classics issue) will have 3e stats on the giff, insectare, and scro.
Huzzah!
The updates for the scro will be nice also.I can't recall at this exact moment where the insectare were mentioned in the SJ material though. Thoughts?
I can't recall at this exact moment where the insectare were mentioned in the SJ material though. Thoughts?
One of the two SJ Monstrous Compendiums. They're sort of elf-like with a few insect-like qualities.
It was in the first SJMC though, as I recall now
.Yeah, I remember what they are, just not where they were listed.
It was in the first SJMC though, as I recall now
They appeared in the SJMC, Goblin's Return, and Radiant Dragon. I have no idea which came first.
What a treat.
I just got my copy of the Magazine in question today and it looks like they managed keep a certain malcontent who shall remain nameless on a short leash. The Giff and Scro are about as accurate and close to the original source as can be expected. If anyone knows a good monster class for the Giff post it or a link to it here please as the Giff in the book have a +3 LA. Never gave the insectare much attention really. [Giff=Goofy yeah right! Moron just doesn't have an appreciation for this setting or the integral races thereof]
Are you referring to the same nameless malcontent that labeled much of Spelljammer's unique (truly!) setting properties as a "wonky cosmology" a few years back? The "wonky cosmology" of Spelljammer was utterly unique! I've never encountered anything like it before or since. Let's face it, with the exception of perhaps Metamorphosis Alpha, TSR or even WotC never had a setting that wasn't somehow derivative of another source or genre. Spelljammer was a definate exception. It was mindblowing high-fantasy stuff with well thought out mechanics. I'd love to see a true 3.5 presentation of this material, even it I had to settle for a single book like Ghostwalk. The nameless malcontent to whom I think you refer tossed asside an oppurtunity to work with an extremely unique system on what seemed at the time to be an effort to make a large portion of previously printed work invalid just to change the setting's tone! The mechanics of Spelljammer doesn't require abandonment if one wants to present Spelljammer in a grittier light; Just the skills of a writer who comprehends the usage of tone.
I could terrorize you with Giant Space Hamsters!
Are you referring to the same nameless malcontent that labeled much of Spelljammer's unique (truly!) setting properties as a "wonky cosmology" a few years back? The "wonky cosmology" of Spelljammer was utterly unique! I've never encountered anything like it before or since. Let's face it, with the exception of perhaps Metamorphosis Alpha, TSR or even WotC never had a setting that wasn't somehow derivative of another source or genre. Spelljammer was a definate exception. It was mindblowing high-fantasy stuff with well thought out mechanics. I'd love to see a true 3.5 presentation of this material, even it I had to settle for a single book like Ghostwalk. The nameless malcontent to whom I think you refer tossed asside an oppurtunity to work with an extremely unique system on what seemed at the time to be an effort to make a large portion of previously printed work invalid just to change the setting's tone! The mechanics of Spelljammer doesn't require abandonment if one wants to present Spelljammer in a grittier light; Just the skills of a writer who comprehends the usage of tone.
I could terrorize you with Giant Space Hamsters!
Please, please, desist dear friend, you preach to the converted. Unleash the hamster on the odious sub-humanoid that truly deserves your scorn. SpellJammer still stands as my absolute most favorite campaign setting. There are but three other settings that I love as much or almost as much as SJ and they are Dark Sun, Eberron and Planescape. All of these share the same sense of wonder and exploration. The individual who calls Giff goofy and our belovedly weird and wonky cosmology (yes it is wonky, but in a good way) is human only in name. While much of the way our little campaign is strange to those that do not understand it, we who get it, love it. You and I for the most part get the message and what the setting is all about and like working within its framework to have some real fun. The moron does not. This explains why Dark Sun got so much more coverage that Spell Jammer did and less changes from the person who is still on my list of people I would to take on a flight to europe and mid-way across the Atlantic, shove out an airlock.
