Crossover Spelljammer and Science Fiction? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Crossover Spelljammer and Science Fiction?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
katahn
Apr 07, 2008 12:18:04 The boards here are a little quiet, so here's a topic for people to debate: how would you go about mixing a spelljammer setting in with a more traditional science fiction environment? Maybe the various D&D worlds are on the border of Star Trek's Federation? Perhaps the Star Wars Empire finds Toril? Maybe it's Dragonstar?

My thought is it could be done and possibly even with only some minimal changes.

1. Solar systems would have to be solar-centric and the over-the-top-ultra-magical systems (like worlds as fruit on a giant space-tree for instance) would have to be taken away. Similarly flatworlds and such wouldn't exist, or at least not naturally at any rate... maybe they are constructed in some fashion? Air worlds become gas giants and fire worlds could either be multi-star systems or typical worlds covered in lava with high geothermal heat.

2. Air envelopes and gravity planes could simply be a side effect of the magic of the helm. Similarly the helm could protect against radiation hazards.

3. The phlogiston and crystal spheres are replaced with the former being a sort of hyperspace-esque dimension. Where a cyrstal sphere would be becomes the closest one can be to a star in order to open a gate to the flow.

4. Asteroid port cities either don't exist or have something like a helm to provide air/gravity and to protect from radiation.

5. Spheres like the Astromundi Cluster either don't exist or maybe that local area of space doesn't fully connect to the phlogiston.
#2
jaid
Apr 07, 2008 21:26:09 if i wanted to play star trek/dragonstar/star wars/whatever, wouldn't it be easier to just pick up the rules for star trek/dragonstar/star wars/whatever and play it?

the whole point of spelljammer is basically space fantasy. if i wanted science fiction, there's a bajillion (to use a technical term) other games out there that can do science fiction. i am not really aware of any other space fantasy games out there (someone else once posted a link to something they said was space fantasy, but i feel it was more post-apocalyptic fantasy than it was about space really).
#3
darthcestual
Apr 08, 2008 7:31:13 Jaid makes a good point. However, if you're looking for resources & inspiration, snatch up Planescape. What I did for my SpellJammer and Fading Suns game was to convert each plane into it's own planet or system of planets that the players could explore, with the denizens of those planes made as aliens where needed. It worked great for SJ and our Fading Suns campaign was in the flavor of Outlaw Star, so it played well overall.
#4
katahn
Apr 08, 2008 8:19:12 I'm not arguing that Spelljammer's core setting is inferior, or that the right thing to do is to blend it with traditional science fiction settings. That argument has been done to death pro and con. What I'm hoping for is a fun little debate on how one might mix Spelljammer with traditional sci-fi settings and retain as much of the flavor of the former as possible.

So *if* you wanted to blend them, how would you do it and what rules (if any) would you modify in either direction?
#5
eldersphinx
Apr 12, 2008 7:19:59 I think the first and foremost question you'll have to answer is how you avoid the Known Spheres being handed your sci-fi setting's equivalent of smallpox blankets. The tech gap (in communications, unified government, and similar 'soft' technologies, even moreso than such simple things as weapons and space drives) mean that Spelljammer's probably almost certainly doomed to not-so-slow assimilation by any sci-fi universe it comes into contact with.
#6
katahn
Apr 14, 2008 12:09:31 The first assumption there is technology > magic and that need not be so. If you posit that anything technology can do magic can duplicate (and vice-versa "any sufficiently advanced technology...") then the answer to the "smallpox blankets" is simply "cure disease". The next question is whether or not your sci-fi setting has technology that can handle magical diseases ;)

Backwater spelljamming worlds (like the Radiant Triangle systems as presented in the game core) would have some trouble. But who's to say the EIN, the Vodanni, the Mind Flayers, etc., wouldn't be capable of holding their own?

Actually, that reminds me of something. The core rules say a spelljammer can land anywhere on a planet and fly through its atmosphere as easily as space right? So why hasn't the introduction of spelljammers completely revolutionized life on the core D&D worlds? Think about how rapid transit and air travel revolutionized our world... think about how being able to use spelljamming ships in military applications ranging from troop transport to running supplies to breaking sieges would impact a world.
#7
Silverblade_The_Enchanter
Apr 14, 2008 23:37:04 Katahn
cost, and many weird vagueries... ;)
magic may work differenlty here and there..
folk may not think like we do...
gods may ban it...

etc
#8
katahn
Apr 16, 2008 8:49:26
Katahn
cost, and many weird vagueries... ;)
magic may work differenlty here and there..
folk may not think like we do...
gods may ban it...

etc

I house-ruled that spelljammer helms worked by interacting with the "Aether" a long time ago and that planetary bodies were effectively "islands" in the "aetherial sea". In order to land on a planet one had to find what amounted to an inlet or river that extended to the surface. Some of these rivers didn't go all the way down, some did but couldn't support ships above a certain weight limit. Helmsmen could make an intelligence check to find them, and on "core" spelljammer worlds the rivers were well-charted (so no check needed for an experienced pilot).

