Anyway, enough preamble
Original Tonnage Is the published tonnage of the ship from its original source material.
Deck Area Is how many 5' x 5' squares there are on the ship's deck plan (where it has one).
Calculated Tonnage is the tonnage calculated from the ship's volume - based on a 1 ton = 100 cubic yards = 2700 cubic feet.
Volume Cubic Feet The ship's volume in cubic feet - this is, at best, an approximation.
Ratio is the Original Tonnage divided by the Calculated Tonnage.
Analysis
If we assume a 'reasonable error' in measuring ship's linear dimensions of 5%, then the range of possible volumes would be from about 86% to 116% of the calculated volume. With this range, I found that:
1) 16% of designs had a published tonnage close to the calculated tonnage
2) 7% had a published tonnage close to twice the calculated tonnage
3) 14% had a published tonnage close to the calculated volume/1000
4) 30% had a published tonnage that exceeded any of the categories above
5) 17% had a published tonnage that was to small
The tricky question is how do we fix this?
There probably isn't a 'one size fits all' solution, but one thing to be considered is that several ships at their currently published sizes have other problems - quite often, the deck ceiling height is too low! - Also, as the rules stand, if you change a ship's tonnage, you change it's Hull Points!
I'll be putting in suggestions for fixes in later messages to keep things organised.
Charles
Many ships deckplans and illustrations don't match up or make any sense, Nautiloid is supposed to be 35 tons when it's actually a massive battleship....Wasp was totally broken, etc.
I work on the idea that:
1) 6' headspace is absolute miniumum. They are NOT British naval ships, or slave ships. they need decent headroom for non-starved humans
-we humans were much shorter, in much of our history because the verage Joe was basically half starved! Easily proved by comparing the height of old doorways, or skeletons. Current western males are about a foot taller than their scrawny ancestors in disease ridden early Victoriana, or Rome itself.
German/Celt "barbarians", better fed, ironically, were much bigger people.
-SJ ships have giff, gromams etc, so areas have to be tall and wide enough for them, and large humans.
2) SOme logic. The Tradesman makes no sense. Either you carry large bulky goods, requiring big ships. Or you carry tiny but highly valuable stuff requring very little space.
So I made the Tradesman a much deeper ship with large holds, suitable for carrying lumber, wool etc.
-Note a vital commodity would be, WOOD!
-Real cargo ships were fat, beefy tubs
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/vue1/merchant_xray.jpg
3) SJ marries comparitively advanced "medical/classic" technology, with magic, and skills/knowledge from non-human races, thus it's fine for things to be bizarre or perhaps impractical, as they may have ways ot make 'em practical we 21st century folk don't know!
And the ship designs are just gorgeous
4) People should actually consider the sizes of some of the huge Roman and Viking ships, so large SJ ships make sense...but for most folk, smaller ones would be easier/cheaper and oddly, safer. Big = juicy target, mutiny form a large crew, too big for some docks, large crews have higher chance of hiding a pirate spy etc.
well as said elsewhere, when I make my 3d models, I can work out the exact volume, based from the outer edge of the hull surface.
Which is probably a bit more accurate than what I've dome ;)
Many ships deckplans and illustrations don't match up or make any sense, Nautiloid is supposed to be 35 tons when it's actually a massive battleship....Wasp was totally broken, etc.
Well, my calculations (based on the deck plans and side profiles) I estimate the Nautiloid to be about 120,000 cubic feet, or roughly 44 tons, and that's with a ceiling height of between 8'-16' (I guess illithids like high ceilings) - what volume did you make it? (I liked your Nautiloid model a lot).
I work on the idea that:
1) 6' headspace is absolute miniumum. They are NOT British naval ships, or slave ships. they need decent headroom for non-starved humans
-we humans were much shorter, in much of our history because the verage Joe was basically half starved! Easily proved by comparing the height of old doorways, or skeletons. Current western males are about a foot taller than their scrawny ancestors in disease ridden early Victoriana, or Rome itself.
German/Celt "barbarians", better fed, ironically, were much bigger people.
-SJ ships have giff, gromams etc, so areas have to be tall and wide enough for them, and large humans.
I'd vary this from race to race - I can see kobolds and golblins building low headspace ships just to inconvenience boarders, while a ship built by (or for) ogres or giff should have a headspace of at least 10' Likewise doors should be wide enough for those that are likely to use them.
But not all ships will be built assuming that giff (etc.) are going to be hired, so I can see smaller ships have more cramped headroom (just not to the extent of some published ships!).
IIRC for some ships you were interpreting the deck plans counting the squares as 10' rather than 5' - I'n not sure this will work for all designs, but OTOH, there are a few that are much too small - the Ogre mammoth comes to mind, ATM it has too little head height (7' on a ship for Ogres!) and its doors are to narrow - doubling the linear dimensions would fix both problems while allowing the existing deck plans to be used - but it would increase its tonnage to 272 tons!
Charles
I estimated the volumes by breaking the ships up into approximate geometic shapes, then calculating the volume of the shapes - in most cases I'm assuming that the volume of masts, sails, etc. is negligable.
