Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jasonthebeast Oct 19, 2014 1:17:09	Please help me understand how this is not insane.  Basically a wood elf can fire in any woods with just light foliage (twigs and crap) then immediately stealth.  This gives an insane advantage to a wood elf in the forrest, its like being stealthed forever, no need to even move to a place to get real cover.  I had a wood elf ranger in my game not just have an advantage in the woods but was a nearly non-stop killing machine.  Someone explain why this would be ok to give a player?
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Oct 19, 2014 1:21:07	Hiding is an action, so most wood elves aren't getting to attack and hide on the same turn, just the rogues.
(Reply to #2) Clutchbone	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#4 CraftyCultist Oct 19, 2014 8:15:57	Considering that this sort of stunt can only be pulled off by a Wood Elf Rogue making ranged attacks while he or she is in a forest... I wouldn't call it insane. I'd call it "situationally useful", which is exactly how I like stuff to be.
#5 Sutekh1 Oct 19, 2014 19:55:39	"Mask of the Wild: You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena."   You do not have to be in a forest for this effect.
(Reply to #5) FrogReaver	Sutekh1 wrote:
#7 Timborama Oct 20, 2014 6:46:58	Elves and rogues are good at attacking and then hiding in natural enviroments*. More news at 11...   (*Only at the DMs discretion/behest. If the player is doing it "too much" that's the DM's fault, not the player's or the system's)
#8 slaughterj Oct 20, 2014 21:53:17	Some of the things mentioned seem to be cover, not obscurement.   One I think about is smoke from fire, is it generally natural or not?  Lightning strike?  From a campfire?
#9 Plaguescarred1 Oct 21, 2014 3:08:57	slaughterj wrote:
(Reply to #8) FrogReaver	slaughterj wrote:
#11 Plaguescarred1 Oct 21, 2014 13:15:25	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #11) FrogReaver	Plaguescarred wrote:
#13 paulstrait Oct 21, 2014 13:42:42	Yeah, it seems like "lightly/heavily obscured" aren't really defined ever, but rather we just get a series of examples to allow a general sense to emerge.  Things that lightly obscure, we are told, include "dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage" (from the lighly obscured section) and "foliage [again], heavy rain, falling snow, [and] mist."  Smoke certainly goes in that category (if it was really thick, it might heavily obscure, as per fog cloud), and it seems to me like it would count as a 'natural phenomenon.'  One might distinguish between smoke from a campfire in a forest vs smoke from a magical smoke machine or from a factory.  A stalagmite provides cover, but it does not obscure (or to the extent it obscures, it does so heavily -- if it was big enough that it blocked your entire body from being seen).
#14 Timborama Oct 22, 2014 6:12:53	Like the rest of the hiding rules, the ambiguity seems to be on purpose. That way DMs can establish base-rules for their table, or take things on a case-by-case basis
(Reply to #14) Coredump00	Timborama wrote:
#16 BRJN Oct 24, 2014 5:20:58	Keep in mind that Hide is a full action now, and shooting at somebody from obscurement usually announces your presence to them.  My wood elf monk can Attack and move - new turn - move and Hide (roll Stealth) - new turn - repeat as desired.  But he cannot bang away every single turn without any way for Team Monster to reply.
#17 Varisthenes Oct 24, 2014 10:18:17	Skulker on the other hand is Mask of the Wild on steroids.  I recently rerolled my wood elf rogue as a human and had no problems finding places to hide.  Just ask my DM.  What's the light like in the room?  Dim?  Okay, let's see...  I'm 20' away from the cleric and his magical mace, looks like I can hide. It helps that my DM also plays a rogue.
#18 jasonthebeast Nov 30, 2014 19:53:03	No stealth is compeltly broken in this edition.  First off staying with the wood elf-Light obscurment is the difinition of dim light, if you look at darkvision they always pretty much see in the dark at dim light so even in the square next to a person with darkvision (and I mean really right in front of them) they are in dim light thus in light obscurment so they can hide and as they no longer need to get rolling stealth despite moving right in front of an NPC or player they can just stay stealthed and dance around them without even needing a new roll.  If they pick up one simply feat or are actually a rogue then they can hide as a bonus action which means yes they can stab you half  move hide and half move again so you have no idea where they are at even if out in the open 10 feet in front of you, even if you have darkvision, because its dim light.  Stupidest rules I have ever seen, again the D&D team have no effort in balancing a game so its left to the DM's to fix the game again.   I mean any class can grab stealth as a skill, if they grab the Skulker feat they they might as well be invisable in just dim light, and they can attack you and dissappear in the same round, how the hell is a DM to deal with this type of crap without rewritting the rules for them.  Personally I dont want to rewrite rules, if I wanted to write rules I would make my own system, I want a system that actually took the time to balance their rules so a DM doesnt have to deal with retarded rules that make no sense and give the players way to much leway to just bs through the game.
