I'm a 4E fan and a Spelljammer fan, and I'm planning a big campaign of the former in the later in the near future. I've read some of what others have attempted to revise of this old setting and I have my own ideas, but in terms of pure mechanics, what kind of elements do you expect would need to be dropped, what 4E design concepts must be considered for addition, and what can't be dropped from SJ to keep it in flavour.
The economics of the setting must be handled carefully, but I always felt the original SJ setting was most abused because of poor economic considerations.
Thought must be put in to making piloting a ship in combat is more of a team sport, ala Saga system with Helmsman as pilot, riggers helping manuverability and speed, weapons operations, spotter, leader, etc.
Weapons and spell ranges have been limited back to tighten the game board but reaching across the old one hex to a passing ship was part of the game that shouldn't be dropped lightly.
Some kind of faction based benefit or power to the ship combat might be good to make some factions distinctive.
A framework of sorting the encounter combats to make a ship into a dungeon, breaking up levels or rooms but being fluid enough to not overwelm a party for not taking 5 minute rests nor piling everyone on a ship on the players like the deck is one room.
Anyone have any other thoughts on issues that should be addressed to make a 4e for Spelljammer?
Number 2... I would throw out alot of the stupid stuff--Scro, dumb penguin trader things, arguably even the Crystal Spheres and the phlogiston, which were hamfisted means to preserve rules dynamics between established campaign worlds that are no longer needed
Thanks for the reply Yakman,
May I ask, number 1 did you find the ship combat rules, the ship 'magical physics' rules, or the ship construction rules were the most awkward for 'ship mechanics'.
#2 Did you find that a lot of the stupid stuff was simply poorly flavoured or described, or just irredeemable?
I ask because I found the Dohwar reflavoured as a simple benign intelligent indigenous race gave a decent quality of 'Fantastic locals in need of heroes', at least more usable than Gungans, and renaming the spheres for flavourtext value they weren't that constricting, for instance labeling them as 'Sea of x' rather than 'y space' example 'Sea of vanishing stars' my players were interested in visiting even after realising it was Krynnspace.
Thanks for the reply Yakman,
May I ask, number 1 did you find the ship combat rules, the ship 'magical physics' rules, or the ship construction rules were the most awkward for 'ship mechanics'.
#2 Did you find that a lot of the stupid stuff was simply poorly flavoured or described, or just irredeemable?
I ask because I found the Dohwar reflavoured as a simple benign intelligent indigenous race gave a decent quality of 'Fantastic locals in need of heroes', at least more usable than Gungans, and renaming the spheres for flavourtext value they weren't that constricting, for instance labeling them as 'Sea of x' rather than 'y space' example 'Sea of vanishing stars' my players were interested in visiting even after realising it was Krynnspace.
#1- I've never found any of the economic/construction data in D&D to be any good whatsoever, and there was just reams and reams of it in Spelljammer. Throw it all out I say. PCs aren't shipwrights. The great heroes don't build their ships--they take them or are given them. It's not like we read chapter after chapter in the Argonautica describing how they build the Argo, or see the Millenium Falcon get built...
That's a start, but the ship-to-ship combat always seemed rather complicated, but unfulfilling...
#2 - Most of the stupid stuff is irredeemable. I mean, the Dohwar? C'mon.... it's just plain stupid. I would throw all of it out, including the Crystal Spheres and the Phlogiston. There are other things that never made sense, like the "Imperial Elven Navy" which supposedly united elves from multiple spheres into one body politic which is never hinted at in the core settings... or the fact that any rational creature suffers a neogi to live yet they are prominent traders... or the Scro... Elminster in a business suit... Starbeasts... the Dwarven ships that look like a face... the Giff... Ptah... or any of the stupid inside jokes that permeate the material.
Further, the setting's tone would need to be revamped to deal with the Points of Light mentality. Spelljammer is a pretty vibrant setting, which lacks the overarching sense of doom and decay that is 4E. One would think that space is an easy enough place to make Points of Light work, but the more I look at it, the more that Spelljammer just doesn't translate well to PoL, and the more that has to get thrown out the window.
The economics of spelljammer was always a fiasco, the huge cost of helms making them the true prize of piracy, also making piracy a death sentance as you would nearly always leave surrendered enemy to die of foul air without propulsion.
I have to say I recall the foundation of the ship to ship to be a bit of fun, but with issues, for example PC helmsman being screwed for spells. The 4E phillosophy that the encounter is always arranged to be a challenge to the players makes a great foundation for fair fights rather than the erratic random size and purpose of enemy vessels letting players pick and chose thier victims.
