Hey folks!
I recently had a discussion with an acquaintance of mine about taking one level in fighter, then multiclassing the rest of the way as a wizard. Effectively, this would create a wizard with an AC of 18 in plate (I'm assuming you can't use a shield if you're casting spells with somatic components?)
While he feels that this arrangement would be unbalanced because everyone would supposedly play that class instead of being pure fighters or wizards, I don't agree. I see plenty of reasons to play a wizard, such as the fact that a wizard can use Bracers of Defence, Mage Armor, and can add his/her dex bonus to his/her AC. In addition, the pure wizard gets more spells earlier and is able to sneak. On the other hand, fighters get cool features at 3rd level, so taking only one level in fighter doesn't seem as OP as he makes it out to be.
While I explained to him how these things mitigate the effect of a boosted AC, is there something that I've missed? He remains of the opinion that the fighter/wizard discourages playing a pure class. He also thinks wizards in plate should be something that's attainable at higher levels (like it would have been through prestige classes in 3.5). Then again, I would imagine that no 2nd level character is going to have full plate mail.
So, I personally don't see a problem here but my acquaintance won't believe me. Are there any people here who might've gone through every possible loophole in fighter/wizard multiclassing? What do you guys think?
Well, it delays your stat boosts, you miss out on the capstone ability, and you will have less spell slots.
Also, you will have to make a tough choice of getting strength to avoid the movement penalty (if desired), if you focus on int you will probably start level 1 as a pretty garbage fighter.
Also, because of save profiencies, your fighter/wizard has good STR and CON saves, which means easily charmed, befuddled, or whatever else you would expect to not happen to a wizard..
Honestly the MC rules are pretty good in tis regard.
Pretty much what Alynn says. You absolutely *can* take a level of Fighter for heavy armour but you'll still be on D6 Hit Dice and want to stay out of melee *anyway* so I'm not completely certain it's as OP as you think. Certainly I don't think it's worth giving up a level of spellcasting for.
AC is definitely not enough to be OP, especially with all the drawbacks Alynn just listed. Some MCs might be really good, but I think for the most part we've got a great rule set there. (I just kind of miss hybrid classes from 4th a little.)
Alynn wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Hell, if you're going to MC into anything for AC from Wizard, Barbarian is more thematic and less MAD than Fighter (lets you stay in robes AND you only have to focus on Int and Con (which naturally you'd already be doing)). And you can stick a shield on it. Heavy Armor might be better if you don't invest anything into Dex, but everyone loves Init so who does that?
Alynn wrote:
Sorxores wrote:
Not to mention the more effective heavy armors have their own strength requirements (15 for Splint and Plate).
Yunru wrote:
Yeah, but the OP's not really talking about heavy armor, since a fighter multi-class wouldn't get you it in the first place. The AC 18 quoted assumes a Breastplate wearing Wizard with a 14+ Dex and a shield.
in fact the only way to get Heavy Armor in a multiclass is as a cleric with the appropriate domain.
Walstafa wrote:
Walstafa wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Walstafa wrote:
Oh if he's starting out a different class then Barbarian's still better. Focus on Dex and Int, secondary Con, have high Init, Finesse weapons and a high AC. Then MC Wizard 4 life.
onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:
Better to take a level of cleric. Then you don't loose spell slots, and keep your Wis save. (Though fighter's extra +1 AC isn't bad).
Also, you could be a mountain dwarf wizard. Start with 14 dex and medium armor, boost Int and Con and you'll be tanky.
All an all, it's optimal, but not not really game breaking.
Walstafa wrote:
Walstafa wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
I'm wondering if going 5 level into Eldritch Knight isn't a better proposition. Get a better starting base of HP Some spell progression to dump on top of your wizard levels and the second attack per action plus adrenaline surge to get even more.
Still be more focused for spellcasting by the end but I feel like if you're gonna dip you should at least go deep enough to get some of the classes cool stuff.
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
I can see Bards and Eldritch Knights receiving special training (as well as not having access to the most powerful magics). But splashing a level of Fighter to get the heavy armour proficiency stinks of munchkin.
I should note right now that I really, really hate "splashing" and the whole "build" concept beyond choosing options within the class you chose at character creation. It's one thing to, at a later level, decide you'd like to try another class. It's another to map your build from level 1 to level 20. You want to do that, step away from my table and go back to DDO. That said, I adore the idea of a character waking up one morning with wild surges going on all around her and starting her Sorceror career.
