Please forgive a newbie asking, what seems to me to be an obvious question. After looking through another thread that asked:
"Are any commercial companies planning to bring out a Spelljammer d20 conversion?"
I have to ask an alternate question:
Is there any reason why an amature group can not develop a Spelljammer - Players Handbook, Spelljammer - Gamemasters Guide, Spelljammer - Monster Manual and Spelljammer - Ships Combat Rulebook.
From my limited understanding the exsisting core rule books are already freely available under the d20 licence, so the main text would not be a breach of copyright.
The thing I am less sure of is the rules for converting 2e stuff to d20, however it seems to me that Beyond the Moons and Shattered Fractine and other good people are already doing a lot of that (at present in lots of bits).
Can anyone enlighten me on this? It would seem to that if no one else is interested in supporting Spelljammer professionally, then we could have volunteers contribute to an amature PDF project.
The biggest obsticle seems to me to be the legal thing, however if someone trusted by all, who knows a lawyer, I believe that contributers could post in a form giving consent for a non-profit copyright use or go all the way and make stuff part of the OGL.
Obviously the end of the book would be a long copy of the licence that would correctly credit everybody that contributed material. And all the Spelljammer websites that helped get it going. As long as the topic of payment is agreed at the begining then the completed PDFs could be offered for printing by a print on demand publishing service. Income could either reward authors (by proportion of content) or pay towards the maintenace costs of Spelljammer website. Or, here is a radical idea - the PDF project income could even fund buying the system from Wizards of the Coast (They don't seem to want to use it anyway and I think they would prefer having the power to control the system).
If anyone who has already done a conversion, doesn't want to be part of this project, I think that we could just get someone else to re-convert the same thing!
I think that if we really wanted to push Spelljammer, we would need to use the exsisting licence (or a new one just for the purpose) that allowed anyone with a campaign setting to make its own "Our"space extension to Spelljammer d20. (We should try to get a standard format for this established).
We could then work with the people who run fansites for the other discontinued TSR products to come up with updated Krinnspace and Greyspace supplements. I don't know what we would do with Realmspace, perhaps we could get a licence to make that as long as we didn't mention the Realms in great detail.
The reason I suggest the PDF books the way I have above is that I believe it will be more accessable for Spelljammer newbies if the rulebooks used the same chapter numbers and titles as the core rulebooks. (It also makes it clearer what books the player needs to read to get going).
I would suggest that if people DO agree to get onboard the project that the Players Handbook, would be the first thing to start with, followed by the Game Masters Handbook and the Monster Manual. As people seem to still be discussing how ships combat should work I would suggest that that is left until last with a council of trusted wise people given the decision of when to finalise any changes and start publication.
I think that if we pool the talents of the people who make Spelljammer artwork, we could even agree in a Spelljammer 3e house style and all that stuff. Can I plead for WHITE backgrounds and limited dark colours on any PDFs as black eats up everybodies toner. (I know that most Spelljammer fansites are black background jobs - and they all look very good - but black background make extra work for people that want to print stuff).
As far as I can see, the worst case scenario for Spelljammer d20 is to be so successful that WOTC want it back. However, if we actually made them reprint it then surely that would really be a victory for Spelljammer
So the ball is in your court guys. Can it be done? Would you want to be part of it? Do we have people with the skills to make artwork and PDF files?
I look forward to ANY reply that anybody has on this topic!
Big Mac
It certainly is possible to write you own fantasy space d20 game, as others have done (Aether & Flux or somesuch, Spacebuckle). However, you cannot mention Spelljammer, use Spelljammer art, ships, etc. It would have to be its own game.
Also, I doubt sales from a PDF would cover the costs of making them, much less buy the SJ license (WotC won't talk unless you bring a LOT of money to the table). And 4 books is a lot to expect people to buy for any line; most settings have a core book and then *maybe* a monster manual if its highly successful.
Jeff Davis
www.jeffreyadavis.tk
Originally posted by adventureauthor
I was under the impression that something like this is what the official site, www.darkwood.org/sj, is for.
Well, it is, but there has been no real push (or desire) to make a PDF rules set. Last I heard, there was one in the works, but they're doing this piece by piece first. I could be a bit wrong on the exact details.
Also, if you look in the Krynnspace section, you will see an update to Krynnspace.
Agreed with Night Druid - you cannot make a profit on Spelljammer, as that is WotC's intellectual property.