#2, I'd like to say you are being harsh but I feel much the same about Gnomes.
Points of Light is less a concept that Spelljammer merges well with as much as Spelljammer was the original Points of Light. The danger of spelljammer is it really needs a strong backbone plot to motivate the actions lest the heroes turn merchant or randomly search for pirates.
I'm a 4E fan and a Spelljammer fan, and I'm planning a big campaign of the former in the later in the near future. I've read some of what others have attempted to revise of this old setting and I have my own ideas, but in terms of pure mechanics, what kind of elements do you expect would need to be dropped, what 4E design concepts must be considered for addition, and what can't be dropped from SJ to keep it in flavour.
The economics of the setting must be handled carefully, but I always felt the original SJ setting was most abused because of poor economic considerations.
Thought must be put in to making piloting a ship in combat is more of a team sport, ala Saga system with Helmsman as pilot, riggers helping manuverability and speed, weapons operations, spotter, leader, etc.
Weapons and spell ranges have been limited back to tighten the game board but reaching across the old one hex to a passing ship was part of the game that shouldn't be dropped lightly.
Some kind of faction based benefit or power to the ship combat might be good to make some factions distinctive.
A framework of sorting the encounter combats to make a ship into a dungeon, breaking up levels or rooms but being fluid enough to not overwelm a party for not taking 5 minute rests nor piling everyone on a ship on the players like the deck is one room.
Anyone have any other thoughts on issues that should be addressed to make a 4e for Spelljammer?
-Allow any skilled pilot to fly a ship. The Mana/Spellpoints are essentially used as fuel and can be done at regular internals or us a mana funace the burns up magic items.
-Miniatures, we need miniatures very badly for this system. Right now I use a few of the original card stock, mixed with Fan made card stock, Pirates CCG ships, and Rocketmen cards.
-Planetary mana streams. (Think of the mana lines from RIFTS) A ship needs to follow these to ports or water from orbit. Keeps players and monsters from conquering and traveling to everything on a planet as well as explaining why planets are not completely explored. (I use this in my house rules and players love the idea)
-Ship combat works great from those who like numbers, but as my wife likes to say..she wants to Role-play not Roll-play. Keep the original system for those who want it and add a quick play system as well (like pirates CCG) which can be included with the minis. You start getting 10 ships versus 10 ships, say bye bye to your evening to the dice.
-More star maps and connections ... Remember the FR Atlas? you hade the entire planet and one star map. Expand on that. It would be great to show a connection to most all the spheres. A user friendly galactic map even showing where fleets had control. Are you in Giff controlled space? Beholder? Elven?
-Electronic ship building system for the DM. I want to build a wooden galleon, and have a rich player with a pile of gold.... point and click. Oak? Ironbark? Weirwood? Zalantar? Serren Wood? Weapon hard points. Sail types, etc. Geberate and assign crew. Add players, off we go! Make it quick are dirty with pre planned templates then have a deeper customization. The wizard wants his lab on board but not next to the room with the dirty minotaur. Etc ...
I think the prices were in line with the worlds. It would take a kings fortune to sponsor a fleet of vessels and a helm was icing above that. The Spelljammer itself dropped "seeds" of helms to get those players out into space to find adventure. A good DM can handle economics (especially the wish economy)
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I got tired of waiting for WotC to revamp spelljammer itself, and did my own thing, though it appears that The Plane Above will have rules for ship-to-ship combat, boarding actions, and chasing and conquering enemy ships. I plan to incorporate the official rules for ship combat when that supplement is finally published. In the meantime, for my ideal 4e Spelljammer reboot:
"Finally, beyond even the stars, lie the farthest reaches of the Dragon Above: the endless expanse of the Astral Sea" - Eberron Campaign Guide pp. 8.
- Solar systems exist inside crystal spheres which themselves float as enclosed dominions in the Astral Sea. Eberron's campaign setting would seem to suggest the crystal spheres exist, and I think there is a similar passage in the Forgotten Realms book as well, so it made sense to me to keep the concept. I still have the option of having worlds in a universe like our own; spelljammers can plane shift to the Astral Sea, and the starry ocean could be a fantasy version of hyperspace, but established settings could easily fit in crystal spheres floating in the Astral Sea.
- Gravity, Heat, Air, & Radiation: As with real-world physics, ships in Wildspace have to contend with these hazards of space travel. There is no binary gravity; ships aren't massive enough to generate gravity on their own. However ships are enchanted with several rituals to generate an artificial gravity plane, encase the ship in an air envelope, provide climate control, and protect the occupants from radiation exposure.
