You Make the Call - Shield Master Shove vs Grapple - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Primarchx Mar 25, 2015 11:43:56	Here's the situation. A Medium-sized fighter with the Shield Master feat has been grappled, but not restrained, by a Large monster with standard 5' reach. The fighter elects to use the bonus action provided by Shield Master to Shove the monster and succeeds with a Strength(Athletics) roll of 16 vs the monster's 15. He chooses to push the monster 5' away from him, which then breaks the grapple. Subsequently he uses his move to close and execute an Attack action in the same turn, wounding the monster. Here's the supporting info... - Grappled Condition: A grappled creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed. The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated. The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell. - Shield Master Shove: If you take the Attack Action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5' of you with your shield. - Shove: Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you. - Bonus Action: You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
#2 Coredump00 Mar 25, 2015 11:46:43	I'm not convinced a Shove will break the Grapple. It could just mean they both move 5'.
(Reply to #2) FrogReaver	Coredump00 wrote:
#4 FrogReaver Mar 25, 2015 11:52:21	Primarchx wrote:
#5 Primarchx Mar 25, 2015 11:52:32	Coredump00 wrote:
#6 strider13x Mar 25, 2015 15:30:54	Legal? Maybe, but as DM I may have imposed Disadvantage on the Shove attempt depending on the Narrative. Did the Large creature grapple with a hand or claw? Or was it a bear-hug style grab? Was the target grabbed by the shield or the leg perhaps? All that comes into play. Also, the Grapple says if the target is pushed out of reach the Grapple is broken, 5' Shove doesn't put the creature out of reach so you would still be grappled by RAW. By the description given I would have imposed Disad but if you succeed you shove and break the Grapple (which is what was intended I believe).
#7 curiousdragon Mar 25, 2015 15:42:07	strider13x wrote:
#8 jaelis Mar 25, 2015 16:33:52	I'd say it works fine.
#9 strider13x Mar 25, 2015 16:55:44	Curiousdragon- Really? When you are grabbed by someone there is still 5' between you? Come on, man! That grid is getting to you... ;) That is why I suggested that Disadvantage might be imposed. Heck, I would grant Advantage to the Shove if the creature had grabbed at the shield! I feel the narrative decides if they occupy the same space. Was it a tentacles monster? Then they are in separate spaces. Was it a Bugbear? Same space.
#10 Varden_Khol Mar 25, 2015 18:31:20	strider13x wrote:
#11 Coredump00 Mar 25, 2015 23:17:01	The mechanic for the Shove is almost identical to the mechanic for escaping from the grapple anyway... the only real difference is SM lets it be a bonus action Seems reasonable to me...
#12 strider13x Mar 26, 2015 4:34:04	Varden Khol- Grapple says if you are push out of reach you lose the grapple. 5' is still within reach, is it not? Again, the narration would tell us if the creature was occupying the same space at the time of the grapple or already a few feet away. Is this too difficult to understand? I feel the OP description is lacking in relevant details. By pure rules then yes, it is a "legal" rule, but it is also "legal" for a DM to grant Ad/Disad to any situation as they see fit. So am I not following the rules? I guess what I'm getting at is literal translations of rules leads to the game coming across as wonky. I see many different ways this scenario could play out depending on the individual circumstances. Otherwise if you rule exactly the same everytime no matter the situation it becomes to videogamey, I might as well be using the L R L R X X Y Combo move from StreetFighter every combat! Forget the story element! Lets just play a board game instead...
#13 jaelis Mar 26, 2015 6:16:14	strider13x wrote:
#14 strider13x Mar 26, 2015 9:08:09	jaelis- notice the OP only stated Large creature. So I gave varied interpretations. Without specific context it's not fair to give a singular answer. I gave the best answer I could given what little info I had. I even asked for context but none was given. What if it was a Bugbear grabbing at them with both arms? Would that qualify as being in the same space? I'd say yes and apply Disadvantage. What if it was a tentacled blob lashing around their legs? I'd say different space so the shove would break the grapple (heck, I'd say the shield sliced off the tentacle and the creature recoiled back 5' in pain!). Context is important in making rulings.
#15 jaelis Mar 26, 2015 9:18:30	I'm surprised, given your take on this, that you are worried about being in the creature's space. There's nothing about space in the rules and it's kind of an artificial game construct. I'd say the right question from your perspective would have been: can this thing still grapple me after I've pushed it 5 ft away? If the creature has reach, then sure. If you started out in the middle of a blob monster, then OK. But otherwise, I'd say no. The reach example is an obvious exception, the blob one is I think pretty unusual. Bugbear holding with two arms? No way. Their arms aren't so long.
#16 lawrencehoy Mar 27, 2015 2:58:16	When using a grid, I would interpret a grappled pair of creatures as being on either side of the line between the two spaces they occupy; the rules do not allow for two creatures occupying the same space (only the occasional Movement through an occupied space). Unless, perhaps, they are both Tiny creatures.
#17 strider13x Mar 27, 2015 4:22:17	Did y'all just say a Large Humanoids arms aren't long enough to put a man in a bear hug? And then went on to say there is an imaginary, unpassable line between them, even while grappling? Even after citing there is no spacing rules in 5e? No wonder these kinds of "rules" questions come up.
#18 jaelis Mar 27, 2015 5:02:39	No I think a large humanoid's arms aren't long enough to keep holding you after you push it 5 feet away.
#19 Noctaem Mar 27, 2015 9:12:27	This is completely legal and has clear support from the rules in the PHB.
#20 strider13x Mar 27, 2015 9:30:05	Jaelis- We agree on that point, I'm simply suggesting the attempt to shove may be at Ad/Disad due to circumstances. If the attempt succeeds then the grapple is broken. Noctaem- No one disputed that. EDIT: except maybe Coredump...
(Reply to #20) Coredump00	strider13x wrote:
#22 WizardV Mar 27, 2015 14:22:00	I would be upset if a DM imposed disadvantage. RAW on the matter seems undisputed. Cinematically this works in my head. There's very little more to say.
#23 Psikerlord Mar 28, 2015 3:24:21	Noctaem wrote:
#24 jarisfein Mar 28, 2015 10:17:53	The situation described above states that the grappler was the one being shoved, not the grappled opponent. The Grappling rules clearly state, "The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler..." The rules also state that an grappler can move while maintaining the grapple. Therefore, I would rule that the grappled Shield Master would be dragged along with the monster when it is shoved. The wording in the rules are very specific and there is no mention of a vice-versa in regards to the condition ending if an effect removes the grappler from the reach of the grappled. But... this ruling could easily fall under RAI vs RAW.
(Reply to #24) posineg	jarisfein wrote:
#26 Drunemeton Mar 30, 2015 20:18:10	The way I'd interpret this is that the Shove (Action) induces a Contest to break the grapple. Following the established rules. The RAW for grapple denote that a success with the Contest breaks the grapple. Yet still leaving them next to one another. If the Shove succeeds then the grapple is broken and the grappler is moved 5' away. Preserving the Feats intent.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Primarchx