Basically, when Static and crew are just working on things for fun, they get more done. When they work on conversions, they get less done.
There have been a number of people (self included) who have tried to do a Spelljammer d20 PDF. To my knowledge, not a one has succeeded or been completed.
I can speak from experience with Dragonlance that work on such a project is very time-consuming, and very hard. It isn't easy.
If you want to do such a project, more power to you. I'm sure that Static would be happy to host it. And please don't take my comments as cynicism or negative. I'm just presenting my own viewpoint.
I wasn't thinking of generating cash from sales of PDFs. I was thinking more along the lines of getting all the conversion rules made by amatures (that seem to be willing to share them for free) and getting someone to compile them into one or more PDFs that are arranged into a logical order. That is why I suggested splitting them into several PDFs so that all the Players rules could be grouped together etc.
The plan I was suggesting would be to have a totally free PDF that people could download from sites like Beyond the Moons. So the people that made a PDF would donate any time and resources for free.
I shouldn't have really brought up payment, but thought that it might be worth sorting out as there are people that will print PDF files and post them to you as a proper book. They do this for a fee and pass a small amount of the fee to the author.
As for artwork, I was thinking of using new artwork (and only new artwork) made by Spelljammer fans.
I would love it if we could get WOTC to add the entire Spelljammer setting into the SRD as it would encourage ALL other d20 world suppliers to design their own "sphere".
Thanks for the heads up on previous attempts Dragonhelm. I did think that it would be a lot of work, but if several people have got stuck half way through, I wouldn't want to attempt it by myself.
I would contribute to a free to download PDF d20 Spelljammer project as I think that a book is much easier to use during a game than a website. There is always a page you have trouble finding.
However, when I do find out how to make PDFs for myself, my first project will have to be my Virtual Eclipse d20 System (nothing to do with spelljamming) and I have quite a lot of rules to get working for that!
I'll contact Static and Mark Doolan when I have my other (non Spelljammer) d20 project out of the way.
Originally posted by bigmac
I wasn't thinking of generating cash from sales of PDFs. I was thinking more along the lines of getting all the conversion rules made by amatures (that seem to be willing to share them for free) and getting someone to compile them into one or more PDFs that are arranged into a logical order. That is why I suggested splitting them into several PDFs so that all the Players rules could be grouped together etc.
Easy thing to say but not so easy to do. Else it'd already be done. Be nice to see something done with SJ though.
Originally posted by bigmac
The plan I was suggesting would be to have a totally free PDF that people could download from sites like Beyond the Moons. So the people that made a PDF would donate any time and resources for free.
I shouldn't have really brought up payment, but thought that it might be worth sorting out as there are people that will print PDF files and post them to you as a proper book. They do this for a fee and pass a small amount of the fee to the author.
Ah, but whoever does a "conversion" can't remotely claim to be the author of the work. Can they? After all any such work thus produced, techically, is not theirs; is it? (No matter how many hours they put into it.) The way the license is set up at present, and under existing copyright law, what's the verdict on this?
Consider: long before there was a official Gamma World D20 Modern there were two or three D20 "fan" documents. Yet even those, to fit the license, provided little more than stat blocks. Include the least bit of flavor text and, I think, you're in violation of the license. (?) Which means you'd have to write up all new flavor text. . . and, frankly, if you're going to do that there is no point to even bother with D20 or the OGL.
Originally posted by bigmac
I would love it if we could get WOTC to add the entire Spelljammer setting into the SRD as it would encourage ALL other d20 world suppliers to design their own "sphere".
What setting?
There is no setting, per se, just a very threadbare cosmological construct into which existing TSR properties were dumped. A comsological construct with a lot of holes and rule inconsitencies.
True, there are hints of meta-setting, spread out over many modules and various resources, but it was never properly developed. And then Plancescape came around and, well, kabosh.
Besides the Spelljammer logo there really isn't much to the distinguish the "setting". In fact you could take the SRDs and pretty much just use them as the basis for SJ D20. Problem with that is you're going to have to write a lot from scratch. (Assuming you could get the rights to use the logo.) Which also means anything that would be put out under said logo would have to be "re-imagined".
Do we really want done to SJ what was done to BG?
All that said, yes, it would be nice to see something new put out for Spelljammer. Hopefully freed of the crutch of having to be supported by existing in-house properties.