#19 cowleymen Nov 30, 2014 21:38:02	jasonthebeast wrote:
#20 BRJN Dec 01, 2014 10:40:16	If you as DM are worried that the Rogue and Ranger (and every other Wood Elf with a bow) are going to take full tactical advantage of cover and concealment, then (1) discuss with the players how much tactical work you and they want to do (2) build an encounter where a couple big bags of HP charge in amongst the PCs' cover and flush them out for your spellcasters to deal with.  (Every woods has an outer edge.) (3) create a scenario where the PCs' ability to be Artillery is just what is needed to save the day - fending off a siege army from inside a castle, say (4) from time to time bring a fight to the PCs where there is no cover and/or no space, so they can't hide - classic dungeon made up of 20'x20' rooms? (5) design a fight where nobody can see any distance at all - cornfield just before harvest - and have both sides try to sneak "to the enemy's rear". (6) Have the PCs get chased by a group of Wood Elves who can also sneak in the woods.  (Maybe somebody tattled to the Elven King and he called the cops on the PCs?) (7) after a few 'test case' scenarios, talk over with the table how powerful Cover and Concealment ought to be at your table.  Tell them up front that the enemy too will get every advantage they can have.
#21 Sorxores Dec 02, 2014 6:36:15	jasonthebeast wrote:
#22 Theros Dec 02, 2014 6:47:22	Am I the only one who noticed that the rogue doesn’t need to hide anymore. The rogue in my game has only missed out on sneak attack damage about twice the whole time he’s been playing and he never stealth’s in combat.   So what’s the point in hiding other than getting advantage and wasting battle time.
#23 Noctaem Dec 02, 2014 6:59:03	Theros wrote:
#24 Sutekh1 Dec 02, 2014 18:47:22	and another chance to crit..
#25 Psikerlord Dec 03, 2014 22:59:32	Mask of the wild, and stealth in general, is as powerful as the DM pemits it to be, in consultation with the table.
#26 Sorxores Dec 04, 2014 6:48:12	I never understand how people can call OVERPOWER and CHEESE on abilities that result in a cool action, with less then optimal mechanical result?   Look at any DPR king tread, is any of them using a rogue sneak attack? from those that I saw the tops DPR are all greatsword weilding barbarian/fighter/paladin using great weapon mastery to gain an extra attack as a bonus action, then going nova with divine smite, or swinging the weapon 4 time with multiple attack with the fighter or a ranging advantage with the barbarian.   At low level the rogue with sneak attack on EVERY turn does similar damage as the greatsword weilding martial character   at level 1: Barbarian: 2d6+3(strenght)+2(rage) = 12 damage (not using any feat from a human build) Fighter: 2d6+3 reroll 1 and 2 (greatweapon fighitng style) = 11 damage Rogue: 1d8+1d6+3 = 11 damage (ignoring the paladin, since at first level he do less damage because instead of fighting style or divine smite he gain lay of hand there for no offensice calss feature)   Then when we reach lvl 5: Barbarian: 2x 2d6+4(strenght)+2 = 26 damage Fighter: 2x 2d6+4 reroll the 1 and 2 = 24 damage Rogue 1d8+3d6+4 = 19 damage   as soon that the other martial class gain their second attack, the rogue lose it's edge and start doing a lot less damage. Then if you add magical weapon the +1 damage on the barbarian and fighter result into +2 damage (on 2 attack) while the rogue only receive +1 damage. same goes with elemetal weapon the martial character will recieve +1d6 (fire/cold/lightning/necrotic etc...) on each attack while the rogue only have 1 attack, making the wedge between there DPS even greater.   So stop complaining that your rogue are overpowered and are doing too much damage and allowing them to stealth (at the cost of there bonus action) and attack with advantage is too powerfull no it's not. it's less powerfull then the fighter being allowed to weild a greatsword at level 1, then swing it twice at level 2, 3 time at level 11 and 4 time at level 20. it's less powerfull then the barbarian weilding a greatsword at lvl 1 and raging at level 1, then gaingin advantage on all attack at level 2, then getting a 5th attack at level 5. But I didn't saw anyone complaining aout the fighter attacking 4 time at level 20, or the barbarian using a greatsword, so why do you complain about the rogue having sneak attack?   Back in 3rd rogue had sneak attack on EVERY attack they would have, so if the rogue was dual weilding, he coul dhave up to 6 attacks so that mean 6 sneak attack, the rogue was a dangerous build that could kill back then, Now you can sneak only 1 per turn, so the best case scenario, you might get a sneak attack from a reaction, but if you hide every round, it will be difficult to receive a attack from your reaction since technically no enemy should be next to you to provoke an AoO.   Even the assassin, yes he is very powerfull... during the surprise round only. So if you play in public game (in AL for example) and you are stuck with a fighter/barbarian/paladin who no matter how you explain it to him, refuse to stay back to give you your surprise round (because surprise round are not honorable, they are for coward or any other reason other player could bring up) and no matter how you try to get a surprise round, the barbarian always start charging because that what it's fun for him, then your assassin is useless, going back to a regular rogue, without any subclass who can put some poison on his blade   or if your DM decide that all the monster got 21 passive perception because a displacer beast with 11 perception must be an error, or somehow displacer beast can roll Perception, and still take there action to attack, then what is the point of playing a rogue? might as well just play a fighter at least you get armor and HP to survive the displacer beast pouncing on you when you fail your impossible stealth stelath check.