Your assumption that masts, sails and etc (whatever that might be - I'm gussing rams, outriggers and any other external features) do not matter might be one reason why you get different tonnages to TSR.
Having said that, I've seen Silverblade point out flaws in the designs of ships and some adjustments are probably in order.
Original Tonnage Is the published tonnage of the ship from its original source material.
Calculated Tonnage is the tonnage calculated from the ship's volume - based on a 1 ton = 100 cubic yards = 2700 cubic feet.
This isn't the only definition of tonnage, Charles. I looked for one a while back and found several conflicting definitions. In fact if you use Wikipedia it has a tonnage down as just 100 cubic feet - not 100 cubic yards.
Tonnage can be related to volume, weight or displacement (the amount of water a ship shifts when it floats). This makes the word ton pretty useless unless it is defined.
I think that tons in the Spelljammer sense is probably more likely to be related to a ship's displacement than its cargo volumn. However, in the case of Spelljammer I think that air-displacement rather than water displacement is the way that the TSR designers intended tons to be read:
Method 2: ...For example a 30-ton frigate sets sail with 23 people aboard...It carries enough air to remain fresh for four months (16 weeks) if breathed by 30 people. With 23 crew, the air will last (30x16/23=) 20 weeks.
If you read between the lines, you can see that SJ tonnage is directly related to air envelope volume - not cargo capacity.
It is possible that some tall ships (with high masts) might also have a taller air envelope and gain tons that way. It is also possible that a fat ship or a ship with wide external parts (like a Squidship) might have a fat air envelope and gain tons that way.
Either method of expanding an air envelope might cause more drag on the helm.
I'd be interested to see what the calculations would look like if you did take masts, sails and other features into account. And I'd also be interested in seeing what sort of 3d air envelopes Silverblade could create from his new designs.
well as said elsehwere, when I make my 3d models, I can work out the exact volume, based from the outer esge of the hull surface.
The internal volume of a spelljamming ship doesn't necessarily need to be the same as its "tonnage". It is quite possible that things like tall masts or outriggers could create a larger air envelope.
Many ships deckplans and illustrations don't match up or make any sense, Nautiloid is supposed to be 35 tons when it's actually a massive battleship....Wasp was totally broken, etc.
I work on the idea that:
1) 6' headspace is absolute miniumum. They are NOT British naval ships, or slave ships. they need decent headroom for non-starved humans
-we humans were much shorter, in much of our history because the verage Joe was basically half starved!
While I agree that the original ships are often broken, I don't see why the groundling ships wouldn't be more like Earth's naval ships.
BTW: A lot of British naval ships were ripped off from Spanish designs. Captains used to steal each other's ships back then.
I don't think that it is fair to put British naval ships and slave ships into the same sentence. The Royal Navy never treated its crews that badly. Conditions may have been harsh, but so was the land based society that the crew's came from.
I've been in modern narrowboats and caravans and had to duck to get through doorways. Dismissing this sort of design feature as being linked to a half starved population might be a red-herring. On groundling ships it might also be done to increase the number of usable decks or give the ship a lower centre of gravity.
Naval crews and modern racing crews have discipline and shared goals to help with psychology of dealing with environment...which won't affect SJ folk in many ways.
For instance, though the Elven navy is more lawful than normal elves...evles in general are more individualistic and artistic than humans. They wouldn't suffer cramped, dirty conditions.
-Giff are lawful militarists, but very big and very clean.
-Lot of human cultures would demand different outlooks on segregation of the sexes, amount or lack of cleanliness etc.
-thus a SJ ship, would *not* be like a "Plain old Earth" ship, per se.
What we, with our 21st century Western outlook would regard as logical, other cultures even today wouldn't tolerate, or think of as overly luxurious...so SJ ships would more reflect the cultures they operate within, as well as a very diferent practical use in many aspects.
here's a point that struck me when making the ships in 3d , I would not otherwise have noted:
-the helmroom must NEVER be built below the normal gravity plane.
Why? Because the helm room would be upside down, at times, meaning, you couldn't get into the helm when you hav gravity enforced by a larger object. So a tradesman, which could land on a planet's ocean, if its helm was below the grav plane, you'd have to climb up to the helm which would now be on the CEILING! ;)
Cargo ships required the largest volume of cargo space, the most reliable design, the fewest possible crew, and in some cases, least taxes or dockingfees (which did affect some designs).
-warships need space to mount weapons, reinforced hulls and rams.
Most SJ ships won't have giff etc all the time, but would have to accomodate them as "typical" passengers or crew.
Narrow boats, again remember until recently, the average human was between 5'1" and 5'6" ;) Scottish Highlanders were on average more than a foot taller than their Glaswegian counterparts. I take "SJ fantasy humans" as mostly being well fed folk.
So all those would affect ship design. Also, giffs/grommam/goblins could well re-scale a ship design for their needs.
So a "civilized" goblin Tradesman could be half the usual size, or have twice as many decks.
Long as we can work out a set size for tonnage I'm fine
Air volume seems the logial system for SJ. 9 tons though seems unrealistic for something the size of a Wasp though.
Rigging and the like should generally not be included in tonnage because of the many variables due to configuration, damage etc.