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
Consider: long before there was a official Gamma World D20 Modern there were two or three D20 "fan" documents. Yet even those, to fit the license, provided little more than stat blocks. Include the least bit of flavor text and, I think, you're in violation of the license. (?) Which means you'd have to write up all new flavor text. . . and, frankly, if you're going to do that there is no point to even bother with D20 or the OGL.
Pretty much, yes. After the conversion policy was finalized a year ago, ENWorld pretty much yanked down its conversion library and started from scratch; the end result has been few people are really interested in doing conversions anymore.
Add to this that I've yet to see 3e handle ships very well; section HP & AC may sound cool, but leads to an accounting nightmare that ultimately results in catapults & ballistae being jettisoned in favor of simply charging in & boarding ships as the one and only course of action in a battle.
What setting?
There is no setting, per se, just a very threadbare cosmological construct into which existing TSR properties were dumped. A comsological construct with a lot of holes and rule inconsitencies.
True, there are hints of meta-setting, spread out over many modules and various resources, but it was never properly developed. And then Plancescape came around and, well, kabosh.
In all fairness, there was a fair amount of setting to SJ...unfortunately, it really was a bunch of "mini-settings" rather than a collective whole. It kinda breaks down as follows:
Radiant Triangle - the sphere guides.
Astronumi Cluster - a SJ setting, but best viewed as separate from the rest (due to massive changes it makes).
Modules - Vodoni Empire, "Crystal Spheres", and "Goblin's Return" spheres are kinda a set(s) of their own, with varying levels of SJ activity
Novels - Really, the spheres visited & mentioned are a setting onto themselves, especially towards the later books.
Although truthfully, I think I'd rather just start over with a new setting than try to use the existing mini-settings.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Pretty much, yes. After the conversion policy was finalized a year ago, ENWorld pretty much yanked down its conversion library and started from scratch; the end result has been few people are really interested in doing conversions anymore.
That's what I thought.
A lot of the links I had to such material are now defunct, dead parrots, linking to nada. Guess that explains why?
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Add to this that I've yet to see 3e handle ships very well; section HP & AC may sound cool, but leads to an accounting nightmare that ultimately results in catapults & ballistae being jettisoned in favor of simply charging in & boarding ships as the one and only course of action in a battle.
Vexing format issues aside I have to say, in all fairness, these are some of the most difficult rules to work out. I don't know if you've seen any version of my eternal work in progress, Crystal Spheres, but those rules are about as vague as fog.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
In all fairness, there was a fair amount of setting to SJ...unfortunately, it really was a bunch of "mini-settings" rather than a collective whole. It kinda breaks down as follows:
Radiant Triangle - the sphere guides.
Astronumi Cluster - a SJ setting, but best viewed as separate from the rest (due to massive changes it makes).
Modules - Vodoni Empire, "Crystal Spheres", and "Goblin's Return" spheres are kinda a set(s) of their own, with varying levels of SJ activity
Novels - Really, the spheres visited & mentioned are a setting onto themselves, especially towards the later books.
Although truthfully, I think I'd rather just start over with a new setting than try to use the existing mini-settings.
Quite right, there are a number of mini-settings, but they aren't the SJ setting. Perhaps what I should have typed was: That "there is no cohesive underlying meta-setting" provided for Spelljammer?
SJ should have a outlined meta-setting that is, to borrow a gaming term from elsewhere, "plug and play". As it stands the "setting" gets mired in either one of the mini-settings tied too closely to existing properties or some ephmereal meta-plot arc about Elves and Orc at war with eash other few gamers I ever encountered really cared about.
Oh, sure, there was always that one die hard fan. But for the most part SJ was little more than a diversion, a side trek, from normal play in one of TSRs established settings. Which is sad, considering that SJ had the potential to be so much more!
Starting to sound like a rabid fanboy. Signing off now.
;) :D
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
That's what I thought.
A lot of the links I had to such material are now defunct, dead parrots, linking to nada. Guess that explains why?
Probably; as I recall, following the release of the new guidelines, the guys running ENWorld spent a few hours/days looking over what they had, and came to the conclusion an effort to get everything to fit the guidelines would be more effort than starting over from scratch. And that pretty much piked the whole conversion effort. (In fairness, WotC gave ENWorld a few days warning before they went public with the new guidelines, to give them a "grace" period to get in code).
