Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Negflar2099 Dec 01, 2008 13:41:32	I am so surprised nobody has posted this yet. From the Manual of the Planes excerpt on the City of Brass: Travelers within the Elemental Chaos commonly make use of planar dromonds to reach the City of Brass, and less often find their way to the city on spelljammers, lightning skiffs, or chaos gliders. Experienced dromond captains claim that all magma flows and seas of liquid fire lead eventually to the Sea of Fire and the harbor of the City of Brass, particularly if one is traveling from another efreet settlement. The powerful will of the efreets creates stable, navigable channels of fiery liquid connecting their settlements to the capital city. Emphasis mine. This is it. Spelljammer has been officially mentioned and at last confirmed. Kaloo, kalay it's a happy day. :D
#2 lord_karsus Dec 01, 2008 18:12:27	-Even if never mentioned again, Spelljammer is something that cannot be made to go away.
#3 bigmac Dec 02, 2008 19:37:07	I am so surprised nobody has posted this yet. Maybe nobody is playing 4e games with Spelljammer, yet.:P ;) From the Manual of the Planes excerpt on the City of Brass: Travelers within the Elemental Chaos commonly make use of planar dromonds to reach the City of Brass, and less often find their way to the city on spelljammers, lightning skiffs, or chaos gliders. Experienced dromond captains claim that all magma flows and seas of liquid fire lead eventually to the Sea of Fire and the harbor of the City of Brass, particularly if one is traveling from another efreet settlement. The powerful will of the efreets creates stable, navigable channels of fiery liquid connecting their settlements to the capital city. Emphasis mine. This is it. Spelljammer has been officially mentioned and at last confirmed. Kaloo, kalay it's a happy day. :D Well, this is a lot less than SJ got during 3rd edition, but it is still early days. And if 4e Spelljammer becomes a "core product" instead of remaining an "alternative campaign setting", it might fit in a lot better with any campaign worlds that are brought out during 4e. Thanks for the news.
#4 Macadosche Dec 05, 2008 0:55:43	Check it out... this from the 12/5 posting on DND Insider: Spelljammer Gargantuan Vehicle HP 500 Space 4 squares by 8 squares Cost 3,125,000 gp AC 3; Fortitude 20, Reflex 2 Speed fly 12 (hover), overland flight 15 Pilot The pilot must sit at the spelljammer helm, typically at the rear of the spelljammer. Crew In addition to the pilot, a spelljammer requires a crew of five, all of whom use a standard action each round to help control the vessel. Reduce the spelljammer's fly speed by 4 squares for each missing crew member. At fly speed 0, the spelljammer is unable to travel and flies out of control. Load Thirty Medium creatures; forty tons of cargo. Out of Control An out-of-control spelljammer moves forward at half speed (not including any modifiers for its sails). Each round, it has 75% chance of descending. It descends 5 squares for the first 10 rounds it's out of control. After 10 rounds, it descends 10 squares per round. An out-of-control spelljammer that hits the ground after descending more than 20 squares is destroyed. Sails The spelljammer takes a penalty or bonus to its fly speed from -4 to +4 depending on the strength and direction of the wind. Spelljammer Helm (Navigation Focus) This vehicle is equipped with a spelljamming helm, which is the navigation focus for the Plane Shift ritual.
#5 colman Dec 05, 2008 2:37:40	Yes, I was looking at that: I'm not sure what to make of it. Does it imply that "spelljammers" routinely planeshift? Are they doing away with Phlogiston and getting from place to place by planar travel? Or is it simply a matter that all of the vehicles in the book mention what the navigation focus for Plane Shift is?
#6 colman Dec 05, 2008 2:40:51	On the other hand, Plane Shift is an 18th level ritual, which is a bit too high level - and probably too expensive - for "routine".