The net effect was players couldn't land their ships somewhere I didn't like, and it provided an explanation as to why the Zhents or Thayans weren't using spelljammers for military dominance in the Realms.

Now if one were to combine Spelljammer with something sci-fi'ish and preserve the feeling of the two as much as possible, maybe the "ether rivers" are the way to go. Of course maybe they aren't, as the fantasy feel of any given terrestrial world is going to be hosed either by flying sailing ships or by advanced air/space-craft from a technological civilization anyway. ;)
#9
jadehorde
Apr 25, 2008 19:55:29
The first assumption there is technology > magic and that need not be so. If you posit that anything technology can do magic can duplicate (and vice-versa "any sufficiently advanced technology...") then the answer to the "smallpox blankets" is simply "cure disease". The next question is whether or not your sci-fi setting has technology that can handle magical diseases ;)

Backwater spelljamming worlds (like the Radiant Triangle systems as presented in the game core) would have some trouble. But who's to say the EIN, the Vodanni, the Mind Flayers, etc., wouldn't be capable of holding their own?

Actually, that reminds me of something. The core rules say a spelljammer can land anywhere on a planet and fly through its atmosphere as easily as space right? So why hasn't the introduction of spelljammers completely revolutionized life on the core D&D worlds? Think about how rapid transit and air travel revolutionized our world... think about how being able to use spelljamming ships in military applications ranging from troop transport to running supplies to breaking sieges would impact a world.

I think it's a largely true assumption though. Anyone can use science and technology. Only people who have dedicated their lives to it can really use magic, unless you happen to have a large population of beings with spell-like abilities or have somehow gotten around how very difficult it is to craft even a single magic item. Which admittedly is completely possible in the broad range of crystal spheres but isn't exactly common though to be fair to advance science takes similar dedication.

More importantly, it isn't direct combat that will spell their eventual assimilation. That was the point of the previous post. It is the fact that a tech world will likely have something like 1-3 orders of magnitude more people, if we assume it isn't some galactic empire and they will have a standard of living higher than anything found outside the magical elves type fantasy race or the highest echelons of a magical society. And this is talking about modern day Earth level tech (though to be fair more specifically industrial nations). You are right though that our medical tech isn't even on the level of a cure light wounds or cure disease spell (though I'd argue a more serious ailment requires HEAL at the very least). But go down a hundred years, let alone Star Trek or something, and only Raise Dead is off limits and that only because of ethical limitations.

It's a hard sell that economically and socially, any Spelljammer power is going to be able to compete with mass production, agribusiness, worldwide communication and travel. Even the major ones like the IEN. Sure, the odd elites can do as well or even better (Raise Dead, Wish, planar travel, etc), but those farmers on that asteroid or near Kalaman are going look down at their backbreaking work (and feudal era agriculture IS backbreaking) and make a very simple choice to live a better life...even if as a second class wage slave in a megalopolis.

The proof? We see it everyday on Earth. Admittedly, those migrant workers aren't leaving fantasy lands with access to actual magic, but honestly, how many common folk of Toril, Krynn, or Oerth even see midlevel magic, let alone benefit from it rather than be sacrificed to an evil god or eaten by a monster?

And even in direct combat the only hope would be to have high level assassins and mages off key personnel. It's not like I'm expecting a Protection from Normal Missiles to halt phaser fire or even a tank shell. It goes to 100 Elven warships vs 10,000 sci-fi battlecruisers (due to massproduction and modern logistics) capable of attacking on the order of lightseconds away. A Charm Person might sway things. I've seen that argument, but then you just make sure that orders are broadly distributed and any odd deviations land that person in the brig.
#10
Angel_Black
May 17, 2008 17:29:32
The boards here are a little quiet, so here's a topic for people to debate: how would you go about mixing a spelljammer setting in with a more traditional science fiction environment? Maybe the various D&D worlds are on the border of Star Trek's Federation? Perhaps the Star Wars Empire finds Toril?