Vexing format issues aside I have to say, in all fairness, these are some of the most difficult rules to work out. I don't know if you've seen any version of my eternal work in progress, Crystal Spheres, but those rules are about as vague as fog.
Not saying it can't be done, but I know I wouldn't want to run any d20 version that I've seen thus far on a scale bigger than a pair of ships going at it. Big battles are out-of-the-question.
Quite right, there are a number of mini-settings, but they aren't the SJ setting. Perhaps what I should have typed was: That "there is no cohesive underlying meta-setting" provided for Spelljammer?
SJ should have a outlined meta-setting that is, to borrow a gaming term from elsewhere, "plug and play". As it stands the "setting" gets mired in either one of the mini-settings tied too closely to existing properties or some ephmereal meta-plot arc about Elves and Orc at war with eash other few gamers I ever encountered really cared about.
Touche'. There's a meta-setting that is strongly implied, but never truly implimented in SJ. However, I do note that, at least in the early D&D products, a strong meta-setting was implied in some settings, particularly FR and less-so in GH.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Pretty much, yes. After the conversion policy was finalized a year ago, ENWorld pretty much yanked down its conversion library and started from scratch; the end result has been few people are really interested in doing conversions anymore.
So how do you think we stand on the position of not getting our asses sued by WOTC if we did make a non-profit Spelljammer Players Handbook d20 PDF?
Add to this that I've yet to see 3e handle ships very well; section HP & AC may sound cool, but leads to an accounting nightmare that ultimately results in catapults & ballistae being jettisoned in favor of simply charging in & boarding ships as the one and only course of action in a battle.
I think section hit points suck a bit too. It feels like someone wants to do location damage, which doesn't really fit in with the abstract way that damage works on characters and NPCs. If I was voting, I'd either go for:
1) Stick with Hull Points or
2) Multiply a ships hull points into hit points and treat it as if it is a large creature for damage purposes.
In all fairness, there was a fair amount of setting to SJ...unfortunately, it really was a bunch of "mini-settings" rather than a collective whole. It kinda breaks down as follows:
Radiant Triangle - the sphere guides.
Astronumi Cluster - a SJ setting, but best viewed as separate from the rest (due to massive changes it makes).
Modules - Vodoni Empire, "Crystal Spheres", and "Goblin's Return" spheres are kinda a set(s) of their own, with varying levels of SJ activity
Novels - Really, the spheres visited & mentioned are a setting onto themselves, especially towards the later books.
Although truthfully, I think I'd rather just start over with a new setting than try to use the existing mini-settings.
Isn't the whole point of Spelljammer that it isn't ONE SETTING, but instead a method for taking characters from place to place. So you don't really want it to be a collective whole. Surely each sphere should have its own internal politics, which would be influenced by things like the local gods and to a lesser extent what happens on the groundling worlds in a sphere.
I think the only thing I would have liked to see more of in Spelljammer was some proper DMs rules for ensuring continuity. Practical planetology was a really good oportunity for this, but instead of giving us a planet creation tool (similar to a tool for rolling up a new PC) it was a list of what you call "mini-settings". They are great in themselves, but not as useful as things like "Krynnspace" "Greyspace" or "Realmspace" which in my opinion are a far more detailed way of traveling away from the normal campaign setting than plane travel. I'm not knocking plane travel, but it is hard to imagine the vastness of something like the astral plane - it all seems to be the same. I think people can relate to the travel involved in going through space on a flying ship.
The biggest problem some players had was not that Spelljammer had mini-settings, but that the characters were "merely" passengers on a ship. They have to go where the captain decides to go, and are forced to remain in the same "area" (roleplaying wise) for the entire journey. This could make some people think that they don't have a choice in their actions and that everything is being run by the DM.
Space combat is also more focused on "the ship" than the individuals. Especially if you change to a system where every 5 foot square of every ship gets its own statistics!
I suppose this is why you don't see too many (surface) ship role playing games or games involving flying combat or underwater combat. Fantasy battle is what people are used to, so that is what the RPG companies find easiest to sell.
However, I wasn't talking of trying to get anyone except Spelljammer fans to play.
Mac
PS I have a Calidan character (from The Astromundi Cluster) in my DMs d20 Forgotten Realms campaign.
(I gave my character that background just to wind up the other people in my role playing group that bad mouthed Spelljammer without even playing it! - If he ever dies, I'll be looking for a Wild Mage conversion LOL)
Originally posted by bigmac
Isn't the whole point of Spelljammer that it isn't ONE SETTING, but instead a method for taking characters from place to place.