#7 lord_karsus Dec 05, 2008 10:19:23	Yes, I was looking at that: I'm not sure what to make of it. Does it imply that "spelljammers" routinely planeshift? Are they doing away with Phlogiston and getting from place to place by planar travel? Or is it simply a matter that all of the vehicles in the book mention what the navigation focus for Plane Shift is? -Like I speculated on all the way back in like, January, Spelljammer and Planescape are getting married, to a degree. Spelljammers sail through the Astral Sea (it seems), instead of "space". "Astraljammers". Why? Because of old fans or because the concept is too useful to throw in the garbage all together? -A little of both. Obviously, Spelljammer has a cult following. So, the people who like it are going to continue liking it, and using it (making up rules for it, if need be, like in 3e). And, the basic concept is pretty simple- flying magical ships. That's one of the hallmarks of fantasy. Spelljamming, it's been defined as sailing through space in the past, but as evidenced here, all WotC needs to do is wiggle the concept around a bit, and change it to whatever suits their needs to "reinvent" it.
#8 The_Jester Dec 05, 2008 10:45:33	Yup, everyone who speculated that PlaneScape and Spelljammer would be combined in the new Astral Sea (and other planes) was right. Just like Ravenloft, it's been combined into the Core? What does this mean? Well, the three settings are not likely to get their own three Campaign setting books, unlike Eberron or the Realms. Instead they're going to get little references in Core books (one-line for Spelljammer, couple paragraphs for Ravenloft/Domains of Dread). So instead of just having to buy 3 books you'll have to buy more to get all the scattered references and information. Spelljammer vessels will probably be in Adventurer's Vault 2 and more information might be referenced in future Dragon and Dungeon articles.
#9 lord_karsus Dec 05, 2008 10:50:50	Well, the three settings are not likely to get their own three Campaign setting books, unlike Eberron or the Realms. Instead they're going to get little references in Core books (one-line for Spelljammer, couple paragraphs for Ravenloft/Domains of Dread). So instead of just having to buy 3 books you'll have to buy more to get all the scattered references and information. Spelljammer vessels will probably be in Adventurer's Vault 2 and more information might be referenced in future Dragon and Dungeon articles. -The Manual of the Planes is going to be the Planescape thing, to a degree, of course. Spelljammer, I agree, it isn't going to get it's own book, and is just going to get references to here and there. To tell the truth, I appreciate that a bit more. I have always been a fan of Spelljammer, as in the concept, but not wholly the actual way things were pulled off. All you really need is "Spelljammer" as a Wondrous Item (or whatever the 4e equivalent is) in the DMG, a section describing what Spelljamming is, and you're good to go.
#10 Cpt_Micha Dec 05, 2008 11:02:38	As someone that has his own form of spelljammer (mine's called Star Chaser) this is awesome. I hope to see more of this sort of thing from wotc. I've got a feeling we'll be seeing it at least make a DDI series of some kind. And given that we are getting a setting every year... well, Spelljammer just seems like a natural candidate or at least a contender for a covetted campaign world release. I hope they modernize it a little, (somethings deserve to remain in the past) but the concept behind it is great. It certainly offers more to the genre than some other worlds do, (like Dragonlance. Which is just Genero High Fantasy 2.0)
#11 The_Jester Dec 05, 2008 12:53:45	Well, I was wrong about spelljammers in the AV2. Looks like (from the latest preview) the vehicles will be in Manual of the Planes. That's kinda cool.
#12 daeros_dup Dec 05, 2008 15:49:31	Well, I was wrong about spelljammers in the AV2. Looks like (from the latest preview) the vehicles will be in Manual of the Planes. That's kinda cool. I suspect that's a sample "base" spelljammer... We all know dwarves and elves and gnomes have totally different artistic notions and that this basic build will (or can) be expounded upon. Spelljammer will likely get just the slightest amount of coverage in MotP, with possible more ships appearing, probably, in Dragon or future supplements. I like that it's part of the core now - that will attract people who avoided it before because it was "Weird." And so, for that matter, will Sigil.
#13 colman Dec 06, 2008 4:20:46	-Like I speculated on all the way back in like, January, Spelljammer and Planescape are getting married, to a degree. Spelljammers sail through the Astral Sea (it seems), instead of "space". "Astraljammers". Except that in the City of Brass article they're careful to distinguish between planar dromonds - common there - and the much less common spelljammers. I don't believe your conclusion follows yet unless you have inside information.