I´d just go Asimov with some Star Wars races and place them in the universe with the spelljammer technology, to add more troubles i would say that some centuries ago a race of Ancients build portals and would add a Stargate like plot and I would add races from there, Legion of superheroes and Ben 10.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 katahn Apr 07, 2008 12:18:04	The boards here are a little quiet, so here's a topic for people to debate: how would you go about mixing a spelljammer setting in with a more traditional science fiction environment? Maybe the various D&D worlds are on the border of Star Trek's Federation? Perhaps the Star Wars Empire finds Toril? Maybe it's Dragonstar? My thought is it could be done and possibly even with only some minimal changes. 1. Solar systems would have to be solar-centric and the over-the-top-ultra-magical systems (like worlds as fruit on a giant space-tree for instance) would have to be taken away. Similarly flatworlds and such wouldn't exist, or at least not naturally at any rate... maybe they are constructed in some fashion? Air worlds become gas giants and fire worlds could either be multi-star systems or typical worlds covered in lava with high geothermal heat. 2. Air envelopes and gravity planes could simply be a side effect of the magic of the helm. Similarly the helm could protect against radiation hazards. 3. The phlogiston and crystal spheres are replaced with the former being a sort of hyperspace-esque dimension. Where a cyrstal sphere would be becomes the closest one can be to a star in order to open a gate to the flow. 4. Asteroid port cities either don't exist or have something like a helm to provide air/gravity and to protect from radiation. 5. Spheres like the Astromundi Cluster either don't exist or maybe that local area of space doesn't fully connect to the phlogiston.
#2 jaid Apr 07, 2008 21:26:09	if i wanted to play star trek/dragonstar/star wars/whatever, wouldn't it be easier to just pick up the rules for star trek/dragonstar/star wars/whatever and play it? the whole point of spelljammer is basically space fantasy. if i wanted science fiction, there's a bajillion (to use a technical term) other games out there that can do science fiction. i am not really aware of any other space fantasy games out there (someone else once posted a link to something they said was space fantasy, but i feel it was more post-apocalyptic fantasy than it was about space really).
#3 darthcestual Apr 08, 2008 7:31:13	Jaid makes a good point. However, if you're looking for resources & inspiration, snatch up Planescape. What I did for my SpellJammer and Fading Suns game was to convert each plane into it's own planet or system of planets that the players could explore, with the denizens of those planes made as aliens where needed. It worked great for SJ and our Fading Suns campaign was in the flavor of Outlaw Star, so it played well overall.
#4 katahn Apr 08, 2008 8:19:12	I'm not arguing that Spelljammer's core setting is inferior, or that the right thing to do is to blend it with traditional science fiction settings. That argument has been done to death pro and con. What I'm hoping for is a fun little debate on how one might mix Spelljammer with traditional sci-fi settings and retain as much of the flavor of the former as possible. So if you wanted to blend them, how would you do it and what rules (if any) would you modify in either direction?
#5 eldersphinx Apr 12, 2008 7:19:59	I think the first and foremost question you'll have to answer is how you avoid the Known Spheres being handed your sci-fi setting's equivalent of smallpox blankets. The tech gap (in communications, unified government, and similar 'soft' technologies, even moreso than such simple things as weapons and space drives) mean that Spelljammer's probably almost certainly doomed to not-so-slow assimilation by any sci-fi universe it comes into contact with.
#6 katahn Apr 14, 2008 12:09:31	The first assumption there is technology > magic and that need not be so. If you posit that anything technology can do magic can duplicate (and vice-versa "any sufficiently advanced technology...") then the answer to the "smallpox blankets" is simply "cure disease". The next question is whether or not your sci-fi setting has technology that can handle magical diseases ;) Backwater spelljamming worlds (like the Radiant Triangle systems as presented in the game core) would have some trouble. But who's to say the EIN, the Vodanni, the Mind Flayers, etc., wouldn't be capable of holding their own? Actually, that reminds me of something. The core rules say a spelljammer can land anywhere on a planet and fly through its atmosphere as easily as space right? So why hasn't the introduction of spelljammers completely revolutionized life on the core D&D worlds? Think about how rapid transit and air travel revolutionized our world... think about how being able to use spelljamming ships in military applications ranging from troop transport to running supplies to breaking sieges would impact a world.
#7 Silverblade_The_Enchanter Apr 14, 2008 23:37:04	Katahn cost, and many weird vagueries... ;) magic may work differenlty here and there.. folk may not think like we do... gods may ban it... etc
#8 katahn Apr 16, 2008 8:49:26	Katahn cost, and many weird vagueries... ;) magic may work differenlty here and there.. folk may not think like we do... gods may ban it... etc I house-ruled that spelljammer helms worked by interacting with the "Aether" a long time ago and that planetary bodies were effectively "islands" in the "aetherial sea". In order to land on a planet one had to find what amounted to an inlet or river that extended to the surface. Some of these rivers didn't go all the way down, some did but couldn't support ships above a certain weight limit. Helmsmen could make an intelligence check to find them, and on "core" spelljammer worlds the rivers were well-charted (so no check needed for an experienced pilot). The net effect was players couldn't land their ships somewhere I didn't like, and it provided an explanation as to why the Zhents or Thayans weren't using spelljammers for military dominance in the Realms. Now if one were to combine Spelljammer with something sci-fi'ish and preserve the feeling of the two as much as possible, maybe the "ether rivers" are the way to go. Of course maybe they aren't, as the fantasy feel of any given terrestrial world is going to be hosed either by flying sailing ships or by advanced air/space-craft from a technological civilization anyway. ;)
#9 jadehorde Apr 25, 2008 19:55:29	The first assumption there is technology > magic and that need not be so. If you posit that anything technology can do magic can duplicate (and vice-versa "any sufficiently advanced technology...") then the answer to the "smallpox blankets" is simply "cure disease". The next question is whether or not your sci-fi setting has technology that can handle magical diseases ;) Backwater spelljamming worlds (like the Radiant Triangle systems as presented in the game core) would have some trouble. But who's to say the EIN, the Vodanni, the Mind Flayers, etc., wouldn't be capable of holding their own? Actually, that reminds me of something. The core rules say a spelljammer can land anywhere on a planet and fly through its atmosphere as easily as space right? So why hasn't the introduction of spelljammers completely revolutionized life on the core D&D worlds? Think about how rapid transit and air travel revolutionized our world... think about how being able to use spelljamming ships in military applications ranging from troop transport to running supplies to breaking sieges would impact a world. I think it's a largely true assumption though. Anyone can use science and technology. Only people who have dedicated their lives to it can really use magic, unless you happen to have a large population of beings with spell-like abilities or have somehow gotten around how very difficult it is to craft even a single magic item. Which admittedly is completely possible in the broad range of crystal spheres but isn't exactly common though to be fair to advance science takes similar dedication. More importantly, it isn't direct combat that will spell their eventual assimilation. That was the point of the previous post. It is the fact that a tech world will likely have something like 1-3 orders of magnitude more people, if we assume it isn't some galactic empire and they will have a standard of living higher than anything found outside the magical elves type fantasy race or the highest echelons of a magical society. And this is talking about modern day Earth level tech (though to be fair more specifically industrial nations). You are right though that our medical tech isn't even on the level of a cure light wounds or cure disease spell (though I'd argue a more serious ailment requires HEAL at the very least). But go down a hundred years, let alone Star Trek or something, and only Raise Dead is off limits and that only because of ethical limitations. It's a hard sell that economically and socially, any Spelljammer power is going to be able to compete with mass production, agribusiness, worldwide communication and travel. Even the major ones like the IEN. Sure, the odd elites can do as well or even better (Raise Dead, Wish, planar travel, etc), but those farmers on that asteroid or near Kalaman are going look down at their backbreaking work (and feudal era agriculture IS backbreaking) and make a very simple choice to live a better life...even if as a second class wage slave in a megalopolis. The proof? We see it everyday on Earth. Admittedly, those migrant workers aren't leaving fantasy lands with access to actual magic, but honestly, how many common folk of Toril, Krynn, or Oerth even see midlevel magic, let alone benefit from it rather than be sacrificed to an evil god or eaten by a monster? And even in direct combat the only hope would be to have high level assassins and mages off key personnel. It's not like I'm expecting a Protection from Normal Missiles to halt phaser fire or even a tank shell. It goes to 100 Elven warships vs 10,000 sci-fi battlecruisers (due to massproduction and modern logistics) capable of attacking on the order of lightseconds away. A Charm Person might sway things. I've seen that argument, but then you just make sure that orders are broadly distributed and any odd deviations land that person in the brig.
#10 Angel_Black May 17, 2008 17:29:32	The boards here are a little quiet, so here's a topic for people to debate: how would you go about mixing a spelljammer setting in with a more traditional science fiction environment? Maybe the various D&D worlds are on the border of Star Trek's Federation? Perhaps the Star Wars Empire finds Toril? I´d just go Asimov with some Star Wars races and place them in the universe with the spelljammer technology, to add more troubles i would say that some centuries ago a race of Ancients build portals and would add a Stargate like plot and I would add races from there, Legion of superheroes and Ben 10.