I'll try at some point to go back and get the exact volumes for my ships for ya
Bit tricky for some designs like the nautiloid, which isn't a simple hull.At one point I was going to do them at 10' scale but listening to folk on the Sj lists good points, I kept to 5', though I had to re-work the ships more to keep with the deckplans, which I usually preffer for working from as they are properly mapped so easier to work from, and then stick to the illustration for the ship's character.
The deckplan of the Nautiloid for example, is a huge ship, but the illustration is smaller looking, in fact the scale doesn't quite add up...a catapult above a ballista would require a very high deck height for the catapult...also, where the hell can you load cargo etc?! ;)
So in my version, I made two, side doors, that slide hoizontally, as big cargo doors.
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/rhino/nautiloid14.jpg
that shows the sliding door. Which I think is a logical way to answer that problem.
As others on the SJ list suggested, there could well be two variants of the nautiloid, large and small, and that would logical and fulfill different needs.
Your assumption that masts, sails and etc (whatever that might be - I'm gussing rams, outriggers and any other external features) do not matter might be one reason why you get different tonnages to TSR.
Well, I did count rams and other large structures (for instance, my estimate for the orc scorpion included the claws and legs - although I had to guess how long the legs were - and it still ended up as only 6 tons!) I've just done a quick estimate - a 70' by 8' diameter mast could take up to 1 ton (as in 100 cubic yards) - so I should probably up the tonnage of masted ships slightly - will do more research to check real world mast sizes.
Having said that, I've seen Silverblade point out flaws in the designs of ships and some adjustments are probably in order.
One of my sources of inspiration for doing this.
This isn't the only definition of tonnage, Charles. I looked for one a while back and found several conflicting definitions. In fact if you use Wikipedia it has a tonnage down as just 100 cubic feet - not 100 cubic yards.
Yep, I found this out when I was doing some research to try and find tonnages (both volume and weight kind) for real-world wooden ships, I've put a post up on the mailing list about it.
I think that tons in the Spelljammer sense is probably more likely to be related to a ship's displacement than its cargo volumn. However, in the case of Spelljammer I think that air-displacement rather than water displacement is the way that the TSR designers intended tons to be read:
If you read between the lines, you can see that SJ tonnage is directly related to air envelope volume - not cargo capacity.
Definately agree - which was why I was trying to estimate the actual volume of the ship, rather than just working off the deck area x ceiling height.
It is possible that some tall ships (with high masts) might also have a taller air envelope and gain tons that way. It is also possible that a fat ship or a ship with wide external parts (like a Squidship) might have a fat air envelope and gain tons that way.
Interesting idea - I'll see if there is a correlation between 'over massed' ships and mast height (I don't think there is though
).I'd be interested to see what the calculations would look like if you did take masts, sails and other features into account. And I'd also be interested in seeing what sort of 3d air envelopes Silverblade could create from his new designs.
Ah, more work for me
well I stated it ;) .Naval crews and modern racing crews have discipline and shared goals to help with psychology of dealing with environment...which won't affect SJ folk in many ways.
For instance, though the Elven navy is more lawful than normal elves...evles in general are more individualistic and artistic than humans. They wouldn't suffer cramped, dirty conditions
-Giff are lawful militarists, but very big and very clean.
-Lot of human cultures would demand different outlooks on segregation of the sexes, amount or lack of cleanliness etc.
-thus a SJ ship, would *not* be like a "Plain old Earth" ship, per se.
Well, Giff definately need more head-height than that given them in the Clipper, likewise, I wouldn't want to tell Ogres that they're stuck with the 7' high decks on the Mammoth
here's a point that struck me when making the ships in 3d , I would not otherwise have noted:
-the helmroom must NEVER be built below the normal gravity plane.
Why? Because the helm room would be upside down, at times, meaning, you couldn't get into the helm when you hav gravity enforced by a larger object. So a tradesman, which could land on a planet's ocean, if its helm was below the grav plane, you'd have to climb up to the helm which would now be on the CEILING! ;)
Yes, a bit inconvenient I think ;)
Most SJ ships won't have giff etc all the time, but would have to accomodate them as "typical" passengers or crew.
Depends how parochial the ship-builders were - I'd expect any arcane-built ship to have a high ceiling just to accomodate the arcane (who are tall) - (Memo: check ceiling height on the triop).
Long as we can work out a set size for tonnage I'm fine
Air volume seems the logial system for SJ. 9 tons though seems unrealistic for something the size of a Wasp though.
Definately agree.
Rigging and the like should generally not be included in tonnage because of the many variables due to configuration, damage etc.
Valid point, but I could (if I have time) make a stab at a rough 'average' configuration, fortunately most spaceworthy designs have few masts and very simple rigs.
I'll try at some point to go back and get the exact volumes for my ships for ya
Thanks, that would be useful and appreciated.
At one point I was going to do them at 10' scale but listening to folk on the Sj lists good points, I kept to 5', though I had to re-work the ships more to keep with the deckplans, which I usually preffer for working from as they are properly mapped so easier to work from, and then stick to the illustration for the ship's character.
Well, even with a doubled linear scale the orc scorpion is still only 44 tons (it should be 60!), while the mindspider 'grows' to 12 tons (i should be 40!!)