Spelljammer's failing, though, is that it relied on those other settings to support it. What would Spelljammer be without Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, and Krynnspace? The 3e cosmology makes things more difficult as well. Basically, Spelljammer as it stands now cannot stand on its own.
I've often said that I feel Spelljammer needs to be two things. First, it needs to be a setting that can stand on its own. It needs to be demonstrated that Spelljammer is a viable setting in and of itself that doesn't need other worlds to hold it up. The Polyhedron mini-game had the right idea with this. People still debate on the outcome of this.
Secondly, it needs to be a tool to allow the DM to connect settings in sort of a modular fashion. A DM could use Krynn and the Realms, but not Greyhawk. Or he could ditch the Radiant Triangle and Astromundi Cluster for the Known Spheres and Pyrespace.
I am thoroughly convinced that having Spelljammer as both a setting and a way of connecting settings is the best way of approaching d20 Spelljammer. That's just my opinion, of course.
If he ever dies, I'll be looking for a Wild Mage conversion LOL)
Sean K. Reynolds has a d20 wild mage on his site - www.seankreynolds.com
The reason for this is that the spelljamming community would see few reasons to involve themselves with groundling nations as thier matters differ from groundling nations. Why would a groundling nation want to spend vast resorces on spelljamming ships and equipment when they have more pressing concerns for people that are at war with the Red Wizards of Thay. On the other side of the coin why would spelljamming community want to deal with a threat of Red Wizards when the Red Wizards have no interest in spelljamming community so far the thier groundling empire.
Spelljamming setting is one of exploration and merchants. Why spelljam if it only cost money... ie a money pit. PCs in my campaign want to justify thier expenses for investing in ships and helms. Thus a groundling nation before exporation of space must feel fairly secure with thier nations borders and internal issues before looking to the stars.
More Rambling...
After reading the novels I got the impression that most of the spheres are fair stable in thier relation to each other (good for trade and exploration... LOL ... one wants to make sure one can return back to one's native sphere or where one makes one's home away from ships). Also gleaned from the novels is that travel between spheres was fairly short .... any where from as little as 9 days to 30 days seemed right. This runs opposite from rules that state 10d10 days for each plowgiston crossing. Another indicator of a short amount of time in phlow was the lack of encounters in the phlogiston if it was truely 10d10 days the novels would have given more encounters in phlow. So I will sumurize as follows:
1) Travel Time: 5d6 days
2) Few Encounters
3) Stable Positions of spheres
If the spheres are fairly stable it would have behooved TSR to created a map of the know spheres in the phlogiston. Doing such would have added more stability to it being a unique setting.
In the new version of Ship Combat I am trying to work in what the novels seems to point out is that ships have two sets of hit points (three if one counts such stuff as doors). General Hit Points that represents damage to ships sides and decks and Keel Hit Points. In the system all ships have varied number of General Hit Points but the Keel Hit Points are set by size of ship. Keel damage is taken only on a Collateral Hits or if the ship has no more General Hit Points. A ship may continue to opperate as long as it has keel points... but for what good without the rest of the decks listing to one side and people clinging onto what remains of the ship. We are still play testing the keel hit points and how a ship should be able to opperate with just keel hit points left... if at all.
It should be noted that my players with the new system will Ram if out gunned (in hopes their person combat skills will win the day). They have had ships shot out from underneath them before when outgunned.
Oh yeah ... I not have my new ship/combat system online yet... want to play test it some more.
Enuff of Ramblings
Well Meet Bigmac
Originally posted by Danastes
I have just finished the 5th book in the Cloak Master series and I was strucked that Spelljammer is more then connectivity. While it is nice to have ships visit worlds that everyone loves from one of the other settings, it is indeed a setting in itself.
I've read the entire Cloakmaster set of novels twice now. The first time for enjoyment and the second time with a paper and pens looking for Sphere details!
A very big disapointment for me has always been the way that TSR just said here is Bral (and all the wonderful places in Practical Planetology) and didn't give you default locations for them. A DM could still be given the choice to use Bral wherever he wanted to but a default choice would give continuity to those people that don't need or want to change it.
The critisisum that some people make (myself not included) about Spelljammer not having it's own setting would have not happened if they had stuck Bral in its own sphere from the outset (I believe that it is now down as in Spiralspace and the Realmspace [in the Tears of Selene] depending on who you ask.)