On the Dark Sun issue, yes it got a lot of coverage recently, but Dark Sun fandom had some problems with it as well.
All of that being said, I'm anxious to see this issue of Dragon. How did the article look? Did it use the classic SJ logo? Details, please!
I'm one of those who had problems with the DS issues but most of that was in the monster department with certain animal types blatantly left out of the picture. Athas.org did it right for the most part, I like the article better for certain weapons but this is a minor quibble.
Guys, please, can we lay off of the Nameless One bashing? Look, I'm not too fond of his editorial either, but it's done with. It's old news. This is exactly why I don't bother with the Spelljammer-L mailing list much - too much negativity. Negativism breeds negativism. It's time to move on and focus on what's positive.
On the Dark Sun issue, yes it got a lot of coverage recently, but Dark Sun fandom had some problems with it as well.
All of that being said, I'm anxious to see this issue of Dragon. How did the article look? Did it use the classic SJ logo? Details, please!
Aye! I'm not sure whether the "nameless malcontent" is an editor, but the idea of my post wasn't to point fingers so much as defend the magnificent concept that is Spelljammer. See, i'm not so sure a single person made those choices a few years back, thus my not using specific names, I actually think WotC made a corporate decision years ago regarding previous intellectal properties that they'd rather support and rather not. My rant tended to hint upon a particular article that floated around a few years back when Spidermoon was about to be released in Polyhedron that rubbed me the wrong way then and even now. An employee at the time bashed Spelljammer's background, slammed the core races and called the setting's mechanics a "wonky cosmology". It's one thing to not support a system. It's another to bash it and retcon it. Still, I'm not sure I'm of the mind to throw anyone out of a plane over it, but I do (healthily) respect the passion that might emblazen one to such an act.
I realize upon re-reading that last paragraph, that subject does seem to be negative huh? So refocusing...The new issue of Dragon: it's a NICE big step forward! We were shunned last year when the first retro-issue came out; it's nice to get a few pages in Dragon this year. Especially with content that is actually vital to my current campaign! Oh, and very nice to see the old logo and nestled under it the "wonky cosmology" mentioned at the start of the article. That felt really good to read. And I'll be heading over to Paizo's board to let them know that, and if you liked this issue, you should to! Maybe they'll do more...
But I do have a question: Were the Scro known to be monks before? I don't recall that. In fact, I recall them being heavily ladden with spikey armor and beefy weapons. Still, if I'd have written that and wanted a more piratical slant on the Scro (which, admitedly isn't a bad idea) I'd have used a class like the Swashbuckler or something as the Scro's favored class. Stilll, it's nothing that can't be easily adapted to my campaign's style. But hey, as long as the Giff still blow themselves appart with blackpowder weapons, all will be well with my world...
"Spelljammer" has become a watered-down, catch-all phrase for "D&D in Space". That means different things to different people. Some want something true to the original boxed set. Others basically abandon all but for a few phrases, yet still call it "Spelljammer" (although most moved on to Dragonstar).
To make matters worse, of all of the D&D settings, Spelljammer had the weakest "setting". By this, I mean SJ lacked towns, NPCs, memorable villains, kingdoms, organizations, etc. There were some, but nothing to the level of other settings. What little of that we did get, was spread out across to large of an area. Too many spheres were mentioned only in passing. What few NPCs we got were dockhands and port masters. Hardly any Elminsters, Manshoons, Circle of 8, Knights of Solmana, Knights of Myth Drannor, etc. There were bits and pieces of a setting, like loose legos scattered on the floor. And when everyone put those pieces together, everyone's end result looked totally alien to everyone elses'.
Like the fans, Paizo has taken the SJ "lego" pieces and put them together, twice now. The end result certainly looks weird to me, just as other people's campaigns look weird to me, and my campaign looks weird to them. And it will probably continue as such for the foreseeable future.
I will give Spider Moon credit for trying to create a mini-setting in which to adventure.
But yeah, SJ is a term that can apply to a number of things, from classic Spelljammer to fantasy space in general to Treasure Planet and almost even Dragonstar.
its nice to see the Scro finally updated in an official way to the new 3rd or 3.5 edition, i have always loved the concept of a more rigid society of orcs and these guys were used often back when i ran a SJ campaign
the giff were cool...the first timemy group ever heard of or saw a gunpowder type pistol was in the hands of a giff sgt.
Please, please, desist dear friend, you preach to the converted. Unleash the hamster on the odious sub-humanoid that truly deserves your scorn. SpellJammer still stands as my absolute most favorite campaign setting. There are but three other settings that I love as much or almost as much as SJ and they are Dark Sun, Eberron and Planescape. All of these share the same sense of wonder and exploration. The individual who calls Giff goofy and our belovedly weird and wonky cosmology (yes it is wonky, but in a good way) is human only in name. While much of the way our little campaign is strange to those that do not understand it, we who get it, love it. You and I for the most part get the message and what the setting is all about and like working within its framework to have some real fun. The moron does not. This explains why Dark Sun got so much more coverage that Spell Jammer did and less changes from the person who is still on my list of people I would to take on a flight to europe and mid-way across the Atlantic, shove out an airlock.
This is hilarious since I'm the one who came up with the exact list of monsters for the article in #339, came up with the idea of doing the article in #339, and reintroduced the setting to a new group of gamers back in the mini-game you're still harping about years after it was published.
I said the cosmology was "wonky," which you agree with in this thread. The giff _are_ goofy, and anyone who says otherwise is a fool. Their goofiness is what attracts most of their defenders, after all.
"Shadow of the Spider Moon" was an attempt to "re-invent" the Spelljammer mythos as a one-off project. It was never intended to supplant the beloved material. The only reason we did it in the first place was because Andy and I had enjoyed Spelljammer the first time around and wanted to take a crack at redoing it on a lark. Think of it as a giant "What-If?" comic or an alternate universe or something. It was Just for Fun.
I ran a Spelljammer campaign every week for a year when the setting came out, and eagerly digested the first few years of products. Although I think it's become somewhat dated in the years since it was released, it could have been truly successful if it had been developed as a setting in its own right as opposed to a way to link the three most popular settings of the day. TSR seemed to get that by the end of the line, but by then it was too late and the iron was already cold in the eyes of most D&D players, myself included. Just think of what the production values and creative approach applied to Planescape could have done for the setting.
But whatever. If it makes you feel better to villify me, who actually likes the setting a great deal than most gamers, go ahead.
I'll be over by the airlock.
--Erik Mona
Spelljammer Fan
I ran a Spelljammer campaign every week for a year when the setting came out, and eagerly digested the first few years of products. Although I think it's become somewhat dated in the years since it was released, it could have been truly successful if it had been developed as a setting in its own right as opposed to a way to link the three most popular settings of the day. TSR seemed to get that by the end of the line, but by then it was too late and the iron was already cold in the eyes of most D&D players, myself included. Just think of what the production values and creative approach applied to Planescape could have done for the setting.
I think part of PS's success can be attributed to SJ, in that TSR learned from the mistakes made with SJ and made the necessary changes to make PS a much stronger and higher quality line. Heck, I've been told SJ was really meant as a one-shot boxed set, and that the line came about because TSR was surprised at the sales. Thus, there wasn't really a "gameplan" in place to develop the line, and they kinda hussled to get product out.
He never made a regular campaign of it, and discouraged us from going through the books, but that's because he wanted us to react as our characters would to everything in the setting- the giff, the neogi, the androgynous race (whatever they were called again), the Q'Nidar, all of the stuff that made SJ unique as its own setting.
Cliff was a good DM who was vivid in his descriptions and as such it was an unspoken agreement that he be the official SJ DM.
I remember the last SJ element he brought into a campaign was to have a WizShade transported into Ravenloft and set up as a Darklord. Just imagine Spelljammer stuff meshed with Ravenloft and you had a truly bizarre and otherworldly domain of dread...we loved it.
I said the cosmology was "wonky," which you agree with in this thread. The giff _are_ goofy, and anyone who says otherwise is a fool. Their goofiness is what attracts most of their defenders, after all.
Eric, while I appreciate the support you've offered to SJ in the past few years, I'd disagree with you on this point. The giff do not qualify as 'goofy'. The giff, along with many other aspects of the original Spelljammer, qualify as 'weird'.
The difference is subtle, but meaningful: Goofy stuff is meant to be laughed at. Weird stuff may be amusing... but it's potentially deadly, as well. Spelljammer was never intended to be silly for silliness's sake - go in that direction and you get Tales From The Floating Vagabond, or Toon in outer space.
I'd assert that quality design and editing for the Spelljammer line needs to keep this distinction firmly in mind, and create stuff that - while possibly laughable to human observers - is quite capable of taking itself seriously, and commanding respect when it needs to. Because D&D, in any flavor, doesn't tend well to slapstick. ;)
Eric, while I appreciate the support you've offered to SJ in the past few years, I'd disagree with you on this point. The giff do not qualify as 'goofy'. The giff, along with many other aspects of the original Spelljammer, qualify as 'weird'.
The difference is subtle, but meaningful: Goofy stuff is meant to be laughed at. Weird stuff may be amusing... but it's potentially deadly, as well. Spelljammer was never intended to be silly for silliness's sake - go in that direction and you get Tales From The Floating Vagabond, or Toon in outer space.
I'd assert that quality design and editing for the Spelljammer line needs to keep this distinction firmly in mind, and create stuff that - while possibly laughable to human observers - is quite capable of taking itself seriously, and commanding respect when it needs to. Because D&D, in any flavor, doesn't tend well to slapstick. ;)
I agree.
In an earlier post to this thread I ranted about TONE. This is true of DMs as well. How a DM runs his campaign, and especially villains, can greatly influence the effectiveness of the game's overall tone and the player's lasting impression on not just the game but the setting as a whole. If you treat your villains as the type of Saturday morning cartoon villain that the Smurfs or Scooby-Do can take down, than really, yeah, your campaign will come off as goofy. It would seem that Erik* has, in his mind anyway, placed the Giff into this category. Sadly, he is not alone and he is not at fault.
TSR at the time had some very talented artists whose styles were a bit on the cartoony side. Holloway in particular comes to minds.These artists were used heavily on the Spelljammer products. If those images effect the tone to which you 'see' the characters depicted, than yes, I'll concede that Spelljammer, the Giff in particular, was goofy. Gangbusters suffered the same fate for the same reason.
My group has always transcended above this, and treated Spelljammer very seriously. The Giff in particular. While living in England I saw a documentary that featured Hippos. Particularly a river were they were known to attack the local villagers when they entered the river. These beasts, despite the animal cracker conditioning instilled in us that these things are cute, can be brutally agressive and just plain mean. The bite from one of these is an image I wish I hadn't seen but maybe some of you should. Take this agressive beast, evolve it a bit, give it military uniforms and guns, and you got quite an efficient soldier. So, the images in the Spelljamer products and even the original writings tend to favor a more goofy aspect, the concept however belies a far grittier character that TSR just never seemed to connect with.
*I do NOT take the support you've given Spelljammer for granted, in fact I truly appreciate it and hope that you're able to support us further. Thanks!
I agree that SJ did not have much development of Iconic characters and that depreciates from it's ability to "plug and play." I still think that SJ's copernican style physics, star beasts, and even giant space hamsters can be eventually revived if enough interest and good work pushes it into happening. Anyone pushing in that direction is my friend.
Eric please don't take offense at his but isn't the redeemed villain an archetypal theme in literature folks? I vote we drop the rancor and work together. Cooperation always nets more than division...
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