Mar 25, 2015 11:43:56

Here's the situation.

A Medium-sized fighter with the Shield Master feat has been grappled, but not restrained, by a Large monster with standard 5' reach. The fighter elects to use the bonus action provided by Shield Master to Shove the monster and succeeds with a Strength(Athletics) roll of 16 vs the monster's 15. He chooses to push the monster 5' away from him, which then breaks the grapple. Subsequently he uses his move to close and execute an Attack action in the same turn, wounding the monster.

Here's the supporting info...

- Grappled Condition: A grappled creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed. The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated. The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.

- Shield Master Shove: If you take the Attack Action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5' of you with your shield.

- Shove: Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.

- Bonus Action: You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.

Coredump00

Mar 25, 2015 11:46:43

I'm not convinced a Shove will break the Grapple. It could just mean they both move 5'.

(Reply to #2)

FrogReaver

Coredump00 wrote:

FrogReaver

Mar 25, 2015 11:52:21

Primarchx wrote:

Primarchx

Mar 25, 2015 11:52:32

Coredump00 wrote:

strider13x

Mar 25, 2015 15:30:54

Legal? Maybe, but as DM I may have imposed Disadvantage on the Shove attempt depending on the Narrative. Did the Large creature grapple with a hand or claw? Or was it a bear-hug style grab? Was the target grabbed by the shield or the leg perhaps? All that comes into play. Also, the Grapple says if the target is pushed out of reach the Grapple is broken, 5' Shove doesn't put the creature out of reach so you would still be grappled by RAW. By the description given I would have imposed Disad but if you succeed you shove and break the Grapple (which is what was intended I believe).

curiousdragon

Mar 25, 2015 15:42:07

strider13x wrote:

jaelis

Mar 25, 2015 16:33:52

I'd say it works fine.

strider13x

Mar 25, 2015 16:55:44

Curiousdragon-

Really? When you are grabbed by someone there is still 5' between you? Come on, man! That grid is getting to you... ;)

That is why I suggested that Disadvantage *might* be imposed. Heck, I would grant Advantage to the Shove if the creature had grabbed at the shield! I feel the narrative decides if they occupy the same space. Was it a tentacles monster? Then they are in separate spaces. Was it a Bugbear? Same space.