The reason for this is that the spelljamming community would see few reasons to involve themselves with groundling nations as thier matters differ from groundling nations. Why would a groundling nation want to spend vast resorces on spelljamming ships and equipment when they have more pressing concerns for people that are at war with the Red Wizards of Thay. On the other side of the coin why would spelljamming community want to deal with a threat of Red Wizards when the Red Wizards have no interest in spelljamming community so far the thier groundling empire.
Spelljamming setting is one of exploration and merchants. Why spelljam if it only cost money... ie a money pit. PCs in my campaign want to justify thier expenses for investing in ships and helms. Thus a groundling nation before exporation of space must feel fairly secure with thier nations borders and internal issues before looking to the stars.
As for the connections with Krynnspace, Realmspace and Greyspace, I don't think Spelljamming would be so fun without them. The way I see it, Spelljammers don't go to Krynnspace to trade with Talidas, they go to Krynnspace because it is KRYNNSPACE! Talidas itself is just another groundling nation, albiet one that is controled by large creatures with pointy heads!
One of the Spelljammer quotes that has made me laugh is one where someone from Krynn tries to use steel coins in space and gets told to come back with real money. That to me is the real thing that is apealing about Spelljammer, everyone is a foreigner, everyone has different culture, gods. You can get a bunch of PCs that would never normally meet and throw them together in space where just getting around is a challenge.
More Rambling...
After reading the novels I got the impression that most of the spheres are fair stable in thier relation to each other (good for trade and exploration... LOL ... one wants to make sure one can return back to one's native sphere or where one makes one's home away from ships). Also gleaned from the novels is that travel between spheres was fairly short .... any where from as little as 9 days to 30 days seemed right. This runs opposite from rules that state 10d10 days for each plowgiston crossing. Another indicator of a short amount of time in phlow was the lack of encounters in the phlogiston if it was truely 10d10 days the novels would have given more encounters in phlow. So I will sumurize as follows:
1) Travel Time: 5d6 days
2) Few Encounters
3) Stable Positions of spheres
If the spheres are fairly stable it would have behooved TSR to created a map of the know spheres in the phlogiston. Doing such would have added more stability to it being a unique setting.
The map is a great idea. I think someone has made one on one of the Spelljammer websites. I think TSR avoided doing a map so that they could slot new spheres into the setting later. Unfortunately they never came up with a recommended system for DMs to do this. Perhaps an even more valuable tool would be one of those charts you get at the back of a road atlas that tells you the distances between all the cities and towns on a map. We could have a Sphere map with travel time (you could still vary it by putting stuff like 2d6+4 days). I believe that most spheres already have something similar for internal travel
In the new version of Ship Combat I am trying to work in what the novels seems to point out is that ships have two sets of hit points (three if one counts such stuff as doors). General Hit Points that represents damage to ships sides and decks and Keel Hit Points. In the system all ships have varied number of General Hit Points but the Keel Hit Points are set by size of ship. Keel damage is taken only on a Collateral Hits or if the ship has no more General Hit Points. A ship may continue to opperate as long as it has keel points... but for what good without the rest of the decks listing to one side and people clinging onto what remains of the ship. We are still play testing the keel hit points and how a ship should be able to opperate with just keel hit points left... if at all.
It should be noted that my players with the new system will Ram if out gunned (in hopes their person combat skills will win the day). They have had ships shot out from underneath them before when outgunned.
Oh yeah ... I not have my new ship/combat system online yet... want to play test it some more.[/b]
Two sets of hit points? Sounds complicated. Are the general hit points for the fittings like the weapons? Or are they separate things like the doors? I hope that you are giving the ship a large damage reduction bonus - given that you need to do the equivalent of 10 hit points to equal one hull point in the 2nd edition version I would think that all ships should get at least 9 points of damage reduction for a similar outcome.
I suppose your two types of hit point idea means that ship combat would be done to illiminate the manouvarability class or the opposition (in effect tearing sails and masts down and destroying rudders and oars) before moving in to take the ship hull "intact". I suppose if your system gives a choice between doing general damage, specific damage to weapons and manouverability and ship destruction damage then it could bring extra realism into the game. The main thing is does it slow down a big battle (or alternatively can we have a simple method and an advanced method working side by side). This reminds me of stuff like wrestling rules which can add to combat but make some people say "Oh no MORE rules" however it is great that you are working on this. I have my fingers crossed that you have it all balanced right and can publish it soon.