- Ships are like creatures: Various vehicle stats from the Adventurer's Vault to the Manual of the Planes to the latest dungeon adventure treat ships like creatures.
- Consistency in ship design: The old 2e designs were known for their stats not matching their deck plans. In the hands of talented artists like Silverblade, modern 3D programs can make sure that the deck plans match the model, and consistent rules can ensure that the stats match the artwork. No, PCs aren't shipwrights but I want a set of design rules to use so that the stats for ships are consistent. I have something I wrote that is a work in progress, but I'd really like to see WotC make an official document so that either they or I can make a "Ship Builder" analogue to Monster Builder. Also, the MotP prices a spelljammer like a magic item; what if the design rules gave you a budget based on item level and cost, and you used that to buy the ship stats?
- Flexible ship combat rules: We'll know what the official rules for ship-to-ship combat will be like in April with the release of The Plane Above, but I hope we'll have something that lets us run combats like we do with characters, and give options to role-play the encounter like a skill challenge.
- Self-powered helms: In my reboot, anybody may pilot a spelljammer at its baseline performance. If you have an Arcane, Divine, or Psionic power, then you may channel encounter powers into the helm to gain a tactical speed boost, and daily powers to gain a spelljamming speed boost. An official reboot should ensure than anybody can take the helm, but some are able to improve the ship's performance by channeling magical energy into it.
- Integrated helms: The point about helms being the most expensive item aboard ship is definitely valid, and something I have to re-think for my own campaign. Maybe helms must be permanently bound to a ship.
- No spelljamming artifice monopoly: While the classical major and minor helms (they can lift up to 500 tons and up to 1,000 tons of weight in my reboot) are popular and sold by the ubiquitous Mercane, spelljamming artifice has been independently discovered by many spacefaring organizations.
- Spelljamming fully integrated with campaign worlds: It bothered me that places like Realmspace practically ignored spelljamming. Eberron did a fantastic job of integrating airships into the campaign world (and in my spelljammer reboot, spelljammers are a logical step up from airships- and are in fact heavily modified elemental airships), other worlds in the official spelljammer setting should have similar integration. Maybe the official spelljammer campaign guide should describe a crystal sphere describing various planets that integrate spelljamming into their society and that fit into the Points of Light setting, but the worlds are left vague enough for DMs to fill in their own details.
Anyway, I'd love to see WotC do a spelljammer reboot with a consistent setting and ruleset. If they did, I'd happily toss out my own amateur work.
Missing this thread is what I get for taking a sabbatical from the forum. Let’s see what I can say.
I’ve been working on a Spelljammer/Planescape merger, so while not everything I’ve been working on is valid, some do apply.
Spelljammers: I agree that your ship is something that your players should just have if the purpose of the game is Spelljamming. Management of the ship and the crew are important for Spelljammer game, but it is a such a huge enough deal that it should be managed separately of equipment resources.
As for the statics of the ship... keep it simple. I would make the call that the Spelljammer described in the Manual of Planes is the smallest and fastest craft that can support the enchantments needed for sphere to sphere travel: the type of things adventures use. Larger ships exist, who will either be boarded or send boarding parties aboard small super fast ships. Leading to...
Combat: If the Planes Above will give us information on ship to ship combat, then I’ll reserve judgment until it is released. Given what we have now, combat in spell jammer would be complicated skill challenges, either attempting to board the enemy ship or fending off boarders while running away.
Fending off boarders would be an active role for the party since it involves the combat they’re actually good at, field combat. Actual naval ship combat isn’t something that characters are equipped for. Of course a well designed skill challenge should let the players take an active role, since the dramatic save the day action is what players live for.
Phlogiston: It’s good as a connector tool, particular if used as the layer between Astral Plane and the Elemental Chaos, but it’s mechanics need some thinning. Fire can be more explosive, but not to the point that it neuters those who have chosen fire powers. In the same light, keeping the gods out shouldn’t neuter Divine power classes: instead it should block divination rituals that use religion as a skill check. I have one more point on the subject, but it’s more of an original idea reasoning behind why clerics where neutered in the original spell jammer mechanically.
Factions: Certain factions are important for the feel of spelljammer, but it was mostly because of their ship design. The Elven moth ship, the Neogi spider ships; their factions could change but the ships help put the fantasy in space fantasy. The beholders and the mind flayers, meanwhile, take the role of aliens in the Phlogiston, making things bizarre while still solidly D&D. Ultimately, this is where the most cutting and original creation has to take place, but it’s important not to lose what was good.