#14 lord_karsus Dec 06, 2008 10:51:09	-Page 159 of the Manual of Planes. Five dollars that 'Spelljammer' is one of the vehicles listed and given stats. The at two have already been married is already established. Now it's just a guessing game as to how much.
#15 colman Dec 06, 2008 10:58:41	Well, the key, as far as I'm concerned is whether we get to keep crystal spheres and the phlostigon or not. Planar shifting between planes would rather ruin spelljamming - not to mention requiring an 18th level ritual.
#16 lord_karsus Dec 07, 2008 0:13:19	Well, the key, as far as I'm concerned is whether we get to keep crystal spheres and the phlostigon or not. Planar shifting between planes would rather ruin spelljamming - not to mention requiring an 18th level ritual. -Spelljammer as it was, I don't think is going to manifest itself exactly. So, in that sense, I don't think that there will be many mentions of Crystal Spheres, or Phlostigon (in all likelihood, it'll be done as it was in 3e- no mentions, which gives it no real support, but doesn't invalidate the older stuff, all at the same time), but the general concept of Spelljammer and Spelljamming will be given a "renewed interest". -In a way, I think I like this better. I am a fan of Spelljammer, in the concept, but not necessarily in a lot of the hallmarks that have come to define Spelljammer (Giant Miniature Space Hampsters...).
#17 colman Dec 07, 2008 6:32:08	By "Crystal spheres" I also include the idea of there being a space with planets and stuff in it - it's been alluded to in FR 4e, so I'm expecting that to be there. How one gets from one space to another is the interesting bit.
#18 sefotron Dec 07, 2008 9:17:10	Awesome! One of my 4e groups have, in the last session, just left the main campaign world and entered the feastness of space, so this will be very welcome! Yay!
#19 cilionelle Dec 07, 2008 16:52:44	Why doesn't the Spelljammer vehicle have decks?
#20 HobbitFan Dec 07, 2008 20:40:05	I really don't think that we'll see Crystal Spheres or the Flow again, at least not in the 2E way. I do think its highly likely that the Spelljammers in the Manual of the Planes will be some sort of Astral ship. When they renamed it the Astral Sea, it seemed pretty obvious that there would be ships sailing it. Probably giant Astral beasties too, some of which will probably be redone 1E-2E monsters, maybe reflavored.
#21 colman Dec 08, 2008 2:06:01	Well, we'll know next week, won't we?
#22 vebrandsson Dec 13, 2008 11:55:27	Well I'd have to point out that the opaque crystal spheres and the flow can't be done the 2e way, just the concept of the star warlock ruins that. For those who remember the "stars" seen from planets were either holes in the crystal sphere or some simular noncelestial phenomenon, but when you look through articles like the "Wish upon a Star" warlock article you learn that they are making pacts with real visible stars, so you can't have a 2e style crystal sphere anymore. And the phlogestion thus can't be what it used to be as it would also distroy your view of the night sky. Now could you possibly do a clear crystal sphere and have some kind of intersystem currents, yes, but it wouldn't be the ever fun combustible phlogestion. My other concern with a 4e spelljammer system is that the already problematic square system is horrible enough once you throw in walls or particularly aerial combat (particularly for determining range), or anything else that goes above a 2-D game, I don't know if the system would work for two ships on an ocean, much less two Spelljammers flying about wildspace at tactical speed. As much as I'd love to see a 4e Spelljammer setting I'm afraid WotC is just going to screw it up like they have everything else.
#23 colman Dec 15, 2008 3:08:07	Not all stars need be the same. Maybe some "stars" on a crystal sphere are mystical reflections of the "real" "star" in the Far Realm (which is how I read the star warlock stuff).
#24 Negflar2099 Dec 15, 2008 16:28:23	By "Crystal spheres" I also include the idea of there being a space with planets and stuff in it - it's been alluded to in FR 4e, so I'm expecting that to be there. How one gets from one space to another is the interesting bit. It's also mentioned in the Worlds and Monsters preview book that Mindflayers possibly came from other planets and as someone else pointed out, FRCG has an article that describes the cosmos being built from the Phlostigon. There's definitely reason to think there will be other planets and that Spelljammer ships is how you get there. The structure of that space is what's unknown right now.