The deckplan of the Nautiloid for example, is a huge ship, but the illustration is smaller looking, in fact the scale doesn't quite add up...a catapult above a ballista would require a very high deck height for the catapult...also, where the hell can you load cargo etc?! ;)
Well, it is a rather compact design, with a greater height:length ratio than most other ships (not counting masts).
As others on the SJ list suggested, there could well be two variants of the nautiloid, large and small, and that would logical and fulfill different needs.
Makes sense!
Charles
For reference, the ships with an increase in calculated tonnage are these:
Barge of Ptah
Batship
Caravel
Clipper
Coaster
Deathglory
Deathspider
Dolphin, Battle
Dolphin, Shuttle
Drakkar
Dromond
Galleon
Galleon, Spacesea Giant
Great Galley
Hammpership
Junk
Mindspider
Vagabond
Xebec
I also included an estimated tonnage for the Spelljammer, based on its dimensions, and re-calculated how many ships were the 'right' tonnage, etc. using a 5% variation in linear measurement, rather than 10%.
Charles
Hammership
Dimensions listed: Keel 250', Beam 25' 60 Tons
Dimensions from plans: Length: 200', Beam (not counting eyestalks): 25', Ceiling height: 8'6", 19 tons
Scaling this up to 250' long (making the deck grid to be 7'6" squares) gives us:
Keel Length: 250'. Beam 31', Ceiling height: 10'8", 36 Tons
Still a bit small for its listed tonage, but the deck plans taper straight from behind the eyestalks, while the drawing seem to show breadth of hull continuing further back, which would increase the volume somewhat. While a 10' 8" ceiling height should give 10' of headroom allowing for beams, which should be enough for most crew (rather roomy) even giff don't have to duck!
Squidship
Dimensions listed: Keel 250', Beam 25' 45 tons
Dimensions from plans: Length: 205', Beam: 25', Ceiling height: 6' 10", 24 tons
Again, scaling this up (and I'm assuming the 250' length includes that great big ram in this case):
(This makes the deck plan grid a 6' grid, rather than 5').
Keel Length (including ram): 250', Beam: 30', Ceiling height: 8' 4", 44 tons - which is close enough to be correct.
Allowing for beams this a headrom of about 7'10" or so, more than enough for humans, but very cramped for Giff.
Now I know that Silverblade did a rather fine 3D squidship model, I'd be interested in knowing it's dimensions and volume.
Charles
up to 700 tons. basically only available to dwarves though.
SJ Major helm: 100 tons
Forge: 700 tons
Series Helm: 50 tons
Pool Helm: 200 tons? (theoritical limit, net truly confirmed)
Ki-Helm: 200 tons
Hackjammer Helm: 200 tons, possibly more
Slave and naval ships were not designed for a "more comfortable" environment is my point ;)
Naval crews and modern racing crews have discipline and shared goals to help with psychology of dealing with environment...which won't affect SJ folk in many ways.
You are making assumptions here. You can say that "in Spelljammer ships don't need to be that small" but I'd argue that they already are that small unless you can find canon material that says they bigger than groundling ships.
The ships in Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms are based on real life ships and the Spelljammer groundling ships (like galleons*) are supposed to be the same thing. This establishes a frame of reference that can be applied to the spacefaring designs.
(* = Galleons are supposed to be modern technology for groundlings in SJ. Spacefarers could probably buy a galleon on one groundling world, fly it to another groundling world and sell it for a lot of money. :D )
Ship sizes (groundling ship sizes) are partly down to the way that a ship cuts its way through the waves on the sea. Hammerships and other ships designed to land on the sea do need to remain sea worth to some extent so they are tied in to the sort of sizes that groundling ships use.
You could argue that ships that only land on the ground (like the dragonfly) don't need to worry about this design limitation, but then they probably have an upper weight limit that comes down to the strength of the ship's legs.
Spacefarers are already running spelljamming ships with reduced crews:
Crew listings for crew are also less than those listed in the Player's Handbook and other sources. This is because the spelljamming helm frees up a lot of manpower otherwise needed (such as sailors and rowers). If a converted groundling ship is returned to earth, it will need its full crew to function normally.
Given that this quote shows that spacefarers have more room per crewman that groundlings I don't see why they would also need to inflate the ships beyond the sizes used on a groundling world.
I agree with adjustments to ship shapes (to get things to fit three dimensionally). I also agree with creating what amounts to a second set of "dire ships" (big versions of existing TSR ships). But saying that the all of the ships are too small is a value judgement that I think you are imposing on SJ rather than something based on TSR/WotC material.
Adding a second set of "dire ships" would be useful, because it would give a GM more toys to play with, but rescaling everything isn't so useful because the GM needs to make a bunch of adjustments and doesn't get any more toys as a reward for the hard work.
For instance, though the Elven navy is more lawful than normal elves...evles in general are more individualistic and artistic than humans. They wouldn't suffer cramped, dirty conditions.
-Giff are lawful militarists, but very big and very clean.
-Lot of human cultures would demand different outlooks on segregation of the sexes, amount or lack of cleanliness etc.
-thus a SJ ship, would *not* be like a "Plain old Earth" ship, per se.
Elves would travel in elegant ships. And that is exactly what they have with their grown butterfly designs.
There are groundling elves operating normal ships in the first Spelljammer novel, so why do you think that spacefaring elves (who would have smaller crews than groundling elves) wouldn't be able to cope?
Elven ships would not be dirty even if they were (in your opinion) small. Cleaning facilities don't need to take up a lot of room. I'm sure that elves would find natural ways to keep things clean and avoid unpleasant smells.
On top of that elves don't need to sleep, so you can cut down the amount of size they need for crew compartments. They do meditate, but with 4 hours meditation vs 8 hours sleep you still only need to provide half the rest space that other races use.
The elves in the Elven Imperial Navy are serving the elven race and if living inside a bubble of air makes them suffer they probably feel that they will be rewarded in the elven afterlife. The elves can still roam freely in their own minds and even an elven armada is smaller than a forest they can still give each other the illusion of privacy.
Elves can still be artistic in small places. There are probably a lot of arts that can be done in small spaces and the elves of wildspace could specialise in those.
Don't forget that spacefarers don't spend all of their time on ships. The elves of wildspace have bases and embassies on various worlds and the EIN can make sure that its crews get to enjoy shore leave. The Cloakmaster Novels have an illusionary forest in the Elven Embassy on Bral and there is no reason why the EIN wouldn't be able to do the same sort of thing in every "civilised" crystal sphere.
Giff may be clean, but modern showers prove you can be clean in small spaces.
I think the biggest block to "being clean" in Spelljammer is the shortage of water. Crews would either need to use grey water (water that has been used for something else like washing vegetables) or find a way to clean themselves without using water.
Maybe there is some sort of plant out in wildspace that helps people clean themselves without water.
However cleaning is a problem for all ships regardless of size, so while it is interesting (and maybe deserves an article on BtM) I don't think it can dictate the size of a SJ ship.
Human cultures might bring in problems, but you need to remember that D&D culture is not historical culture. The designers of D&D have tweaked things to make them more appealing to gamers. Most recently they have engaged in a politically correct exercise of changing half the references to "him" into "her".
Personally, I believe that everyone is equal, so I don't particularly have a problem with D&D having strong women. But equality isn't something that real world ships had to worry about, so we don't really have a model to show us what the Spanish Armada would have looked like if half of the captains, officers and crew were female. All we can do is guess...
...and my guess is that spacefarers would just get on with it. Spacefaring humans would get so used to working, eating, sleeping close to other men and women that they would think of those people as family or part of the furniture.
You could probably throw in the occasional human culture where they have certain taboos, but I'd recommend that this was the exception rather than the rule.
You say that a spelljammer ship would not be like an earth ship, but earth ships (or to be more precise groundling D&D ships) are the best approximation I think we will be able to get.
If Serenity can get away with doing "cowboys in space" then I think that Spelljammer can get away with doing "fantasy seafarers in space".
This is an interesting subject, but doesn't really relate to ship sizes.
What we, with our 21st century Western outlook would regard as logical, other cultures even today wouldn't tolerate, or think of as overly luxurious...so SJ ships would more reflect the cultures they operate within, as well as a very diferent practical use in many aspects.
Spelljammer is a fantasy space campaign setting and shouldn't really have anything to do with the 21st centuary - you'll get no argument from me there as I've never liked people trying to bolt sci-fi onto SJ. However, historical ships like the Mary Rose fit into SJ a lot better and I see no reason not to include historical ships in unmodified forms.
here's a point that struck me when making the ships in 3d , I would not otherwise have noted:
-the helmroom must NEVER be built below the normal gravity plane.
I don't remember ever seeing a mention of a "helmroom" apart from in conversations with you. It may actually be a concept that you invented. The preface of Beyond the Moons seems to have the captain of the ship standing on deck and talking to the helmsman at the same time. This seems to imply that some ships might mount helms on the open deck.
Personally I think that sticking a helmsman below deck makes more sense and you are right to say that they would need to be above the gravity plane.
Cargo ships required the largest volume of cargo space, the most reliable design, the fewest possible crew, and in some cases, least taxes or dockingfees (which did affect some designs).
As I've already quoted from CoAS you get less crew and therefore more cargo space if you put a spelljamming helm on a groundling ship, so the ships of wildspace already beat the ships that sail on the seas of groundling worlds. But don't forget that the SJ material seems to imply that spelljamming ships transport small valuable things rather than transporting bulky cargo.
I suppose there could be ships hauling tons of wood into wildspace, but I've yet to read about them.
-warships need space to mount weapons, reinforced hulls and rams.
An arms race like that means that each ship needs more NPCs to man the weapons and combat would take a lot longer to resolve. Maybe that is why the SJ designers reduced crews and cut down the number of weapons to 2 or 3.
Most SJ ships won't have giff etc all the time, but would have to accomodate them as "typical" passengers or crew.
They can sleep on deck next to the ship's weapons! :P
Narrow boats, again remember until recently, the average human was between 5'1" and 5'6" ;) Scottish Highlanders were on average more than a foot taller than their Glaswegian counterparts. I take "SJ fantasy humans" as mostly being well fed folk.
They can still be short if we want. SJ is fantasy and we don't need to have scientifically accurate humans.
So all those would affect ship design. Also, giffs/grommam/goblins could well re-scale a ship design for their needs.
So a "civilized" goblin Tradesman could be half the usual size, or have twice as many decks.
Even taking your points onboard, I would still prefer to retain the overall average sizes from the AD&D Adventures in Wildspace boxed set. However I like the idea of variant sizes and would be glad to see bigger and smaller versions added to the "Other Configurations" sections most ships. But don't forget that size variation is not the only option, you could create some variants that are designed for creatures with more than two arms and make it hard for human PCs to do things like open doors by themselves.
If giff had ships (and I don't see them with their own ships) I can imagine their ships being more cramped, so that they can fit in extra space for weapon racks and ammunition. I've seen antique furniture with secret compartments and a giff ship could have secret panels in walls (or even under the floor) where crew can store weapons. The weight of the giff would make other races think that extra thick walls and floors were explained by their bulk.
The grommams are supposed to be very good at climbing:
Grommam spelljamming ships (usually purchased from humans) are decorated with bright colours and wild designs. Because grommams are so adept at climbing, they make heavy use of ropes and swing bars in their rigging.
They could probably also remove things like staircases and floors from parts of a ship if they wanted to build a ship from scratch instead of modyfying a human ship.
I can't imagine goblins having ships in most spheres. They are seen as groundlings by the scro.
If they do get "civilised" then it shouldn't really be the same sort of civilisation that humans, elves and dwarves have. Someone on the SJML came up with the idea of changing the goblin porcupine ship into a ship that was formed from something like a giant plant and I'd probably like to contine that sort of thing.
Spacefaring goblins could grow ships naturally, like the elves, but you could give them a totally different concept of what was pleasing to the eye.
Actually I quite like the idea of giving them a range of ships based on giant spheres similar to the one that forms the body of a porcupine ship. :D
If the porcupine sphere is a basic building block and you could just bolt four together (in a pyramid) to get the core of the next largest ship. Bolt another sphere onto the rear and you get another slightly larger symetrical shape. I think the next size up comes from having six spheres in a hexigon with an extra sphere on the front and back. The spheres could have a lot of internal rigging inside them and cargo could be strapped to the inner shells of the spheres.
Long as we can work out a set size for tonnage I'm fine
Air volume seems the logial system for SJ. 9 tons though seems unrealistic for something the size of a Wasp though.
Where did you get "9 tons" from? CoAS says it is "18 tons".
Rigging and the like should generally not be included in tonnage because of the many variables due to configuration, damage etc.
It shouldn't be included if you are trying to work out usable cargo area, but if you are trying to calculate the air envelope then masts and sails might "justify" a certain SJ ship being able to pull more air than other ships that seem to be the same hull size.
Of all the modifications mentioned on page 44-45 of CoAS (Increased Thickness, Plating, Stronger Materials, Netting, Rigging and Stripping) there is no mention of any modifications that might enable a ship to drag more air along with it. (I personally like the idea of a pair of out-riggers that can be attached to both sides of a ship on the gravity plane.)
I'll try at some point to go back and get the exact volumes for my ships for ya
At one point I was going to do them at 10' scale but listening to folk on the Sj lists good points, I kept to 5', though I had to re-work the ships more to keep with the deckplans, which I usually preffer for working from as they are properly mapped so easier to work from, and then stick to the illustration for the ship's character.
Deckplans done as printable maps scaled to 1 inch per 5 foot would probably make you very very popular! :D
The deckplan of the Nautiloid for example, is a huge ship, but the illustration is smaller looking, in fact the scale doesn't quite add up...a catapult above a ballista would require a very high deck height for the catapult...also, where the hell can you load cargo etc?! ;)
The original illustration seems to put the balista in front of the catapult so that the catapult fires over the heads of its crew. There doesn't seem to be anything above the catapult, so I can't see a problem there.
But then again I didn't try to calculate all the angles in 3d. Did you think that the prowl of the ship was blocking the balista's field of fire?You seem to have removed the angled wall that the TSR version has in front of the catapult. That must have given you a bit of extra space.
So in my version, I made two, side doors, that slide hoizontally, as big cargo doors.
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/rhino/nautiloid14.jpg
that shows the sliding door. Which I think is a logical way to answer that problem.
As others on the SJ list suggested, there could well be two variants of the nautiloid, large and small, and that would logical and fulfill different needs.
If you make your version with cargo doors the "Dire Naultiloid" and try to make one that matches the size given in the CoAS and LotV then the smaller one would be good as a ship that could make raids on groundling worlds.
Don't forget that if you scale up ships then you are going to create more room for weapons. That means that larger ships could carry the next size up of the same weapon or perhaps could have an additional weapons platform. I can't see space for extra platforms on your nautiloid, but you can probably justify putting larger weapons than the ones in LotV.
well, I have made deck plans of my re-designed wasp and Deathspider ;)
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/sj/wasp/deck1s.gif
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/sj/wasp/decks2.gif
Problem with the nautiloid is that a catapult needs a very high space to allow the arc of fire. I designed a "low slung" catapult, but even that has a huge arm height. Catapults that used a sling, instead of a scoop would be even worse. So it is a problem.
"mangonel" or "onager" style catapults can have shorter heights, if they avoid using a sling (which reduces onager's power a fair bit)...but those designs cause enormous recoil that would be normall be absorbed by the uprights then the ground...instead the force would smash into the deck. Not good.
-And as said in other debates, catapults would be useless in SJ, except for bombardment of stationery objects, or using Helmseekers and the like ;) Then they could be very useful for hurling entire barrel's full of Alchemists Fire, swarms, acid etc.
-Rock hurling ballistae on the other hand, owie! They would smash ships to kindling, much like cannons.
Water shouldn't be a problem if you have a cleric *purify food and drink* ;)
the main problem is that everyone seems so eager to use their spellcasters to power their helms... in fact, pretty much everyone is dumb in spelljammer :P
they should all be beating the crud out of goblins for the secret to their pump helms. (incidentally, if you were wondering... yes, the goblins are dumb too. their preferred fuel is people, which kinda requires slaves, who require at least some food/water, and will gladly breathe your air. in comparison, *ceramics* do not require air, food or water, and can be had for dirt cheap prices... )
Bigmac,
well, I have made deck plans of my re-designed wasp and Deathspider ;)
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/sj/wasp/deck1s.gif
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/sj/wasp/decks2.gif
Thanks for those, Silverblade. They are essential if you are going to alter ships. In fact when Beyond the Moons finishes making material for the "Ships in Wildspace" PDF it might be nice to have a set of cards showing deck plans and 3e compatible stats.
I think it was Night Druid that said that ship hulls should be available in different sizes. So even if your ships were not universally chosen as "official" they would definately work as variants.
Your 3D models would definately be great for generating the front side of ship cards (the picture of the ship with 3e stats). Having said that, I'd like to move to a different type of ship stats. I'd like ships to have a sheet like a character sheet. Something that has space for its crew and cargo as well as fighting capability. I'd also like to see deck plans magnified into deck maps (which can be printed out and used with one inch miniatures).
Problem with the nautiloid is that a catapult needs a very high space to allow the arc of fire.
In wildspace the arc of fire isn't so important. Gravity ends at the edge of the air envelope so you should be able to alter catapults to make them fire things forwards instead of in a parabolic path. That wouldn't work in a planetary atmosphere, so you would probably need to adjust the weapon depending on your situation.
Actually we normally play spelljammer as if wildspace is 2 dimensional, but if you did 3D combat you might want to adjust firing angles of weapons to shoot ships that are "higher" or "lower" than your ship.
I designed a "low slung" catapult, but even that has a huge arm height. Catapults that used a sling, instead of a scoop would be even worse. So it is a problem.
If the nautiloid's catapult does need extra hight (and I don't necessarily agree that it does) you could gain that height by moving the platform forward as easily as you could from raising the rest of the ship. I think that extending the ram and the weapon platform would be an easier design change. You could even make a nautiloid variant with a much longer ram that has space for an extra weapon built in.
"mangonel" or "onager" style catapults can have shorter heights, if they avoid using a sling (which reduces onager's power a fair bit)...but those designs cause enormous recoil that would be normall be absorbed by the uprights then the ground...instead the force would smash into the deck. Not good.
I've seen animation of a mangonel and onager and they seem to jump up in the air after they fire. So the deck might be OK if the weapon wasn't anchored. The crew would need to reposition the weapon after it was fired, but that also has to be done for a cannon.
I would actually like to see both of these weapons (and the trebuchet) given SJ statistics. I think that it would be really interesting if different spacefaring societies had access to different types of catapult.
-And as said in other debates, catapults would be useless in SJ, except for bombardment of stationery objects, or using Helmseekers and the like ;) Then they could be very useful for hurling entire barrel's full of Alchemists Fire, swarms, acid etc.
I don't agree with all of that debate. As I just said you could modify a catapult to change its firing arc. Ship weapons have a very low rate of fire, but ships also move relatively slowly. If people treat ships as fighter planes then weapons, like catapults, might not work, but if the ships are as sluggish as the weapons then some shots will get through.
I wouldn't like to see weapons that blast ships to bits, because then ramming and bording would only happen against unarmed ships. SJ combat needs an element of bording action to allow all the PCs to have a face to face fight once in a while.
-Rock hurling ballistae on the other hand, owie! They would smash ships to kindling, much like cannons.
In the age of sail ships did actually try to capture enemy ships (fairly) intact. I think that a weapon crew should be aiming to destroy enemy ship weapons (to reduce its attacks on their ship) sails (to reduce its manouverability). If the ship doesn't strike its colours they should go for masts (to prevent the enemy crew from hoisting spare sails) crew strikes (to cut down their ability to make repairs). After that they need to try for a boarding action.
Water shouldn't be a problem if you have a cleric *purify food and drink* ;)
Purify food and drink will help you make food and water last longer. But it is only like having a refridgerator. It won't let you recycle food that has already been eaten. I'm pretty sure it also wasn't intented to clean up urine.
To get new water you need the create water spell.
To get new food I think you need to bring along some edible plants. These could be fed with waste products from the crew and could also help keep the air envelope fresh. Normal plants may die in the phlogiston, so a "ship's garden" could function as air supply while in wildspace and as an extra meal when entering the flow.
in truth, with a decent level spellcaster (especially a divine spellcaster) most of the problems of wildspace become pretty trivial, imo.
If you stick to using divine spellcasters from that crystal sphere you would probably be OK, but divine spellcasters from other spheres might have problems casting high level spells.
the main problem is that everyone seems so eager to use their spellcasters to power their helms... in fact, pretty much everyone is dumb in spelljammer :P
Considering that SR only makes a difference at tactical speed, so you only need to have a high level spellcaster on the helm during combat, take-off and landing. I think it would make sense to bring a few extra low level spellcasters (even multi-class spellcasters or prestige class spellcasters) and keep your high level spellcasters in reserve. The low level spellcasters could all take 8 hour shifts at the helm.
they should all be beating the crud out of goblins for the secret to their pump helms. (incidentally, if you were wondering... yes, the goblins are dumb too. their preferred fuel is people, which kinda requires slaves, who require at least some food/water, and will gladly breathe your air. in comparison, *ceramics* do not require air, food or water, and can be had for dirt cheap prices... )
I think that spellcasting is a much better source of fuel. It is essentially free and, as long as you take extra helmsmen, your helmsmen can also cast spells to do other things. Given that most "spacefarers" don't actually travel through wildspace captains should be able to to have their pick of spellcasters.
Does anyone have the deck plans for the Batship?
Wizards of the Coast have given away the plans for most spelljamming ships, but the batship isn't one of them. According to Beyond the Moon's Ships And Their Source Products page you can find the batship in both Realmspace and War Captain's Companion. But I don't think that either product has deckplans of the ship. The information about the ship in Realmspace is more like a monster entry than a ship description.
Maybe a fan will make ship plans and post them on Beyond the Moons. The ship can change into two different shapes, so you might need two sets of deck plans to use it.
They are essential Wizards of the Coast have given away the plans for most spelljamming ships, but the batship isn't one of them. According to Beyond the Moon's Ships And Their Source Products page you can find the batship in both Realmspace and War Captain's Companion. But I don't think that either product has deckplans of the ship. The information about the ship in Realmspace is more like a monster entry than a ship description.
Maybe a fan will make ship plans and post them on Beyond the Moons. The ship can change into two different shapes, so you might need two sets of deck plans to use it.
Thank you
Considering that SR only makes a difference at tactical speed, so you only need to have a high level spellcaster on the helm during combat, take-off and landing. I think it would make sense to bring a few extra low level spellcasters (even multi-class spellcasters or prestige class spellcasters) and keep your high level spellcasters in reserve. The low level spellcasters could all take 8 hour shifts at the helm.
I think that spellcasting is a much better source of fuel. It is essentially free and, as long as you take extra helmsmen, your helmsmen can also cast spells to do other things. Given that most "spacefarers" don't actually travel through wildspace captains should be able to to have their pick of spellcasters. [edited for removing stuff i'm not responding to, and to remove blank lines - Jaid]
well, the fuel for the pump can be *literally* free if you're not picky about SR (stone, "plant products", "liquids" and wood, all of which are either basically free, and/or can be had from *garbage*, and provide SR1. throwing the shards of a broken pot from that ship you fought earlier to speed the ship up each time you get into battle is not going to bankrupt anyone, i should hope, and should probably be cheaper than hiring a spellcaster), not just "essentially free" as you call it (considering you have to pay a magic user a decent wage to take an 8 hour shift on the helm, and you're talking about having at least 3 different helmsmen, plus 1 combat helmsman (has to be high level spellcaster) plus probably a ship's mage and a cleric, you're looking at a lot of spellcasters for just one ship. if i was going to have that many spellcasters, i for one would much rather have them available to cast spells.
essentially, even though spellcasters are more common in spelljammer, that doesn't mean that all ships (even in major military organisations) can have 2-3 high level spellcasters on them. certainly, unless an organisation is more or less explicitly an organisation composed of mages (many of them higher levels) there aren't going to be too many organisations with multiple level 10 mages available for powering helms (level 15 if you're stuck with minor helms, in which case you can forget about powering a 100 ton vessel like the pump helm can do)
and certainly not to many nations will have any mages capable of matching SR 8, which (while expensive) is certainly possible using a pump helm. certainly jewels should be more common than mages, at the very least.
granted, helms *do* have the advantage of being tremendously expensive... which is why people should be raiding goblinoid ships like crazy, rather than rushing to buy them =P
as far as providing incentive to board, i would tend to think that a 50,000 gp ship is reason enough to board. even most cheaper ships are worth *something*, and a completely destroyed enemy likely means you've been taking a beating yourself the entire time. (and a completely destroyed ship is not very likely to have usable materials to conduct repairs... a mostly intact ship, on the other hand). also, especially if you make the helm have a decent chance of being destroyed when the ship is, that should motivate just fine too, i would think...