According to the way I understand things the Astral Sea is a endless plane filled with Dominions that are almost like planes unto themselves. The Elemental Chaos is another endless plane filled with Realms that are like planes unto themselves. If we extend that idea to the world then you could think of Worldspace as an endless plane filled with Crystal Spheres that are like different planes unto themselves. Spelljammer would (obviously) fit quite well into this idea. It would even solve a problem I raised a while ago where we would have to deal with Feyspace and Shadowspace. Because every Crystal Sphere is like it's own plane then they wouldn't all have a corresponding Feywild or Shadowfell.
On the other hand Worldspace (as I'm calling it) might not exist. They haven't verified it (although there have been some hints). Plus why would anyone sail Worldspace when they can sail the Astral Sea or the Elemental Chaos?
What does everything think? What impact, if any, will the Manual of the Planes have on Spelljammer?
But are worlds co-existante anymore? Is Toril on the same material plane then Oerth, for exemple?
I think that is still the case but you have a problem. 4E FR is 100 years in the future. Dragonlance's timeline has the entire planet being moved to another sphere at some point. There has been some discussion of going for an earlier time period for a Greyhawk setting. So intergrating the settings in a single space is difficult unless you ignore the previous spelljammer and make all the existing settings at the same time.
The 4th ed guys hated the old planar arrangements apparently. Spelljammer and Planescape were built around those. I think the 4th ed guys are goingto loot whatever ideas they think are "cool" from Planescape and Ravenloft for Manual of the Planes and pretty much ignore spelljammer.
Now, the relationship of Realmspace to other crystal spheres has been barely touched upon, except for this bit from the FRCG I noted before (where'd the old threads go???):
In the beginning existed a misty realm of timeless
nothingness, crafted by Ao the Hidden One from the
raw elemental bedlam of the Phlogiston. Within this
dim sphere, several worlds drifted upon the Sea of
Night. Though the worlds were lifeless and barren at
this time, powerful beings of manifest entropy and
elemental might coveted them. The name of their
kind has been lost to the ages; the few sages who
today know of their existence refer to them simply as
the primordials.
So, that gives us a crystal sphere and Phlogiston. If the MoP leaves us with that it means that SJ fits into 4e cosmology fine. I'm not expecting more than that for a while.
So, that gives us a crystal sphere and Phlogiston. If the MoP leaves us with that it means that SJ fits into 4e cosmology fine. I'm not expecting more than that for a while.
I did not know about this. This is incredibly cool. Good find. WotC keeps dropping subtle hints about Spelljammer throughout their product line but this is way more than that. This is practically confirmation. While this doesn't completely convince me that we'll see a 4e Spelljammer it gives me hope.
Someone should do some article proposals!
city of brass exerpt
Travelers within the Elemental Chaos commonly make use of planar dromonds to reach the City of Brass, and less often find their way to the city on spelljammers, lightning skiffs, or chaos gliders. Experienced dromond captains claim that all magma flows and seas of liquid fire lead eventually to the Sea of Fire and the harbor of the City of Brass, particularly if one is traveling from another efreet settlement. The powerful will of the efreets creates stable, navigable channels of fiery liquid connecting their settlements to the capital city.
Now, I wonder how much of this stuff is going to be covered in the MoP rather than alluded to?
Wizards is actually doing a clever thing (though yes, fans of settings with an established flavor will hate it). By working spelljammer, ravenloft, Sigil, etc. into the core they're removing that "weird campaign setting" stigma that reduced the interest in those settings the first time around. If spelljammer is already established as a way to get around in the planes or the primes, then if they do release a sourcebook it will have a much wider audience.
But... don't hate me... please no monocle-wearing hippos this time!
But... don't hate me... please no monocle-wearing hippos this time!
Seconded.
You know I didn't even think when I read that Manual of the Planes excerpt that we might get spelljammer vehicle rules. I just thought yay spelljammer was confirmed. It would be nice to see rules but to be honest I want spelljammer to have it's own sourcebook. It doesn't need the full on campaign setting threebookapalooza but it would be nice to have one book.
Then again maybe it will be in Adventurer's Vault 2?
honest I want spelljammer to have it's own sourcebook. It doesn't need the full on campaign setting threebookapalooza but it would be nice to have one book.
Then again maybe it will be in Adventurer's Vault 2?
from your mouth to go...the developers ears...
Realistically though, I think all we're looking at so far is a name drop...basically a tip of the hat to the old school fans by a writer or editor.
It's a far cry from this to actual support for Spelljammer.
even if they do a setting update....don't expect anything like what was done in the past.
Any new iteration will be written for the new d&d fanbase and will likely leave out or change anything existing fans care about.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here I just don't want more of the fanbase disappointed like the FR fans were.
So prepare for the worst and maybe just maybe you might get a little gold. Maybe.
The 4th ed guys hated the old planar arrangements apparently. Spelljammer and Planescape were built around those.
Actually, Spelljammer products made very little use of the planes. There was mention of them in The Astromundi Cluster (as a weird Hotel California effect) but spelljamming is pitched as an alternative travel method to planehopping (later to be planewalking), so in a way the two concepts are rivals.
If you stick with the crystal spheres, you can do anything you want inside the spheres (including making customised cosmologies for a single sphere) and it doesn't effect the rest of the SJ universe.
So I don't see a problem for SJ here (over and above the general problem of 4e invalidating vast amounts of previous D&D canon that somehow connects in with SJ).
I keep hearing a persistant rumor that 4.5 will be coming out for Xmas 2009,perhaps we'll get a few alternate settings like Spelljammer,Dark Sun,D20 modern and etc.
I've seen a ton of people making jokes about 4.5 coming out soon, but that is either people poking their tongue out at WotC or being outright sarcastic. I don't think I've seen a single person who honestly believes that WotC would do an edition turn around so quickly. They have already publically stated there will be no 4.5 and changing their position would make them loose a lot of face.
As for d20 Modern, it has nothing to do with D&D, so it could come out at any time. They can hold it back as long as they want, or bring it out very quickly. They could even continue with the 3rd edition d20 Modern if they wanted to.
What we really need for it to be the 'old spelljammer' (as much as that will ever be possible) is some sort of half-way point where you can sail and not be running into angels and devils and demons. Basically a Phlogiston and a way to get there without requiring an 18th level ritual.. Star Portals that you can fly to?
I'm thinking that not all of the settings need be included though. SJ makes sense for the Realms, and is alluded to in the new FRCG. I don't think that Athas or the Dragonlance world need be included in that cosmology at all - they're on alternate Material Planes where the Phlogiston and Spheres don't apply. Rather like our world ...
I keep hearing a persistant rumor that 4.5 will be coming out for Xmas 2009,perhaps we'll get a few alternate settings like Spelljammer,Dark Sun,D20 modern and etc.
Where did you hear this?? Nothing is slated on the product list for 09 and to be honest I don't think we really need a 4.5 particularly not at this point.