/rant
My answer to such a player - it hasn't come up at my table yet, thank heaven - is "Should you wish to cast arcane spells and wear heavy armour, start with Fighter and choose the Eldritch Knight option at Fighter Level 3." I'm making that clear to my players. If you want to change class, fine. Have a darn good, non-metagame reason for it.
Cheers,
Bob
Gungolphus wrote:
Gungolphus wrote:
Gungolphus wrote:
onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:
CetteHamsterLa wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
I always try to keep the character's perspective in play. The character doesn't know he's a 5th level Fighter. He knows that he has spent a long time, slowly, gaining skills and tricks that he can do with weapons. When they level up, its not a "Eureka!" moment, its a representation of the gradual increase in skill and power that come with hard work and study. It's not like when he get's to 6th, he says to himself "Fighter Steve....today you become....Fighter slash Rogue Steve...what a great day!" When he gets that 6th level, and takes it in Rogue, then he has finally done some research on underhanded combat tactics, scouting, and some research on how those locks on chests work that he's too tired to smash now. It's a slow evolution of character. I can see lots of class changes being the evolution of concept.
A Drow studies under a Drow martial arts master. He practices in the dark, trains in the dark, and adopts their fighting style. His progression in this leads him to practice more underhanded tactics, weak points and pressure points, where vitals are located, he accepts the Way of the Dark and digs deeper. He stares at it in his studies until it starts to stare back, making deals with him about the limitless potential The Dark can offer him. If game terms, that's not just a Monk, that's a slow development of a Monk (Shadow)/ Rogue (Assassin)/ Warlock or Cleric. His career and skill set is going to change with his experiences.
On the splash front: there's plenty of RP reasons for various classes being mixed in for a single character.
As for gishes, they're a common enough sight in various editions. Wearing heavy armor in 5e isn't such an issue with bounded accuracy. I'd be leery of walking around in 5e melee with Wizard HP anyway. 
onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:
In an earlier edition I selected rogue as my first class for my human noble who then took fighter at second. He'd spent his time crawing the alleys of the city gambling, drinking, and generally being a lout, but later reformed and started to walk the straight and narrow a bit more, focusing on his martial training.
That's a 100% legit RP reason for being a mechanically advantageous combination.
Does it matter if the chicken (build) or egg (RP concept) comes first, so long as both exist?
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
That was my point, yes. The game is a roleplaying game, but the fact that some people play it as a rollplaying game as well shouldn't be some kind of fact which wounds anyone's pretty little soul.
I tend to mix and match. I like mechanical neatness, and I love in-depth characters. I usually put the pieces together at the same time. Story and mechanics together.
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
I agree with your friend. If armor was not OP then why not just allow mage armor to equal plate armor upon reaching certain character levels and a one time cost of gold for components? Mages would not need dexterity as mage armor could be equal to heavy armor and grant an AC bonus from 6 to 8. Since character movement is not slowed by heavy armor in 5E there really is no penalty except for disadavantage on stealth checks. I think it would be a fair trade off for a precious spell slot.
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
There's no longer any real need to customize a character, mechanically, so far as I can tell. I'm wondering why bother?
The real solution here, if you want to prove it's not broken, is to let him do it. Then watch as one of the following happens:
a) He stays out of melee combat as much as a wizard should, thus negating the entire reason he's wearing the heavy armor to start with, or
b) He wades into melee with his heavy armor, gets hit anyway, and gets destroyed due to his wizard hit points.
Yes I do! I mean, take the character I'm currently playing. She's a fighter. I could be the boring same-old same-old "I smash things" fighter, but instead, thanks to feats rather than dipping I'll admit but eh, I dual wield hand crossbows. Like a badass.
Could I do that just playing the class? I guess maybe if I took thrown weapons and really refluffe them hard.
I'm also dipping into Barbarian for AC. Why? So I can totes be naked :P
And then there's the fact that I've got her planned from 1 to 20. Why? So I don't have to do it later.