#10

Varden_Khol

Mar 25, 2015 18:31:20

strider13x wrote:

#11

Coredump00

Mar 25, 2015 23:17:01

The mechanic for the Shove is almost identical to the mechanic for escaping from the grapple anyway... the only real difference is SM lets it be a bonus action

Seems reasonable to me...

#12

strider13x

Mar 26, 2015 4:34:04

Varden Khol-

Grapple says if you are push out of reach you lose the grapple. 5' is still within reach, is it not? Again, the narration would tell us if the creature was occupying the same space at the time of the grapple or already a few feet away. Is this too difficult to understand? I feel the OP description is lacking in relevant details. By pure rules then yes, it is a "legal" rule, but it is also "legal" for a DM to grant Ad/Disad to any situation as they see fit. So am I not following the rules?

I guess what I'm getting at is literal translations of rules leads to the game coming across as wonky. I see many different ways this scenario could play out depending on the individual circumstances. Otherwise if you rule exactly the same everytime no matter the situation it becomes to videogamey, I might as well be using the L R L R X X Y Combo move from StreetFighter every combat! Forget the story element! Lets just play a board game instead...

#13

jaelis

Mar 26, 2015 6:16:14

strider13x wrote:

#14

strider13x

Mar 26, 2015 9:08:09

jaelis-

notice the OP only stated Large creature. So I gave varied interpretations. Without specific context it's not fair to give a singular answer. I gave the best answer I could given what little info I had. I even asked for context but none was given.

What if it was a Bugbear grabbing at them with both arms? Would that qualify as being in the same space? I'd say yes and apply Disadvantage. What if it was a tentacled blob lashing around their legs? I'd say different space so the shove would break the grapple (heck, I'd say the shield sliced off the tentacle and the creature recoiled back 5' in pain!). Context is important in making rulings.

#15

jaelis

Mar 26, 2015 9:18:30

I'm surprised, given your take on this, that you are worried about being in the creature's space. There's nothing about space in the rules and it's kind of an artificial game construct.

I'd say the right question from your perspective would have been: can this thing still grapple me after I've pushed it 5 ft away? If the creature has reach, then sure. If you started out in the middle of a blob monster, then OK. But otherwise, I'd say no. The reach example is an obvious exception, the blob one is I think pretty unusual.

Bugbear holding with two arms? No way. Their arms aren't so long.

#16

lawrencehoy

Mar 27, 2015 2:58:16

When using a grid, I would interpret a grappled pair of creatures as being on either side of the line between the two spaces they occupy; the rules do not allow for two creatures occupying the same space (only the occasional Movement through an occupied space). Unless, perhaps, they are both Tiny creatures.

#17

strider13x

Mar 27, 2015 4:22:17

Did y'all just say a Large Humanoids arms aren't long enough to put a man in a bear hug? And then went on to say there is an imaginary, unpassable line between them, even while grappling? Even after citing there is no spacing rules in 5e? No wonder these kinds of "rules" questions come up.

#18

jaelis

Mar 27, 2015 5:02:39

No I think a large humanoid's arms aren't long enough to keep holding you after you push it 5 feet away.

#19

Noctaem

Mar 27, 2015 9:12:27

This is completely legal and has clear support from the rules in the PHB.

#20

strider13x

Mar 27, 2015 9:30:05

Jaelis-

We agree on that point, I'm simply suggesting the *attempt* to shove may be at Ad/Disad due to circumstances. If the *attempt* succeeds then the grapple is broken.

Noctaem-

No one disputed that.

EDIT: except maybe Coredump...

(Reply to #20)

Coredump00

strider13x wrote:

#22

WizardV

Mar 27, 2015 14:22:00

I would be upset if a DM imposed disadvantage. RAW on the matter seems undisputed. Cinematically this works in my head. There's very little more to say.

#23

Psikerlord

Mar 28, 2015 3:24:21

Noctaem wrote:

#24

jarisfein

Mar 28, 2015 10:17:53

The situation described above states that the grappler was the one being shoved, not the grappled opponent. The Grappling rules clearly state, "The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler..." The rules also state that an grappler can move while maintaining the grapple. Therefore, I would rule that the grappled Shield Master would be dragged along with the monster when it is shoved. The wording in the rules are very specific and there is no mention of a vice-versa in regards to the condition ending if an effect removes the grappler from the reach of the grappled. But... this ruling could easily fall under RAI vs RAW.

(Reply to #24)

posineg

jarisfein wrote:

#26

Drunemeton

Mar 30, 2015 20:18:10

The way I'd interpret this is that the Shove (Action) induces a Contest to break the grapple. Following the established rules.

The RAW for grapple denote that a success with the Contest breaks the grapple. Yet still leaving them next to one another.

If the Shove succeeds then the grapple is broken and the grappler is moved 5' away. Preserving the Feats intent.