Spheres: I’d keep the term sphere to describe the solar system the campaign worlds take place in, but dismiss the ‘crystal’ part of the term as being universal. Every sphere should have a boundary as unique and individual as the campaign world itself. While huge crystal sphere shouldn’t be ruled out, it shouldn’t be universal.
Spelljammer would basically need a book of ships and places, with rules for both.
I quite liked the Shadow of the Spider Moon setting, which reminded me of the old Astromundi Cluster, so I think something similar would work well. The setting would have planets of differant types to visit, mysterious asteroids and a trading hub like the Rock of Bral. Bring back the neogi and the scro, battle githyanki raiders, get a little Xill-work done, turn to a life of trade or piracy - - it's all good.
I'd use the dragonborn in place of the "advanced" lizard folk, and I liked the gnome junk ships from the Shadow of the Spider Moon (Tinker Gnomes belong on Krynn).I can take or leave the Dowar (ditch the Spaham) and the Elven Navy, but you leave me my Giff! My sweet, gun-toting, trigger-happy Giff - -
This would allow WotC to get four separate campaign settings down for a foundation and then use Spelljammer - something more unique than Planescape (IMO) and therefore a more worthy candidate - to connect these settings as well as future ones. I'm not saying Planescape should never be updated for 4E, just that WotC seems to be publishing settings pretty different from each other: typical high fantasy, dungeonpunk, near-planetary romance, and then gothic horror. Something that hints of sci-fi would be a good option
Skill training should be the minimum for helm usage.
Also, I thought some of the crystal shell physics were interesting, but the phligston (sic) was a bit over-the-top.
You could have like a pilot class, or some campaign themed one.
In my personal reboot, crystal spheres are the planar boundaries of finite-sized material planes, and the stars are actually portals to the Astral Sea or portals to nearby astral domains. If you're inside the sphere and you plane-shift to the Astral Sea, you'll arrive in a corresponding location in the Astra Sea. You won't see the night sky of the crystal sphere, just a whole bunch of portals arranged in a spherical pattern that will lead you back into the sphere. There's also a rumor of an infinitely sized material plane not unlike our own universe...
Since I wanted to bring back the phlogiston in some form, here is a cross-post from the Spelljammer forums over at the Piazza. Imagine something like the Galactic Codex of Mass Effect/Mass Effect 2, but done up for Spelljammer...
Spelljamming Speed
Ships may travel through wildspace and the Astral Sea at a rapid pace caled spelljamming speed. With modern artifice, spelljamming helms enable ships to travel at a peak 10 million miles per hour. At that rate, ships will cover 100 million miles within a 10 hour travel day. Advanced spelljamming helms may travel faster, and a skilled wielder of magic can use rituals combined with their own personal energies to boost the ship's speed.
Traveling at such a high velocity would be fatal if you collided with something as small as a pebble were it not for a magical side effect of spelljamming speed: you are phased while spelljamming. Small objects pass right through you so quickly, you won't have time to even perceive them. For larger objects such as the occasional spelljamming ship, asteroids, comets, planets, and other similarly large celestial bodies, the helm instantly matches the object's velocity, bringing the ship and everything on it to a halt. Other than a slight lurch as you enter and leave spelljamming speed, you'll hardly notice the acceleration.
While traveling at spelljamming speed, the helm produces a multi-colored, comet-like vapor trail centered on the ship. Each helm produces a unique spectral signature, thus making it possible to identify individual ships. Known as phlogiston, the plume makes spelljamming possible, but at the same time, it also increases the flammability of all objects within the vapor.
So while spelljamming speed is a quick and efficient way to travel, it's not without risk.
***
Game Mechanics
- Anybody can pilot a helm, but if you have a power source like Arcane, Divine, or Primal, then you can channel magical energy into the helm to improve its speed.
- All objects in the phlogiston plume gain Vulnerable 10 fire, and all attack powers with the fire keyword that successfully hit are treated as critical hits.
- After exiting spelljamming speed, it takes 1d6 rounds for the vapor to dissipate.
- An Ace Pilot (a character theme) can Battlejam across the grid. Battlejamming is the art of moving very quickly around the grid at spelljamming speed, effectively teleporting the ship.
- An Ace Pilot has other tricks, such as spelljamming in place and causing a blast of phlogiston to ignite and engulf nearby objects.
- Move it to the astral sea
- drop air envelopes (just do air everywhere) (Still need to read The Plane Above to see how they do it.)
- Helms are quasi magic items that require a ritual to operate. Sort of like the creation forges in eberon. Think of it as several rituals bound into one and synced up. Each casting could get a cirtain amount of time based on how much you exceed the base the skill check. Larger ships requiring higher base checks. These rituals are bound into the ships themselves. So no taking a helm and selling it.
- Sort of drop crystal spheres. I plan to use more of a material plane bubble. When near it a ship can plane shift into the material plane. This removes the massive solar system issue and allows small demi-planes and such to be accessable for a more POL feel.
- Gravity, I'll probably do it however it is in The Plane Above.
Asking to remove all the crazy stuff from Spelljammer is like asking to remove all the grimdark elements from Dark Sun. Like...
"Hey, you know what we need to do to make Dark Sun accessible? Make it a better world! Add in some forests! And some oceans, because what do those people drink? Oh, and planar travel between Athas and other places is now open. And add some gods to it finally, will you?"
No. You don't do that. The postapocalyptic feel is what makes Dark Sun fun, just like all the crazy stuff makes Spelljammer fun. Giff, silly penguins in garish clothes, philosophers sitting on asteroids and draining your Intelligence when you get near, gliding monkeys, (miniature) giant space hamsters, space orcs, crazy surgeon praying mantises... that's what makes it fun. Since WotC never removed the essential stuff from Dark Sun, I don't believe they would from Spelljammer.
What elements we do need in a Spelljammer 4E adaptation IMO:
-Crystal spheres and phlogiston. That's what makes Spelljammer Spelljammer.
-Giff, Dowhar and all the other silly races and monsters, including Tinker Gnomes. "In space, the weirder, the better"
-All the magical physics stuff
You know what will we do without?
-All the restrictions on Spelljamming. Anyone should be able to do it, given proper magical training, without draining his resources. Well, maybe except Giff. You don't want to get into a spelljammer driven by a Giff.
-Complicated ship-to-ship combat, spelljamming shocks etc. Simplify it, so even the spelljamming player can do something else than sit and hope he doesn't die of ship damage.
What can we add?
-More crazy races! I want hamster-men, a result of a genetical experiment of some crazy Tinker Gnome who crossed his niece with her miniature giant space hamster. I want flaming meteorite demons who just rush headlong into everything. I want... you get the feel.
-Integration with other established worlds (maybe except Athas and Ravenloft, because of their uniqueness).
That's what I think about it, and I can only hope it will go this way, if Wizards look favorably on Spelljammer some day.
EDIT: I forgot to add, I think it needs to be released along with technology-based power source - to facilitate for all the crazy tech, firearms etc. usually associated with Spelljammer.
Since WotC never removed the essential stuff from Dark Sun, I don't believe they would from Spelljammer.
But they have already created spelljammers that travel the astral sea. I doubt they would undo that. In some repect I think if they were to do Spelljammer, they would coming it with Planescape. As for keeping some elements like Dohwar and their flying pigs, I think they would focus more on the Planescape end and ignore the sillier creatures from Spelljammer.
Since WotC never removed the essential stuff from Dark Sun, I don't believe they would from Spelljammer.
But they have already created spelljammers that travel the astral sea. I doubt they would undo that. In some repect I think if they were to do Spelljammer, they would coming it with Planescape. As for keeping some elements like Dohwar and their flying pigs, I think they would focus more on the Planescape end and ignore the sillier creatures from Spelljammer.
I was writing this before reading The Plane Above, but yeah, there's a lot of similar stuff. But it still lacks the stuff that made Spelljammer so unique - all the craziness. That's made Spelljammer attractive. Doing Spelljammer without it, is like making Athas greener and better. It just wouldn't be Spelljammer at all - it's what defines it and makes the setting still known.
Since WotC never removed the essential stuff from Dark Sun, I don't believe they would from Spelljammer.
But they have already created spelljammers that travel the astral sea. I doubt they would undo that. In some repect I think if they were to do Spelljammer, they would coming it with Planescape. As for keeping some elements like Dohwar and their flying pigs, I think they would focus more on the Planescape end and ignore the sillier creatures from Spelljammer.
To be fair, the Pirates of Gith already took spelljamming ships onto the Astral Plane in 2e Spelljammer. What 2e lacked was a method for most people to follow them there (or to get to other planes). In the fan community this is usually referred to as "Planejamming".
I don't think that Planejamming is such a bad idea, but feel that it should be a minority thing (with most people either doing normal Spelljamming (on the Mateiral Plane - wildspace and the flow) or normal Planewalking (without needing to fly around in ships).