Has anyone done research into real ship combat to see how much damage was done to ships that were boarded and how often ships were sunk in combat instead of being taken?
Enuff of Ramblings
Well Meet Bigmac
[b]
"Well met", Danastes. Sounds like you have been hanging around with dirt kickers from Toril!
May Tradifos smile on your travels!
Big Mac
PS Thanks for the tip Dragonhelm, now all I need is to have an even worst character, like a Drow/Half Orc crossbreed that is a Multiclass Bard/Paladin so that when I say: "...or I could always be a Wild Mage if you don't like that idea." My DM will snatch my hand off in his eagerness!
Two sets of hit points? Sounds complicated. Are the general hit points for the fittings like the weapons? Or are they separate things like the doors? I hope that you are giving the ship a large damage reduction bonus - given that you need to do the equivalent of 10 hit points to equal one hull point in the 2nd edition version I would think that all ships should get at least 9 points of damage reduction for a similar outcome.
Not really that complicated the two sets of hit points. As for damage reduction that is taken into account by Hardness
Thanks again for your help.
The battle the PCs of my game group faced was unusual as thier ship had a gnomish device that was built for a 'boost' in speed with rockets, that then could be unclamped and the other 'rockets' could be set to launch the device as a ramming vessal! The one shot device gave the PCs the edge they needed in the encounter.
All in all the Players have believed the new ship to ship combat system is nearly finished and I should start putting parts of it up on line for others to play test.
Well it time for me to get to bed! Chat with you all latter.
By the way Bigmac if you ever want to chat, just download Yahoo Instant Messenger and my name is 'danastes'.
Originally posted by Danastes
Well every two Saturdays my game group role plays in my spelljamming campaign and tonight was no exception. The play testing of ship to ship combat system that I been working as continues... players feel I have the correct number of hit points for ships, and have dismissed the idea of Keel Points. Also after player wanted to 'enchance ship' with Cat Grace, did I decide to list ships and seige weapons as "Dex —". While this is defferent from the Dex 1 that I gave to all ships and seige weapons cause I not want them being used against creatures and npcs, I decided differently as both General Vorr used a Ballista to kill a Umber Hulk in the novels and Sylvie was kill by a ballista bolt. Apparently to me siege weapons should have a "Dex —" score. And as I wanted both ships and seige weapons to have same dexterity score they too have "Dex —". After all with a "Dex —" Vorr would have only needed a 18 to hit the Umber Hulk with a ballista (assume BAB not used when aiming seige weapons).
My Spelljammer boxed set is in my loft at the moment, but if my memory is correct didn't seige wepons like Balistas have thier own THACO scores under the 2nd edition rules? If that is the case then you could work out the Dex scores (or at least the total + to hit) by converting that to 3e.
Wasn't there also some sort of rule for weapons that were short on their crews? I wouldn't have thought that "cats grace" would work on a seige wepon as it is not alive, however you should be able to make a Masterworked Balista or other seige weapon. And if you CAN make a masterworked weapon then you should be able to get it turned into a magical weapon. You should also be able to make magical Balista bolts! Or magical stones for a catapult, perhaps your spellcasting players could research a new version of Magic Stone that would work on things larger than pebbles.
Now that we items like Smokesticks in the 3e rules, players, who learn alchamy, should be able to develop a large smoke generating bolt for a balista. Then rather than damaging your opponants ship you could choose to fill up their air envelope (or at least some of it) with smoke. That should put their crew at minuses to hit your ship back, and might even swing the balance in a fight. Having said that, I wouldn't want to work out the calculations for how much smoke you need to make to block out a ships air envelope up to above crew head height!
I've always liked the idea that some spells like magic missile do not work on non living objects, because that forces spellcasters to think of new things to do with the "less used" spells. There are so many possiblilities for damaging other ships, especially with things that start fires!
I don't use Yahoo Messenger too much, as I'm not online at regular times, but I'll add you to my buddie list and if we are online at the same time, I'll say "Hi". My yahoo ID is "big_mac_tmmm".
There is now a project to help finish the SJ3e conversion that Beyond the Moons has been working on: Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project.
I'm the moderator for the project!
I may have been a bit of a tortoise on this, but I this is one race I do intend to finish. :D