it's there.
#15 Noctaem Aug 27, 2015 6:04:15	Feenex wrote:
#16 mellored Aug 27, 2015 5:56:02	Feenex wrote:
(Reply to #15) Feenex	Noctaem wrote:
#18 Coolossus2123 Aug 29, 2015 10:28:46	So basically, the jist of this was that you keep the proficiencies of your character, while gaining the proficiencys of the creature you wildshape into. For the proficiency bonus you use your characters, but if you and the creature share a proficiency, you use whichever proficiency bonus is higher between you and the creature? This doesn't mean that for all the proficiencies you have  between the creature and the character, you use the higher proficiency bonus for all of them? And if the creature has one you lack, you use the creature's bonus instead as well?
#19 Noctaem Aug 29, 2015 15:05:55	Coolossus2123 wrote:
#20 Coolossus2123 Aug 29, 2015 20:31:39	Thank you!