She's also taking a few levels in rogue. You know, because she's a scout. :P
I heard this complaint in the Spoony review of 5e, and honestly I don't see the problem. Especially for Heavy Armor, where you need a minimum strength score to not lose out on movement. Which then mean that Strength can't be a dump stat. So you would need a Str of 15 for full plate, that's pretty high. Seems a lot of people don't realize what the Str requirement means.
The X level that they have attained in their chosen field is completly a social construct and measure of power that may happen to align with landmarks in the class structure. Your mileage may vary, but I don't know that wizard colleges hand out diplomas when someone casts Fireball, because...well, they must be a 5th level Wizard by then. They may have a measure of power that they can attribute to certain spellcasting tests, but that's coincidence. Wizard, is by fair the easiest comparison there.
Everyone else's abilities are harder to guage without a clear metric like that. In fighting, and in music, changes and Eureka moments happen, I think I mispoke, I don't think they happen in the same way that leveling happens in DnD. Couldn't do a good clean wrap shot against a left handed opponent for a while. Their sword and elbow would always get in my way, and eventually, I finally got him, but that doesn't blanketly apply to all left handed fighters I encounter. It also doesn't mean that I can do major combinations with a snap shot against that one left handed fighter either, just that I mastered that small piece.
Playing a melody with one hand on a piano and playing the harmony with the other hand seperately is one step towards learning to play together. When your brain has time to process that information and practice from rest, you make leaps in ability. However, after a bender of piano rehearsal you're not going to pick up any simple two hand piece and you're off to the races. Sure, you know how to play that one piece with both hands together, but you have a long way to go for anything else. Those are small Eureka moments building towards larger skills that happen over a vast amount of time and practice. In DnD, they happen immediately. Couldn't teleport through shadows on Tuesday, can on Wednesday. That sort fo power seems like it would follow the same model, Can I teleport a couple feet? Inches? Do I start with an object? Do I port halfway across the world and now I need to learn refinement? Nope, took a nap, know how to cast Meteor Swarm.
My suggestion wasn't meant to be "This sort of thing doesn't happen." I revise: "This sort of thing doesn't happen to this extreme." I hear you, picked up my AD&D 2nd ed book from a book store in 1990. I've played every interation of the game and many others besides. Some are going to mix and match because they want the best stuff. Some are going to stick with one class to get the best stuff. Sometimes people have multiclass options because it fits the concept of the character they have in their head. All of these are valid.
EDIT: There were so many Kits and classes in 2nd if you had a bunch of books, that it would take you a looooooooooooooooooooong time before you ran out of concepts and each of those had some slightly different mechanics to make it feel worthwhile. (Bladesinger, Merchant Mage, Death Priest, Spy, Barber, Dreamwalker) With 1 book out now, people are looking for good flavorful ways to bring their concepts to life. When we're ten years from now, and each class has 10 paths, you'll see a lot less of that.
Yunru wrote:
Setzer_G wrote:
Gungolphus wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Setzer_G wrote:
Especially with Multiclassing, you have to plan your build. Even if it's just to the degree of "What am I willing to give up from Class X to get more stuff from Class Y".
Yunru wrote:
Actually there's no prerequisite to multiclassing *out* of a class. Multiclassing into Wizard requires an Int of 13+, but that's hardly a hard hardship is it now? :P
Yunru wrote:
Woah. O.o Totally missed that. That would make the fighter more appealling.
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
It boils down to 2 kinds of playstyles;
1) Combat min/max to make your character as powerful as they can be.
and
2) Roleplay (does multiclassing make sense for my character's story/personality?)
5th edition is designed to accomodate both kinds of play, and does it very well. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the backgrounds appease the #2 croud without multiclassing (My wizard who is devoted to Oghma took the Acolyte background and the Magic Initiate feat to give him the 'feel' of a priest without taking a level of cleric)
To say that either player is playing the "Wrong game" is a slap in the face to the game itself. D&D has its origins in fantasy combat simulation before it became a roleplaying game. It's about encorporating both playstyles in a way that is fun for everyone.
I have yet to see a combination of classes and feats that is so vastly superior to everything else that it unbalances the game. Thus, I believe 5th edition is the best balance between styles 1 and 2 so far. I"m seriously hoping that the splatbooks don't ruin it (as they did for 4e)
Gungolphus wrote:
Gungolphus wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Gungolphus wrote:
As much as everything in D&D is down to the whim and judgement of the DM (you can change as much as you like in the game you're running, providing you still have some players willing to play with you.)
it's interesting that they make a distinct point at the start of page 163 to say that for both multiclassing and feats are optional sets of rules and
[quote]Your DM decides whether these options are available in a campaign.[/quote]
There technically is no difference between this and any other rule, but it goes along way in people's perceptions of what is “fair” for the DM to change or reject.
