Anoo, here's hoping it too gets the hardback treatment!
While I love Spelljammer's feel and style, I wonder how it would fit in given that it was originally designed as a meta campaign. Ie a Campaign to join all the other ones together.
I read all the 2nd ed stuff about Spelljammer but I never was able to play in a game. It would be nice to see it as a full fledged setting on it's own and make an official comeback.
I think it could fit in the current cosmologies just fine. Especially if you are limited to your own setting. IE: This is how it works, this is how it relates to X setting. There isn't any phlogiston travel.
That would cut down on the cross setting issues, and you can still have your D&D in space.
Further if they use the other planets for ground based adventures you can still have destinations that aren't in wildspace. Then asteroids, old derelict ships, and whatnot can still functions as bases of operations and adventure sites.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Then again, there isn't any reason why it couldn't be. Firefly? *cough*
If there is to be a 4e writeup, I wouldn't mind seeing what is in store for ship combat.
"you only have airships? come on then, you have got to see this."
I do think that Spelljammer and Planescape bear a close relationship but I also notice that certain campaigns do better without spelljammers (Greyhawk, Eberron, and Dragonlance -- it seems to ruin the settings of these places), while some game worlds make spelljamming a more interesting campaign (Planescape, Ravenloft, Dark Sun). Forgotten Realms might have spelljammers but even with the old official line, it doesn't seem as if they should be very widespread and should probably keep their presence quiet. After all, if everyone in Toril were spelljamming, what would be the point of adventuring in the Forgotten Realms, a bland and generic game world that has no real identity outside its commercial presence as a replacement for Greyhawk? However, it seems as if the strife between the deities of Abeir-Toril might be fought through Spelljammers who operate covertly but with great power to wield. I know this thwarts the 96 page interpetation of Spelljamming in Realmspace, but I do not think the spelljammer presence in Abeir-Toril is particularly well reasoned nor integrated.
The fact that Eberron seems so ideal for spelljamming to some is irrefutable on a personal and subjective level, but objectively we must remember that the seperation of Eberron from "outer planes" is for reason of drawing players more into the sense of limited power and organizational intrigue which are actually Eberron's strong points. Eberron isn't full of all powerful wizards and deific avatars. It's a land of pulp adventure ala Indiana Jones or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, where mortals vie with mortals. While there are air ships in Eberron, these are not to be confused with spelljammer ships. It is that I do not like Eberron for personal reasons not entirely due to its thievery from Blackmoor. However, should Eberron become profuse with Spelljammers this would not ruin aught. Since the dragons of Eberron are exquisitely powerful it is likely they would capture spelljammers and put them to use or slay them.
Greyhawk does not initially appear ideal as a large spelljammer trope, but Greyspace would be refutation of my opinion -- but not an effective refutation. