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| #1shintashiJun 29, 2015 9:20:16 | 5e claims the wish is the most powerful spell a mortal can cast.
What is the definition used for not-mortal?
I noticed the 33% chance of never being able to cast the wish again, but I've heard people balk at rules like alignment restrictions or character classes with taboos, aging penalties, etc., because that's against the "new philosophy"... but is hiding a bunch of new flaws in spells like Wish or Magic Jar any different? It seems like wizard hatred hiding behind the spell description section, rather than being up front in the character class section.
Can wish increase ability scores? If not, why not, and how can you claim it is the most powerful spell a wizard can cast? If it can increase ability scores, can it increase them to 20, 24 like a barbarian, or 30 like tomes? Does it increase them 1 at a time, or all at once like a belt of giant strength?
In AD&D, it used to take 10 wishes to get a stat above 17, and 20 wishes to get a stat above 20. So to go from 16 to 25, would cost 140 wishes. I've never had a problem with this, my DMs never had a problem with this. If anything, we thought being required to cast 140 wishes was probably a demonstration that Wish was weaker than advertised, definitely over sold as "the most powerful force since Grey Skull".
Wishes in 5e aren't allowed to make magic items without extra restrictions, but can make an object worth 25,000 gold pieces? That's a value high enough for most magic items. The legendary items are only 50,000 gold pieces and they can take an attribute from 8 to 29.
Wishes used to cost 50,000 gold in the DMG, plus some favor or quest. 140 wishes would be worth 7,000,000 gold pieces, plus 140 favors. the favors are approximately similar to the requirements for a boon, and attribute increasing is possible in the DMG section near boons.
The DMG has the creation of legendary magic items at much more expensive than the purchase of magic items, at 500,000 gold pieces, however, this is still well below the 7 million mark.
According to the effort and cost of the old Wishes, which were more powerful than apparent 5e wishes, you could have produced 14 legendary magic items, in addition to 140 boons for the same effort. That's not right. A character with 140 boons could solo Tiamat. You all know this is true. They would be a demigod immortal with that many boons. 30,000 XP per Boon or Equivalent? Thats the same as 2 CR 16 monsters, or one CR 21 dragon (ancient dragon is the example used). That sounds precisely like the typical favor/quest an AD&D wizard would demand in exchange for casting wish...
Except they didn't have the 33% chance of uber failure.
Something is wonky about wishes.
They should be able to increase ability scores, that should be standard.
The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect - fine so far...
In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn’t 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. - ok standard similitude to old wish...
Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress. - this is the new thing...
The new thing is what you have in place of 5 years aging, and I'm still not even sure if you can increase ability scores with it. The Average wizard is 30-40 when starting play at 1st level, possibly younger. They will clear level 18 somewhere between 2 and 20 years later, otherwise the fighers in their adventuring parties would be old and weak. Ergo, we can assume between 32 and 60 years old when they learn the wish spell. Now, assuming a human caster, with their miniscule lifeline compared with elves & dwarves, we still have an expectancy between 90 and 120, not counting any potions of longevity. Thats 6-12+ wishes, without any extraordinary life extention we expect from wizards with 3 ft long beards.
33% means on average, you are limited to 3. More accurately, it's a 1d3, with an average of 2 wishes.
This doesn't seem balanced to me. Wish needs to be able to at least vaguely attempt to mimic a tome or manual, and there needs to be an alternative "the DM hates you" price list to the 33% backlash.
And by all the gods in the PHB Appendix, don't tell me "You're the DM, you can just rule it however you like". That just creates so many arguments between so many different DMs that it's actually cheaper for them to just stop buying 5e products and revert to older systems.
Wishes are an integral part of High level play. They should be ruled more like Boons, or with Boons in mind, and not automatically used as a way for DMs to punish players for choosing Wizard...
Cause that's all it is. It's the DM being told to beat the players over the head with a book for choosing wizard instead of some other class that can do way more for way less.
Look at the barbarian. When they hit 20th level (in addition to Boon Access) they get +8 to stats, increasing two stats past 20. Meanwhile, the wizard, has about 2 wishes to produce non magical items or get a reroll that mimics a level 2 Diviner ability.
That's just not even remotely balanced. That's Hate.
Aladdin wasn't a popular story because there was a blue arabian demon cracking jokes. It was popular because of Wish. Why does 5th edition have to treat wish like it's being cast by this evil guy from wishmaster? I'm not even sure i'm allowed to link this, if not have a Mod delete it: |
| #2AaronOfBarbariaJun 29, 2015 9:42:49 | You are, in general, wrong about wish.
The 5th edition version is more powerful, and has less drawbacks, than the prior edition versions of the spell.
As for wish being able to increase ability scores, it certainly could - but that is in the realm of what the spell can do only if the DM wants it to, might be twisted in some way if it does work, and risks never being able to cast wish again. But it is also worth noting that there is less "need" for wish to change ability scores since they improve in other ways, unlike in some prior editions. |
| #3Thoughts_My_AimJun 29, 2015 10:16:29 |
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| #4jaelisJun 29, 2015 10:50:42 | If you do get an item like a ring of wishes, or if a genie offers you one, then you don't have to worry about the burnout risk. So that lets you have fun with wishes without letting be an every day occurence. |
| #5shintashiJun 29, 2015 12:52:24 | I do not believe a constructive discussion of this topic is possible. The paradigms are too different. Here's some points, which you should all disagree with. 1. wizards are the mechanics and engineers of D&D. Anything as powerful as a zeplin, tank or A-Bomb is built by them, even if we want to call them Enchanted Mounts, Magic Items or Artifacts. 9 out of 10 times, the wizard is making a device for someone else to use, so the complaining about wizard vs. others doesn't make sense. 2. the wicked ruling of wishes as a default is not actually how wishes always worked. I point to the Wujen wish for an example. 3. Attribute improvement has traditionally been a part of Wish structure balanced in advance, only recently has it been removed, along with Permanency spells and similar effects. 4. genies dont have wish anymore. The DM has to add wishes through fiat to their portfolio of powers.
Something I've noticed. The Wizard has largely been gutted, torn into multiple classes, chunks redistributed to non wizard classes and races, and their key power cap has continued to go down.
Now, this would be fine, i suppose, to admit the new wizard generally sucks. But thats not entirely true. They have been given resampled cookie powers to make them happy, after their main functions have been removed and given to the DM's NPC fiat. This is a bit similar to stealing someone's savings and then rewarding them with a plate of snacks. The DM is basically acting like the Villains from the Batman storyline, robbing Bruce Wayne of his inheritance and spending it on the construction of monsters and doomsday machines. This is terrible.
The traditional Wizard is dead. |
| #6Thoughts_My_AimJun 29, 2015 13:02:30 | As you say, I don't think a productive discussion is really possible here.
Your point 1 is meaningless. I genuinely don't understand what it brings to the discussion at all.
Point 2 is simply a disagreement over tradition. I would argue that a very explicit focus on the wording of wishes has always been a big part of D&D. Hell, it's always been a big part of the wish narrative in general. There's a reason that "be careful what you wish for" is a thing.
Point 3. Attribute improvement has varied a lot throughout the editions. 5E finally brings back Attribute-overwriting magic items, for example. I'd also point out that if we're being super-traditional, there wasn't even an assumption that you'd get to the level where you can cast 9th level spells. But either way, you're arguing from an is to an ought here. Explain to me why it is important for Wizards to be given an arbitrary, permanent Attribute-raising power in this edition.
As for point 4. Genies don't get wishes by default. I don't think they did in 3.X either. I ... don't understand why this is remotely an issue. I don't even understand why you care.
Are you honestly claiming that the removal of one function from one spell, cast at a level that most genuinely old-school games would never even reach really means that "the traditional wizard is dead"? I think we might need to invent a new word, because "hyperbole" doesn't even cut it. |
| #7Thoughts_My_AimJun 29, 2015 13:15:42 | Also, I thought I'd check out your claims about the Wish spell in earlier editions. Here is its full text from 1st Edition AD&D:
The wish spell is a more potent version of a limited wish (q.v.). If it is used to alter reality with respect to hit points sustained by a party, to bring a dead character to life, or to escape from a difficult situation by lifting the spell caster (and his or her party) from one place to another, it will not cause the magic user any disability. Other forms of wishes, however, will cause the spell caster to be weak (-3 on strength) and require 2 to 8 days of bed rest due to the stresses the wish places upon time, space, and his or her body. Regardless of what is wished for the exact terminology of the wish spell is likely to be carried through . (This discretionary power of the referee is necessary in order to maintain game balance. As wishing another character dead would be grossly unfair, for example, your DM might well advance the spell caster to a future period where the object is no longer alive, i.e. putting the wishing character out of the campaign).
The Limited Wish spell also includes this caveat:
Greedy desires will usually end in disaster for the wisher.
It is true that the 2E DMG includes some guidance on ways in which wishes can be used to raise Ability scores but, as other posters have pointed out, that was before regular Ability Score bonuses were baked into the system. Again, you seem to consider it unjust that wizards no longer have exclusive control over a method of character advancement. |
| #8shintashiJun 29, 2015 13:29:51 | the fact that genies dont have wish, makes it difficult not to argue the importance of the Wizard wish is increased. If you don't use wishes in your campaign, obviously this conversation is foreign. If you only know back to 3rd ed wishes, it will be alien.
Obviously none of you are familiar with the Oriental Adventures 1st edition Wujen wish.
but that's not my main argument. My argument is whether swapping out 5 years of aging for a 33% permanent loss of ability is equal. It isn't, unless it can be mitigated.
So the next question:
Can the 33% be mitigated? Such as through divination spells?
All the divination spells appear to be oriented around advantage, d20s, and ability checks. Are there divination spells that can modify the effects of a % check? |
| #9Thoughts_My_AimJun 29, 2015 13:39:51 |
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| #10melloredJun 29, 2015 20:49:17 | ability scores don't need to increase like they did in 3.x. you couldn't fight the big bads without a 30+ stat. |
| #11OrethalionJun 29, 2015 20:52:33 |
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| #12OrethalionJun 29, 2015 21:56:57 |
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| #13shintashiJun 29, 2015 22:36:28 | Either the 33% needs to be mitigated, or or needs to be swappable. It is either too mean or too lenient depending on who you deal with. Some people average like a 63 on a %, some tend to roll abysmally. People say it's luck, others call it weighted dice, some say it's cheating. Point is, the way it is written, some people are going to get 1 wish and others are going to get 20. I've rolled enough 2nd edition Magic Resistance checks to know this is the case.
Proposals for alternatives:
Here's some truths to look at though, that I acknowledge. 1. tarrasque no longer needs a wish to be slain, as far as i know. 2. several creatures, like the pit fiend and solar no longer have wish 3. you now only need to be level 17, not 18 to cast wish 4. wish is no longer required to solve nearly as many special effect conditions, approximately 4 spells from the PHB, 9 conditions found in the Monster Manual, and 10 conditions in the DMG.
That being said, there are about 23 conditions that require either a 17th level Cleric or a wish spell to overcome just in the core books. Far more than half of those can only be resolved with a Wish.
People say the old campaigns didn't use wishes very often. I think that depends on where you live, and what campaign styles your groups used. Wishes were pretty ubiquitous in our campaigns no matter who was DMing, and as soon as players could afford or cast them, they came into play. Some people near where i lived never got past level 5 in any campaign, but others cleared 20s or 30s without a hitch. The Necromancer's handbook demonstrated how Wish could be used to extend the life of humans - a real essential for Campaigns like Council of Wyrms or an Elven heavy game where generations pass through the centuries.
Wishes were also used to mitigate unfortunate events, or solve problems like Duel Classing, Multiclassing, or changing character Race. Also for doing things like reversing curses brought on by magic items. Many magic item shops had girdles of sex change sold side by side girdles of giant strength. DMs also frequently made the argument that it didn't matter if you had horrible stats, because Wishes could be used to fix them later on. We rarely wanted wish for the sake of casting wish. We still laugh at the notion that the Wish is the most powerful spell a character can cast. Versatile, sure, but not powerful. Wish for example, couldn't grant you Titan strength. It couldn't make you the Goddess of Fire or Magic. It pretty much couldn't do any of those things you see it do in the Aladdin movies. I mean, sure, esoteric magic items could probably give you titan strength, and some series of spells not including wish would likely make them. Even polymorph used correctly could do it. Karsus' Avatar could in theory make you the Goddess of Fire, or Magic, but wish couldn't. The Avangion Ritual is probably outside the scope of wish.
I think Wish should be workshopped to operate like Boons, Lesser and Greater.
I think any magic item below 25,000 gp shouldn't be a problem. If it is below this threshold, the wish should be able to create it without negative consequences (DMG 129: Rare items or less). If it is above 25,000 but below 50,000 (very rare), the wish probably teleports an existing item to the player character, likely with it's owners coming for it. If the item is worth over 50,000 (DMG 135), the player character is likely teleported to the item, where ever that might be, such as a dragon's horde or a demon prince's treasure vault (legendary items).
I would like to see Wish have some more solid rules related to what it can grant, and using the boon guidelines and the item prices i've listed above seem like they might work well.
the old 5 years aging wasn't so bad because of potions of longevity and elixers of youth. There were even spells below 9th level that could extend life. Other techniques like magic jar were also available. These are mitigators - they make the suck of aging not so bad, so while people don't want to cast wish, they know they can if they have to, if they are willing to quest an extra bit to compensate for the lost years through age extension or restoration processes.
That 33% is just flat. I know a lot of people who wouldn't respond well to a single die roll crushing their character's opportunity to overcome problems permanently. 23 incidents isn't as many as AD&D, but its way too frequent for a 1 shot fail. I know many of you don't agree, but some of us who remember needing - not just wanting - wishes, would rather a more reliable method exist. |
| (Reply to #11)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #15Byakugan01Jun 30, 2015 5:39:32 | You missed the part where a wizard with Simulacrum and Wish get to cast infinite wishes with no cost or drawbacks.
Seems pretty powerful to have resistance to all damage, immunity to every spell or magical effect you want to be, time-reversal contingencies for any event that you don't like, an extra-planar clone army sitting in a demi-plane for when u need them, a heal spell for your entire party every round, free unlimited resurrections, etc...etc...etc...
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| #16Byakugan01Jun 30, 2015 5:41:14 | Oh, and a spelbooks with 100 levels of spells scribed in them are non-magical and worth the cost of a spellbook...just sayin'. |
| #17OrethalionJun 30, 2015 6:01:46 |
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| #18OrethalionJun 30, 2015 6:03:04 |
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| #19LilikaJun 30, 2015 7:29:58 |
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| #20NoctaemJun 30, 2015 8:03:15 |
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| (Reply to #17)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #22shintashiJun 30, 2015 9:53:49 | i made some errors in my last post. Here are the corrections.
The 23 conditions? They are there.
Let me pull some randomly.
Spells that Demand Wish or high level Clerics to Fix Disintegrate Divine Word Feeblemind Geas
Honorable Mention Mind Blank - actually over powers wish... so 8th level Mind Blank is technically the most powerful spell a Wizard can cast, not 9th level Wish.
Monster Attacks/Conditions that Demand Wish or Specific Spells to Overcome Intellectual Devourer: Body Thief Lycanthropes: Curse of Lycanthropy Spirit Naga: Rejuvenation (the Tarrasque used to have something like this) Guardian Naga: Rejuvenation Revenant: Rejuvenation Slaad: Control Gem Blue Slaad: Claw Infection Sphinx: 10 year Time Change Vampire: Curse of Vampirism
DMG Campaign Conditions/Items that Require Wish or Similar to Fix Fey Wild: Time Warp Carceri: Prison Plane Daern's Instant Fortress: Repair Cost Deck of Many Things: Donjon Deck of Many Things: Rogue Deck of Many Things: Void - partially over powers wish, but one condition solved using a wish Sovereign Glue: Breaking the Bond Blackrazor: Devour Soul Sword of Kas: Destroying it - with help from other artifacts Charms (any of them): Removal
Some of these scenarios are high level, some of them are low level. Some you would only need if your party was evil, or trying to sabotage a villain or their personal effects. Some are conditions you would expect from tools bought at a hardware store. Also be aware that any monster that is capable of casting any of those spells listed, like a beholder or other abberration using disintegrate, that also increases the frequency of the need for Wishes... or new character sheets.
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| #23Slagger_the_ChuulJun 30, 2015 10:41:11 |
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| #24shintashiJun 30, 2015 13:52:42 |
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| (Reply to #23)randl |
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| #26OrethalionJun 30, 2015 18:33:20 |
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| (Reply to #26)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #28ivstinJun 30, 2015 19:52:34 | So, mostly because I have a player who is asking to do this, I'm asking:
Thoughts on Simulacrum and Wish?
I'm listening because... Simulacrum. |
| (Reply to #28)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #30OrethalionJun 30, 2015 21:13:54 |
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| #31OrethalionJun 30, 2015 21:17:03 |
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| #32Slagger_the_ChuulJun 30, 2015 23:52:31 |
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| #33shintashiJul 01, 2015 0:59:28 | Ok, the simulacarum spell can almost (i double checked) be abused beyond what is necessary to rebalance the wish. With it, you are spending essentially casting A + 1 slot + money to produce, hypothetically, 1 wish.
The notion that the spell can create innumerable sims seems limited by the following expression: If you cast this spell again, any currently
So this is the inheritence problem for programmers. You created the sim with this spell, so the sim creating a sim would cause itself to disappear; if it doesnt, and if the Sim creates a sim, it will be at half the sim's hit points. We can assume no caster may have less than 1 hit point, therefore, 100, sim#1 50hp, sim#2 25hp, down to 1hp then it stops. However A duplicate of you with a spent 7th level slot doesnt get the slot back, so at 17-19th level, you can have 1 similacarum, and at 20th level, 2 simulacrums. - you are copying a wizard who doesnt remember that particular spell anymore. Since items can't duplicate, the rare stuff that gives more 7th level spells - if any - doesn't apply.
However, the question about wish wording:
Finally, there is a 33 percent
Now the wish side effects are based on the caster. So we have to determine of the Proxy caster, a Sim, is you, or is itself. If the Sim is you, it should have identical properties - like a temporal duplicate, is still you. However, there are functions that indicate the Sim is actually different. First,
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half
second
The simulacrum lacks the
Finally
The duplicate is a creature, partially
I have never cast this spell before, but I'm loving this spell. It costs 1500 gold, and has a 12 hour ritual, and it only gets to cast spells you already have once. It has half the hit points, and will do whatever you ask, but appears to be friendly, indicating it has some kind of personality. I assume a wizard at level 20 would have a Con of about 14 (+2) and average 100 hit points, so the sim would have like, 50 hit points. At 100 gold per hit point to repair any damage it suffers, it can cost up to 50,000 gold to repair. That's similar to the Legendary item sale price (not creation price), and identical to the price in the 2e DMG for having someone else cast wish for you.
Optional Ways to Make it Suck More Frankly, this is really close, but not quite sucky enough, although loopholes are inherently lacking in suck. So to balance the suck out a bit, what you can do, is rule the wishes following some of the standards I suggested before - low level magic item = summoned to your SIM's location but also probably hostile for the theft. high level magic item teleports you or the Sim to the treasure horde where the item is kept, putting you in dangerous situations.
To add one extra layer of suck, you can have some of the wishes that would 'destroy' the simulacarum cause them to explode violently like a Broken Staff of the Magi, or otherwise doing something similar to 10d10 necrotic or force damage. You could also use one of the other paradox magic item explosions, like Rod of Cancellation, Sphere of Annihilation, Portable Hole, Bag of Holding type mixed explosions, depending on how much backlash the normal caster would expect, or how horribly worded the wish is. My basic thinking on this, is many Wishes won't matter that much, like Curing a Werewolf or Unsticking Sovereign/Super Glue that was used to "bedazzle" a cheap crown with expensive gems. So no exploding Wormhole Gates to the 9 hells required. But if you are like trying to Time Warp a Demon Lord or Summon a Deity or Blow up an Artifact, by all means, treat the Sim as a bad magic item interaction that goes terribly wrong. Being anywhere near them is possibly fatal (or banished to another plane, etc.).
This is my interpretation on the ruling of this combo. I prefer the Potions/Spells of Longevity + Wishes that Age, But 12 hour casting time 1500-50,000gp Simulacrum + Wishes that Nullify works about the same.
Especially if you don't know when you will need the wish. So you have this "back up sim" wandering around or whatever, losing hit points here and there and then the "maintenance cost" starts to rack up closer to that 50,000 gp.
Question? Hey, I just thought of something. Can't you just Shapeshift into a higher CR genie that gets 3 wishes or so per year, and then their drawback is 1 year waiting period between recasts? Or is that a lair or legendary action? |
| #34Slagger_the_ChuulJul 01, 2015 2:01:23 |
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| #35OrethalionJul 01, 2015 6:12:01 |
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| #36jaelisJul 01, 2015 7:07:31 |
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| #37Slagger_the_ChuulJul 01, 2015 7:20:55 |
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| #38Slagger_the_ChuulJul 01, 2015 7:26:34 |
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| #39Thoughts_My_AimJul 01, 2015 7:33:47 |
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| #40shintashiJul 01, 2015 8:26:35 | I think we have successfully cast Shift Blame from Wish to Simulacrum. It does appear to be able to cast 8th and 9th level spells if the creature it duplicates can. However, pay close attention. The range is touch and the casting time is 12 hours, so we are talking about hospital surgery/lab conditions. Being in the game with another 17th level wizard willing to chill out for 12 straight hours like they are getting their portrait painted requires a level of trust or compulsion that essentially means the party already has an 17th level wizard. For example, if you have a Wizard, a Warlock, a Barbarian, and a Cleric in the party, the Barbarian and Warlock might go into a Bar, and get a rival wizard into a drinking contest, then "volunteer" to drag the sleeping 17th level wizard up to the sleeping chambers. Zip bang "create thrall" 14th level Warlock now has a 17th level meat puppet. The meat puppet can then be commanded to "lie still" for the 12 hour Sim spell of the party's 14th level wizard. The Warlock could then release the hangover wizard and find some other meat puppet humanoid for their control. So yeah, you can pull off some level variation, but it looks like it still takes team work.
Simulacrum definitely terminates quickly when trying to create an infinite army. First, you need someone else to cast it, so it actually terminates as soon as one of you runs out of 7th level slots, which there's a max of 2. So if the kidnapped wizard above were to try casting it, or their simulacrum cast it on themselves, they would produce 1 extra Sim. Since Sims can't rememorize new spell slots, the sim total is always only 1-2 times the number of 17th level wizards available, sort of. I think it's possible for different casters to clone the same wizard, so if you had a 17th level wizard to copy, and then the simulacrum copied THAT wizard rather than themselves, I could see how the infinity loop might appear, except the wizard they keep copying would have to keep waiting 12 hours, and you could impose a 1 step exhaustion penalty, so that the 6th copy would kill the original. You could also rule that two exact copies cause the creation of the second to be destroyed, or two exact copies casting the spell are still 'you' relative to each other.
See, I argued earlier than "you" who suffers the 33% backlash is whoever casts the wish, as long as they weren't literally statistically identical. I mentioned the 50% hit points and Snow as evidence that the Simulacrum is NOT you, it is a snow man with half your hit points and limitations you don't have, it just has similar spells. This is fundamentally important to this next ruling...
Suppose a person isn't making Simulacrums of Simulacrums. Suppose instead there are two Simulacrum casters. the first, a copy created by the 14th level wizard, and the second, a copy created by the first simulacrum. This is the part that locks it. The second simulacrum created by the first simulacrum, in copying a third party twice, has produced two identical snow men with identical hit points. In fact, a third attempt to copy would produce identical simulacrums including spell slots, which, from the perspective of the Simulacrum, is "You" twice. Therefore, one of the previous simulacrums explodes.
a)14th level caster b)17th level caster c)17th level sim 50% hp d)17th level sim d explodes c if it copies b, if c copies itself, it makes e and d does not exist e)17th level sim 25% hp, no longer has sim spell
Here i see a max of 2 sims using a third party, or 1 sim at 17th level if you cast it on yourself. Each sim or wizard can only be copied once by the same caster, so there is actually a pretty solid limit (like 2, or 3 at 20th level) unless you already have an army of wizards to copy.
8th level Clone is another work around - you could create a clone, then cast Wish, then keep casting spells until you "die", at which point your soul transfers your abilities to the clone. Since the clone you hasn't suffered any stress at all (the 33% fail is related to the stress and necrotic damage risks to the body), it has never suffered the stress necessary to trigger the 33%, so every 120 days, a Wizard can Clone themselves, cast wish, and repeat. There are about 365 days in years, and 3 clones takes 360 days to cast, so Clone + Wish = 3 wishes/year, same as high level Genies (monster Manual page 144).
A 17th level Wizard can turn a level 12 Fighter into a CR 12 Archmage who can cast Wish, using True Polymorph, because of the funny CR-level phraseology, although some astute DMs might require the fighter to first get to 17th level...despite the parity of CR:level.
I think what these are, are different Specialist approaches to Wish. We have the Illusionist approach, the Necromancer Approach, and the Transmuter Approach. Presummably, the Conjurer (who has wish) could also use Gate + Contact other plane and petition some wish granting entity in exchange for a Gate passage - since some of the Planar rules are setup so that unless a prime material wizard opens a gate or summons them, they aren't allowed to travel to the Prime with their own magic. This tradition gives the Summoner/Conjurer a lot of leverage, although I'm not sure these planar conditions and restrictions on outer/lower planar creatures still exist.
Can anyone answer a ruling on that? Can a Conjurer Coax a powerful Extraplanar into granting a Wish in exchange for Opening a Gate?
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| #41Slagger_the_ChuulJul 01, 2015 7:59:55 |
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| #42OrethalionJul 01, 2015 22:24:05 |
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| #43Byakugan01Jul 02, 2015 5:00:48 | People still aren't understanding how the simulacrum chain works.
Caster A has a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell slot available.
Step 1. Cast Simulacrum on yourself, making a copy of you with an 8th and 9th slot remaining.
Have the simulacrum use his Wish to wish for 25,000 gold pieces of 'simulacrum fuel'. Then he casts simulacrum again on the ORIGiNaL wizard, who still has an 8th and 9th slot available. Each simulacrum can make a single copy of the original caster, over and over again. Rinse/repeat. Every few copies wishes for another 25000 gold and the net gain is infinite wishes, infinite gold, and all the other stuff.
The whole 'simulacrum counts as you' line of logic is very flawed. What if you use simulacrum to Copy another spellcaster with Wish, say Elminster, then have it use the other persons Wish. Congratulations you just made it so Elminster can't cast wish ever again. Plus a million other problems where effects radiate out from 'you' when u use spells.
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| #44OrethalionJul 02, 2015 6:16:02 |
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| #45Slagger_the_ChuulJul 02, 2015 7:42:08 |
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| #46shintashiJul 02, 2015 13:48:53 | it's still +1 sim per 12 hours max and you needing the cooperation of a wizard who both has simulacrum and wish. It's a lot of work, and since most people are only active 16 hours a day, you really are only getting 4 hours back. Elves who can do long rests with a 4 hour meditate already have that advantage, so calling it infinite this or that is just bull.
Wouldnt it be easier to shapeshift into a monster capable of thumping adult dragons for their hordes, than spending all month making snow clones with a drone archmage? I think i would rather be counting my new gold pieces and magic items, than worrying about my snow supply. Using wish for wealth, or a loop hole to get wish for wealth doesn't seem cost effective. I like duck tape and multitools but despite the many uses - they aren't icecream cones or a wallet full of fat stacks. Some spells you will cast because you have to, during an emergency. Some spells you will cast because you want to. Dont mix duck tape and icecream. |
| #47AaronOfBarbariaJul 02, 2015 19:50:30 | Going the route of casting simulacrum normally with the costly component and 12 hour casting time isn't the abusive combo - too much can go wrong or be interfered with. The abuse that needed adressed is having a simulacrum duplicate casting simulacrum with wish so there is no time needed, costly component, or what not. Which is addressed by limiting simulacrum to 1 per caster, and treating all simulacrums as the same caster as their original. |