Wild shaping monks - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Apollo_Theron Oct 05, 2014 15:39:58	Suppose that there's a monk 1/(circle of the moon)druid 3 character which turns into a bear and at some point makes an attack action, does the character get his extra unarmed attack when making an attack action as a bear? I'm not quite sure since there seems to be ambiguity around what natural attacks are classified as, but it seems to be that natural attacks are considered to be unarmed strikes because of how a section of alter self is worded. "Natural Weapons. You grow claws, fangs, spines, horns, or a different natural weapon of your choice. Your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, as appropriate to the natural weapon you chose, and you are proficient with your unarmed strikes. Finally, the natural weapon is magic and you have a +1 bonus to the attack and damage rolls you make using it." If a wild shaping monk can get the extra attack while in his wild shape form what does his extra unarmed strike attack do for damage? Since he chooses to make an unarmed strike attack does he choose to either use one of the conventional natural attacks or does he have to attack the target as if he were monk using the unarmed strike table damage?
#2 Gruff_Ironfist Oct 05, 2014 17:00:54	I seem to recall another forum post going into this, but I don't recall the conclusion. That being said, DM Basic p.6: The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the “weapon” might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike. For more information on different kinds of attacks, see the player’s D&D basic rules or the Player’s Handbook.
#3 RCanine Oct 05, 2014 21:22:28	Neither claw nor bite is a monk weapon, nor is it an unarmed strike. Unarmed Strike is a specific thing, not any attack with natural weapons. That said, as DM I would allow a druid to use Unarmed Strike while wild-shaped, but that's up to the DM whether the beast's physiognomy can support that or not. It would use you monk damage die, of course.
(Reply to #3) Nevvur	RCanine wrote:
#5 RCanine Oct 06, 2014 1:44:40	Nevvur wrote:
#6 mellored Oct 06, 2014 5:31:25	RCanine wrote:
#7 austinmonster Oct 06, 2014 8:43:20	The big question I have is weather or not they can add their impressive Wisdom to their AC in a beast shape. I would be inclined to say yes to the AC, but no to the extra attacks and such.
#8 mellored Oct 06, 2014 9:10:43	austinmonster wrote:
#9 Yunru Oct 06, 2014 11:50:49	Note that you can't pick up both Unarmored Defense, whichever one you pick first us the one you're stuck with.
#10 RCanine Oct 07, 2014 10:31:24	mellored wrote:
#11 -ktkenshinx- Oct 07, 2014 11:08:14	A few things on this: 1. Unarmed Strike is its own weapon attack (See the Weapons Table in the PHB). Natural Weapons are their own weapon attacks, and vary from monster to monster. 2. Multiattack is not the attack action. Multiattack is just another action that the creature can make, much like dash, disengage, hide, etc. That means you cannot use either Flurry of Blows or the bonus Martial Arts attack after making a Multiattack. Why? Because you can only use those after the Attack action, and Multiattack is its own special action type. 3. That said, monsters CAN take the attack action if they want to, using any or all of their natural weapons in the process! So if you are a Brown Bear and have Extra Attack through Monk, you can take an attack action and then hit them with a claw and a bite. Then after the attack action, you can take a Flurry of Blows, which would be 2 unarmed strikes using your unarmed strike damage die. 4. The AC abilities all function in Wild Shape form, but you need to pick which one will apply to your AC. They are not modifiers that are added as in 3.5 Edition. They are all different ways to calculate AC and you get to choose one.
#12 RCanine Oct 07, 2014 14:57:23	-ktkenshinx- wrote:
#13 CetteHamsterLa Oct 08, 2014 7:09:20	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #7) 1eejit	austinmonster wrote:
#15 jonathonhawke Oct 08, 2014 7:27:32	CetteHamsterLa wrote:
#16 -ktkenshinx- Oct 08, 2014 8:48:19	1eejit wrote:
(Reply to #16) 1eejit	-ktkenshinx- wrote:
#18 -ktkenshinx- Oct 08, 2014 10:06:25	1eejit wrote:
#19 Timborama Oct 08, 2014 13:12:57	Wildshape and Unarmored Defense is a very clear case of "Specific Vs. Specific" Which means? The DM decides. Well, with player input, of course! Is the Barbarian getting his +AC from ANY bodily form he assumes? Or just the one he normally occupies and grew up with? Does the Monk obtain +AC from how he's attuned to ANY body shape he can take? Or just the one he trained with? I'm honestly fine with DMs going either way, because this is a case of TWO cases of Specific vs. General! And that's where a DM gets to step in and say which rule "makes sense" from a balance, ruling, or table expectation standpoint
#20 Apollo_Theron Oct 08, 2014 16:13:44	Timborama wrote:
(Reply to #20) 1eejit	Apollo_Theron wrote:
#22 Timborama Oct 09, 2014 5:26:29	^^^^ That Especially Land Druids. Or Moon Druids, to an extent, so they can still "off-tank" if they blow their wildshapes uber-fast
#23 DracoSuave Oct 09, 2014 14:09:13	All this talk about dipping into monk to do what Polearm Defense already does.
#24 Raez_Daevan Oct 09, 2014 17:09:17	I'm disappointed no one has made a reference to Kung Fu Panda. That being said, why not homebrew a new monk subclass? Way of the Beast or some such. It would allow something like wild-shape but be more monk-friendly. I could also see a Way of the Fury that has a bit of cross-over with Barbarian, but again fits better with the other monk abilities.
#25 Nevvur Oct 09, 2014 21:07:04	Raez_Daevan wrote:
(Reply to #23) 1eejit	DracoSuave wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Apollo_Theron

Oct 05, 2014 15:39:58

Suppose that there's a monk 1/(circle of the moon)druid 3 character which turns into a bear and at some point makes an attack action, does the character get his extra unarmed attack when making an attack action as a bear? I'm not quite sure since there seems to be ambiguity around what natural attacks are classified as, but it seems to be that natural attacks are considered to be unarmed strikes because of how a section of alter self is worded.