The reality being I expect multiclassing to be a option in most games, whether players choose to use them.
Personally I think they've done a really good job with addressing the problems that the awesomely flexible multiclassing in 3.XE brought.
However, I have noticed that the Cleric throws up some problems, a lot more IMO than the Fighter.
Firstly it gives a ton of options at first level, 3 cantrips, 1+WIS mod. Spells prepared + 2 from your domain and of course 1 level's worth of full spellcasting.
Now: If you choose to dip into one level of cleric, then the table on pag. 164 clearly shows you get the following proficiencies: Light Armours, Medium Armours, Shields.
But chiefly “Divine Domain” is a class feature, so you get it if you multiclass into cleric after level 1.
However some domains grant extra proficiencies (martial weapons, heavy armour ) as part of the Divine Domain special feature.
-
Do these count as “starting proficiencies” - hence you don't get them?
-
Or are they merely part of a class feature so you do?
This would mean that you can actually get Heavy Armour proficiency by multiclassing into one level of cleric and choosing Life, Nature, Tempest or War Domains?
- And this being the only way to gain it purely by multiclassing?
Worth a sperate thread I think.
Illithidbix wrote:
Pretty much, it's a DM authority thing,
By putting that disclaimer on the rules, it makes it far easier for a DM to point at it IN THE BOOK!!!!!111!!!one!!! and say "Says it's OPTIONAL!"
This isn't at all relevent to the sort of games I play in, but I can vaguely understand it matters more for groups where the letter of the RAW means more.
Okay, friend, before we go any further, breathe. Relax. We're adults - presumably - who should be talking through differing viewpoints in a reasonable, candid, and cordial manner.
I'm going to address your points in exactly that way, just as I've done from the beginning of my participation in this thread. I urge you switch gears and do the same.
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Gungolphus wrote:
Gungolphus wrote:
Kalani wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Kalani wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
Gungolphus wrote:
cassmi wrote:
I'm not wasting my day reading and responding to your rationalizations of how you're some defender of the purity of the beautiful game or any other codswallop.
(It's 85 degrees and I have no airco. We're going out.)
This is simple: Don't fracking be a tool to others. What they do doesn't affect you. (This means don't lay into them on the forums. Leave them to do their thing. You don't like it, just don't open your mouth, because you have nothing to contribute anyway.)
Play your game at your table and let it be.
Seraphex wrote:
Yunru wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
All players can interact with objects once per turn for free. Some DMs may interpret switching your weapon to your shield hand as using your "interact with objects" for the turn. Which means..... you can't switch it back until the start of your next turn, and then use your "interact with objects" again.
This should not be confused with the Use an Object action, which is different.... The Interact with objects rules relate to things like opening doors, drawing or sheathing a weapon, picking up something off the ground, and the like. I would count swapping hands in the same vein as drawing/sheathing a weapon.
Taking one hand off a two-handed weapon however, is something completely different. I do not even consider it as using the "Interact with objects" rules.
Kalani wrote:
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
They definitely didn't want the restriction to completely screw the players over if it was enforced as having to put away an item.
It also means that a bound character can still heal. (Though a gagged one can, of course, not.)
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Coming from way back and playing for decades, the V,S,M was widely considered to be a matter of:
Are you trying to be sneaky?
Verbal component means: you're not as sneaky as you might like.
Are you able to move freely?
Somatic component means: you better not be bound or occupied with things like clinging to a cliff face.
Do you have your gear?
Material component means: you can't roll out of bed and immediately begin slinging spells.
I made a level dip guide.
Cleric 1 is the best you can get from dipping.
mellored wrote:
No real surprise there. Cleric grants domain (it has to, otherwise you're not actually a cleric) and domain gives better stuff than most other multiclasses because of that fact. Cleric is what to dip as Wizard if you really want heavy armor. Tempest is pretty awesome because you can punish people who do hit you. (Of course all the Tempest deities are evil...at least in the Realms. )