#25 colman Dec 16, 2008 2:13:01	And the structure of the space is still unknown: they've left it up to the DM. I've just scanned through the Manual of the Planes pdf and this is almost all you get: The World: The mortal plane of existence is the natural world. This world may be Abeir-Toril, Athas, Eberron, Krynn, Oerth, or a world of your own devising. This plane also encompasses the space between worlds. They explicitly say that it's up to the DM how to move between worlds such as Abeir-Toril and Eberron (if it's possible at all) and describe spelljammers as "a fantastic flying vessel" with only the vaguest hints of what they might be used for. The Manual of the Planes hardly touches on the Material World at all, dealing instead with the rest of the cosmology. So they haven't broken Spelljammer, but they haven't done anything more than incorporation the vessels into planar travel via the Plane Shift ritual and spec up a basic spelljamming vessel. I was sort of hoping for details of helms ... might see that in a DDI article, I suppose.
#26 colman Dec 17, 2008 6:16:18	Missed this bit in my scan: The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos are infinite. The mortal world (and therefore the parallel planes, too) may be infinite or it may not be. It depends on if one considers the vast starry void beyond the skies of the mortal world to be part of the world or if the stars are merely lights suspended inside a vast but finite crystal sphere.
#27 Sword_of_Spirit Dec 18, 2008 3:10:29	Missed this bit in my scan: Interesting. Well there won't be a phlogiston. That's just my opinion, but it's based on observation of 4E design philosophy. More likely, if there is any support for Spelljammer (probably in an article or two, rather than an actual book) they will simply indicate that crystal spheres, and hence "the World", reside within the Elemental Chaos (or "outside the crystal spheres is the Elemental Chaos"). This changes nothing about 4E cosmology, it just adds the options that if you fly far enough out into space you run into a wall that has a lot of portals into the Elemental Chaos. But I'm not even worrying about 4E Spelljammer or Planescape. It seems easier to me just play 4E as it's designed to be played, and leave the bits of awesomeness that are Spelljammer and Planescape to previous edition--and keep playing them! I'm still working on my 3.5 Spelljammer conversion rules, since I'm not fully satisfied with any of the ones I've looked at. One of these days they shall be completed. Muhahahahahaha! Er, uhm...
#28 colman Dec 18, 2008 7:06:34	Well, they very clearly leave it open to the DM. From the tone of the book they don't appear to intend clarifying the details of the plane the World is in.
#29 darktouch Dec 18, 2008 12:11:16	Was just flipping through the book in the bookstore. Here are my thoughts: Astral Sea = Space now and each of the Astral Domains seem to be planets that you can fly to. I'm kinda ok with this as it helps with a 'Behind the moon' sense of old fairy tales. Still, It is apparently possible to sail so far out from the current set of Astral Domains that you end up in an entirely different neighborhood of astral domains.. It probably wouldn't be too hard to shove a Crystal Sphere in there somewhere if you wanted to. Spelljammers are THE way to travel the planes in style. They're the next step up from Planar Drommond which can planar shift from one body of water to another.. where as Spelljammers can fly and thus planeshift just about anywhere. The stats for the Spelljammer in the book (and the preview) are for a 'typical' Spelljammer. The differences between a Hammership and a Tradesman are probably mostly cosmetic anyway but I can imagine the stats for a Man-O-War might get beefed up a little bit. This may take a little digesting to see how I want to fit it into my own sphere.
#30 colman Dec 18, 2008 13:35:41	Well, you can interpret it that way if you want, but that doesn't seem to be the intention, to my reading - and I've had time to read it quickly rather than just scan. They open structure of the Material leaves it open for SJ if you want and the allusions in the FRCG don't damage that idea at all.
#31 darktouch Dec 18, 2008 15:27:37	Not exactly sure what you're disagreeing with.