"Natural Weapons. You grow claws, fangs, spines,

horns, or a different natural weapon of your choice. Your
unarmed strikes deal 1d6 bludgeoning, piercing, or
slashing damage, as appropriate to the natural weapon
you chose, and you are proficient with your unarmed
strikes. Finally, the natural weapon is magic and you
have a +1 bonus to the attack and damage rolls you
make using it."

If a wild shaping monk can get the extra attack while in his wild shape form what does his extra unarmed strike attack do for damage? Since he chooses to make an unarmed strike attack does he choose to either use one of the conventional natural attacks or does he have to attack the target as if he were monk using the unarmed strike table damage?

Gruff_Ironfist

Oct 05, 2014 17:00:54

I seem to recall another forum post going into this, but I don't recall the conclusion.

That being said, DM Basic p.6:

The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the “weapon” might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike. For more information on different kinds of attacks, see the player’s D&D basic rules or the Player’s Handbook.

RCanine

Oct 05, 2014 21:22:28

Neither claw nor bite is a monk weapon, nor is it an unarmed strike. Unarmed Strike is a specific thing, not any attack with natural weapons.

That said, as DM I would allow a druid to use Unarmed Strike while wild-shaped, but that's up to the DM whether the beast's physiognomy can support that or not. It would use you monk damage die, of course.

(Reply to #3)

Nevvur

RCanine wrote:

RCanine

Oct 06, 2014 1:44:40

Nevvur wrote:

mellored

Oct 06, 2014 5:31:25

RCanine wrote:

austinmonster

Oct 06, 2014 8:43:20

The big question *I* have is weather or not they can add their impressive Wisdom to their AC in a beast shape. I would be inclined to say yes to the AC, but no to the extra attacks and such.

mellored

Oct 06, 2014 9:10:43

austinmonster wrote:

Yunru

Oct 06, 2014 11:50:49

Note that you can't pick up both Unarmored Defense, whichever one you pick first us the one you're stuck with.

#10

RCanine

Oct 07, 2014 10:31:24

mellored wrote:

#11

-ktkenshinx-

Oct 07, 2014 11:08:14

A few things on this:

1. Unarmed Strike is its own weapon attack (See the Weapons Table in the PHB). Natural Weapons are their own weapon attacks, and vary from monster to monster.

2. Multiattack is not the attack action. Multiattack is just another action that the creature can make, much like dash, disengage, hide, etc. That means you cannot use either Flurry of Blows or the bonus Martial Arts attack after making a Multiattack. Why? Because you can only use those after the Attack action, and Multiattack is its own special action type.

3. That said, monsters CAN take the attack action if they want to, using any or all of their natural weapons in the process! So if you are a Brown Bear and have Extra Attack through Monk, you can take an attack action and then hit them with a claw and a bite. Then after the attack action, you can take a Flurry of Blows, which would be 2 unarmed strikes using your unarmed strike damage die.

4. The AC abilities all function in Wild Shape form, but you need to pick which one will apply to your AC. They are not modifiers that are added as in 3.5 Edition. They are all different ways to calculate AC and you get to choose one.

#12

RCanine

Oct 07, 2014 14:57:23

-ktkenshinx- wrote:

#13

CetteHamsterLa

Oct 08, 2014 7:09:20

Yunru wrote:

(Reply to #7)

1eejit

austinmonster wrote:

#15

jonathonhawke

Oct 08, 2014 7:27:32

CetteHamsterLa wrote:

#16

-ktkenshinx-

Oct 08, 2014 8:48:19

1eejit wrote:

(Reply to #16)

1eejit

-ktkenshinx- wrote:

#18

-ktkenshinx-

Oct 08, 2014 10:06:25

1eejit wrote:

#19

Timborama

Oct 08, 2014 13:12:57

Wildshape and Unarmored Defense is a very clear case of "Specific Vs. Specific"

Which means? The DM decides. Well, with player input, of course!

Is the Barbarian getting his +AC from ANY bodily form he assumes? Or just the one he normally occupies and grew up with?

Does the Monk obtain +AC from how he's attuned to ANY body shape he can take? Or just the one he trained with?

I'm honestly fine with DMs going either way, because this is a case of TWO cases of Specific vs. General! And that's where a DM gets to step in and say which rule "makes sense" from a balance, ruling, or table expectation standpoint

#20

Apollo_Theron

Oct 08, 2014 16:13:44

Timborama wrote:

(Reply to #20)

1eejit

Apollo_Theron wrote:

#22

Timborama

Oct 09, 2014 5:26:29

^^^^

That

Especially Land Druids. Or Moon Druids, to an extent, so they can still "off-tank" if they blow their wildshapes uber-fast

#23

DracoSuave

Oct 09, 2014 14:09:13

All this talk about dipping into monk to do what Polearm Defense already does.

#24

Raez_Daevan

Oct 09, 2014 17:09:17

I'm disappointed no one has made a reference to Kung Fu Panda.

That being said, why not homebrew a new monk subclass? Way of the Beast or some such. It would allow something like wild-shape but be more monk-friendly.

I could also see a Way of the Fury that has a bit of cross-over with Barbarian, but again fits better with the other monk abilities.

#25

Nevvur

Oct 09, 2014 21:07:04

Raez_Daevan wrote:

(Reply to #23)

1eejit

DracoSuave wrote: