thanks
Mike
well I've alway suspposed likely entrances would be hidden in the lake that provides the city with water, and one near the docks for smugglers, and others maybe at the edge of the asteroid and thus near gravity plane? 
Towards that end, I had roughly mapped out the cargo caverns, the entrance to a lost dwarven city (but didn't map out the city itself), an abandoned secret pirate base (fully mapped, with secret entrances to the cargo caverns), a secret slaver complex (fully mapped and described, with secret entrances to the cargo caverns and to the basements of several older buildings in Bral), and a roughed vertical section through a long underdark series of tunnels that included traps, evidence of early occupation by illithids and beholders, long abandoned dwarven mines, an interesting cavern that sat at the Rock's gravity plane, a few outer-planar-creature encounters, and eventually culminating in a very ancient chamber where something very dangerous was once kept (carefully check the Timeline on that linked webpage). While that object is no longer there, I was planning to have a few other interesting things still present.
The PCs had gotten far enough in the campaign to clear out a building in Bral (which they were using as a home base) with a secret door in the basement that connected to the slaver complex. The tunnels between their basement and the complex are inhabited by a nasty andeloid, so they were in the process of gaining some levels before tackling it (and beyond). Alas, the campaign died out when the players moved away, so I never finished fleshing out the setting. Maybe some day.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more!
Including new Spelljammer ship models and Greyhawk's Underdark
Mike
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk melkot.com
has anyone written up stuff for the underdark on the Rock of Bral? I was wondering where to place the enterances?
Brilliant question Mike. The Rock is large enough, that I am sure that it would have something similar to this. Although, with Bral being fairly limited in size, I think it would be more like a large castle dungeon than the Underdark of Forgotten Realms.
Thinking about it from a "how to make it work" point of view, the size of an underdark would be strictly limited and its sources of food and water would also be limited. I think that would prevent it from having a large ecology independent of what is going on on the surface.
You either need to fill it with critters that don't need to eat (like undead) or make it take what it needs from the surface. I think that, if you work out how you want it to be, you might dictate how many links it will need to the Topside and Underside.
One thing that is interesting, is that Bral has a gravity plane (like a spelljamming ship) so you need to have a normal gravity Underdark and a reverse gravity Underderdark. (You could even have sections that were on the gravity plane itself and create some caves where everyone has to swim through the air. These could be great for people needing to learn zero gravity combat.)
well I've alway suspposed likely entrances would be hidden in the lake that provides the city with water, and one near the docks for smugglers, and others maybe at the edge of the asteroid and thus near gravity plane?
Having surface dwellers dig out tunnels in the lake would not seem a logical move, as that would cause the Underbral (or parts of the Underbral) to flood.
But it is possible that the lake area was originaly an open chasm (that later got filled with water). In that context, there might have been some logic to people creating tunnels in what would later become a lake. One logical reason to dig caves (and later tunnels) inside an (empty) lake, would be that they could make good hiding places for pirate ships. We know that Bral was formerly a pirate base, so that would fit. And when the Rock was later openly settled, and the lake was filled to help support a larger population, former pirate tunnels could be flooded and forgotten.
Another option is that people living under the surface could dig into the lake to obtain water. If this was done, you would either end up with them causing a catastrophic flood of most parts of the Underbral close to the gravity plane (isolating the topside caverns from the bottomside caverns) or they could know they are digging into water and build some sort of u-bend cavern system that allows them to do some sort of controlled flooding of a "hidden lake". If some sort of group did this in secrecy and "stole" the water very slowly, the surface dwellers would provide new water to top up the surface lake.
Whatever way you did it, you could create a "bonus water supply" that could support additional hidden people inside the Rock.
(Hidden plants could give you a hidden source of air and a hidden source of food.)
We already know (from canon) that the docks have caves that feature lifts up to the surface of the Topside.
And we already know that the Underbral was previously occupied by illithids, beholders and dwarves (in that order). So we can have a guess at where these three spacefaring races would have tunneled into the Rock.
Illithids may dig into natural caves.
Beholders can dig vertical shafts, so there should be some of those. They might end up as wells or air shafts.
Dwarves would probably dig into caves too. But they could also build rock doors, that provide "invisible" docking caves. And dwarves would be good for creating sealed off areas, that have not yet been discovered. (The dwarves could also dig up something hidden from the illithid or beholder time, or even something from earlier.)
On top of that, there are the rumors of (Juna) symbols. So some weird stuff could be appropriate.
Back in the day, in an age where I had more time, I began designing a branch of my SJ campaign for a new group of PCs born on Bral that began with city-type adventures, had moved into an early short-hop spelljamming phase, and would end up in Bral's underdark after.
Sounds interesting.
Towards that end, I had roughly mapped out the cargo caverns, the entrance to a lost dwarven city (but didn't map out the city itself), an abandoned secret pirate base (fully mapped, with secret entrances to the cargo caverns), a secret slaver complex (fully mapped and described, with secret entrances to the cargo caverns and to the basements of several older buildings in Bral), and a roughed vertical section through a long underdark series of tunnels that included traps, evidence of early occupation by illithids and beholders, long abandoned dwarven mines, an interesting cavern that sat at the Rock's gravity plane, a few outer-planar-creature encounters, and eventually culminating in a very ancient chamber where something very dangerous was once kept (carefully check the Timeline on that linked webpage). While that object is no longer there, I was planning to have a few other interesting things still present.
This sounds very logical. Do you still have your partial maps and notes?
The PCs had gotten far enough in the campaign to clear out a building in Bral (which they were using as a home base) with a secret door in the basement that connected to the slaver complex. The tunnels between their basement and the complex are inhabited by a nasty andeloid, so they were in the process of gaining some levels before tackling it (and beyond). Alas, the campaign died out when the players moved away, so I never finished fleshing out the setting. Maybe some day.
Now that you have done a lot of work on Greyhawk's Underdark, I suppose you might have some new ideas, that you might not have thought of before.
Thanks for the ideas tips. I was thinking of starting a new 2e Spelljammer campaign with the PCs at first level and I thought the underdark link to the rock was a neat idea to explore at higher levels.
Sounds good. Don't forget to check out other sources, as well as the AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set, SJR5 Rock of Bral and SJA2 Skull & Crossbows. There are mentions of Bral in SJA2 the Cloakmaster Cycle and the little known Endless Quest: A Wild Ride (from SJ's sequel - Wildspace).
it supplies most of the water for the Rock, and dries up every few months, then ships haul a comet or such and dump it in the chasm...
IDEA #1) "The Edge" at the gravity plane, where you sort of have to play mountain goat with a parachute to jump from the upper side of the Rock to the lower side, without drifting away....What if, the PCs miss their jump, but instead of drifting off into the gravity plane, they are instead sucked into the black hole/cave opening that is nearly imperceptible from either top or bottom, this cave being the well hidden opening to the Underdark.
IDEA #2) Was to have the Rock turn out the be, not a "rock" after all, but rather really a long lost piece of The Shattered Sphere, namely: the Illithids' precious missing Sunslayer, with their missing god/avatar Lugribossk still asleep deep within the heart of it. And since it never really tells us what exactly the Sunslayer was (or maybe it did and I missed it), I farther went on to ask myself, what if the Sunslayer had actually been a giant space dragon?
Farther going on the What ifs I asked, What if their was a section of the Rock that was all "hush-hush" and almost no one knew about it, but every one sort of knew of it, in a sort of "Area 51 government base that isn't there" sort of way. That section being a mountain shaped like a dragon, that every one knows it "out there" some where, but no one really knows where (funny the Rock being so small and all, but, whatever).
Anyways my PCs end up finding it in a sort of "Ravenloft mists suddenly appear and there it is" sort of way, so they head up the mountain and find it's not a mountain, but rather the skeleton of a giant dragon, long since dead and buried by thousands of years of debris building up over it, and now the only thing exposed is the skull itself, the mouth of which forming a tunnel, which, in turn is an entrance to the Underdark and leads to a renegade cult of Illithads that have been safe guarding their comatose god all these years in secret. My PC's would end up waking up the god Lugribossk, who turns out to be none other than Cthulhu, the old evil Ancient One, himself. (Who normally should not be seen in a D&D adventure, but heck, I just think finding Cthulhu hidden deep inside the Rock would be ... uhm... well, you know .... cool in a freaky ironic sort of way.)
And why would the god Lugribossk, be sleeping inside of a giant (now dead) space dragon, I have no idea. Maybe it turns out it was already dead and the Sunslayer was built using the remains of a dragon? Who knows.
END OF IDEA...
Okay, so I know this strays far from the "official" story line quite a bit, (Okay, a heck of a lot, and the way I see it in my mind it strays off track in a very Monty Python vs Gamma World sort of way, with vampire bunnies guarding the entrance, but that's just the way my mind works, so, whatever. ) But yeah, I was just rereading my copy of "The SunDeath" (in Adventures of the Shattered Sphere, from The Astromundi Cluster Boxed Set) and thought "Hey, what if..." and went from there and this was the end result of my streaming thoughts of what if.
Added note on my "personal theory" about the Underdark. Any one here watch Doctor Who? You know how the TARDIS is tiny on the outside and bigger on the inside, because it's sort of an alternate dimension in space that always stays in the exact same place, yet doesn't really stay in the same place at all? Well, Bral being so small and all (only 1 mile across - heck the tiny little beach I live on is 7 miles long and it's a TINY beach! So, gives you some perspective as to how tiny Bral is.)
Well, I always thought of the Underdark as a place that is always the same no matter where it is, that that it, in itself is not actually under the ground, but rather is a dimension that exists elsewhere and the cave entrances into it are not really caves at all, but rather riffs (portals) through time and space, so that no matter where you are, you always end up in the EXAT SAME Underdark, every time.
Now granted each opening or portal takes you to a different part of the Underdark, so that it seems like it's a different Underdark, and the Underdark being so big, you go come and go several times, never realizing it was all the same place, because you'd never really end up in the same section of it ... but if you explore long enough eventually you'll find parts of the Underdark you were in before and thus realize you are in the same underdark. And therefor you CAN in fact have miles and miles of Forgotten Realm Underdark exist "beneath" the Rock, seeing how it isn't really beneath anything at all!
In other words, I see the Underdark as being a sort of "alternate universe" sort of place that is endlessly huge and connects to every other place at lots of various points. This could also translate into leaving one campaign setting and cming out into another one if you enter and exist the Underdark from different opening: say entering from Faerun and existing on Bral?
Well, that's how I run the Underdark in my campaigns at least. I find it links the various setting places together better, by doing it that way: using the Underdark as a sort of "void in space" that connects all of the various D&D world settings together...uhm...I also use The Underdark to connect my D&D settings to my non-D&D settings, like Everquest, Gamma World, Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu, Mansions of Madness, Star Trek, GURPS, etc. That way, I end up with one big huge GIANT campaign that just goes on and on and on forever, and can explain how PC (and NPC) characters from one game can end up having adventures in the setting from another campaign ... Mr Spockwith The Doctor in the TARDIS lands on an Illithid Squid Ship and helps space elves battle Darth Vader and his amy of Giant Hampster Clonetroopers anyone?
It's important to remember that the lake in Bral is NOT a permanent fixture! ;)
it supplies most of the water for the Rock, and dries up every few months, then ships haul a comet or such and dump it in the chasm...
I didn't realise that. I'll have to re-read my sourcebooks.
It kind of makes The Rock of Bral uninhabitable, if it would run out of water without constantly being resupplied.
If Bral is like that, and if other asteroids are similar, you end up with a Wildspace full of people who are constantly struggling at the edge of extinction.
IDEA #1) "The Edge" at the gravity plane, where you sort of have to play mountain goat with a parachute to jump from the upper side of the Rock to the lower side, without drifting away....What if, the PCs miss their jump, but instead of drifting off into the gravity plane, they are instead sucked into the black hole/cave opening that is nearly imperceptible from either top or bottom, this cave being the well hidden opening to the Underdark.
Interesting idea. The Underside is the exclusive property of Prince Andru, and the crops that grow there are tended by convicts and slaves. So a party of PCs probably wouldn't be able to "legally" travel to the Underside.
I sounds like the setup for your idea would either be an attempted jailbreak or maybe an attempt to find out what the Prince has hidden on the Underside.
IDEA #2) Was to have the Rock turn out the be, not a "rock" after all, but rather really a long lost piece of The Shattered Sphere, namely: the Illithids' precious missing Sunslayer, with their missing god/avatar Lugribossk still asleep deep within the heart of it. And since it never really tells us what exactly the Sunslayer was (or maybe it did and I missed it), I farther went on to ask myself, what if the Sunslayer had actually been a giant space dragon?
Interesting idea. It would certainly give you a hook to take players from Bralspace (or wherever you put The Rock) to Clusterspace.
I'm not sure I'd go down this route myself, as I kind of like The Astromundi Cluster illithids being an isolated faction. I've even been thinking about making them be a different type of creature to the mind flayers of other crystal spheres. But I can see how this would be of interest to other people trying to put a campaign together. Even if they were going with various mind flayer factions, they could have another faction try to steal the Sunslayer and use it in their own sphere.
Farther going on the What ifs I asked, What if their was a section of the Rock that was all "hush-hush" and almost no one knew about it, but every one sort of knew of it, in a sort of "Area 51 government base that isn't there" sort of way. That section being a mountain shaped like a dragon, that every one knows it "out there" some where, but no one really knows where (funny the Rock being so small and all, but, whatever).
Are you aware that there is already another secret section on The Rock of Bral?
spoiler
The Elven Navy Embassy is actually the headquarters of the local branch of the navy and there is a fleet of invisible elven ships based on (and near) to the Underside. (From what I recall from the Cloakmaster Cycle, the fleet may previously have been based - or partially based - on Spiral, but the elves of Spiral got fed up with the arrogance of the local admiral and cut off ties with them.)
There is a teleportation circle from the embassy to a navy building on the Underside, but it wouldn't suprise me if the elves had a tunnel through The Rock, as a backup.
There is a teleportation circle from the embassy to a navy building on the Underside, but it wouldn't suprise me if the elves had a tunnel through The Rock, as a backup.
having the Rock run out of water THAT fast makes no damn sense, as it's a moslty closed ecosystem!
it even has it's own WEATHER system after all, so water vapour would reciruclate
ok, ships go away with water, but they come with water, too
urine etc gets reprocessed one way or another, in many ancient/old societies, it was collected for use by fullers, and the water would evapourate or be used to wet/fertilize fields
etc etc, so it should recycle, balancing intake/outake
only if ships were taking a hell of a lot of water, could this huge loss occur and that I coudl only for space-bound ships unable to land and get water elsewhere which would make water a very high priced commodity...which throws up yet more problems
I think keeping the refilling of lake Bral to once every few YEARS would make more sense, as I don't think people realize just how damn much water there would be in a body of liquid that big! ;)
This sounds very logical. Do you still have your partial maps and notes?
... snip snip...
Now that you have done a lot of work on Greyhawk's Underdark, I suppose you might have some new ideas, that you might not have thought of before.
I do indeed still have all of those maps and notes. Perhaps I'll get around to posting some sort of "adventure outline" using that material, since it doesn't seem likely that that campaign will ever get resurrected again in the near future. Just don't have the time or players.
Much of the underdark material I have up now I had actually done before the aborted Bral campaign. Although it has been such a long time now that I'm sure I could add some things.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk melkot.com
Loads of Greyhawk goodness... maps, mysteries, magic, mechanics, and more! Including Spelljammer ship models
This sounds very logical. Do you still have your partial maps and notes?
... snip snip...
Now that you have done a lot of work on Greyhawk's Underdark, I suppose you might have some new ideas, that you might not have thought of before.
I do indeed still have all of those maps and notes. Perhaps I'll get around to posting some sort of "adventure outline" using that material, since it doesn't seem likely that that campaign will ever get resurrected again in the near future. Just don't have the time or players.
I would definately love to see those maps. Over at The Piazza someone found the really great map of the topside of Bral and the guy that did it (Man in the Funny Hat) made and equally good map of the underside. Being able to connect those two maps up with a map of the tunnels inside The Rock would really complete the location.
Much of the underdark material I have up now I had actually done before the aborted Bral campaign. Although it has been such a long time now that I'm sure I could add some things.
If you need any help, perhaps we could trawl through the canon relating to Bral and see if there are any plot hooks in the original material that can be expanded on.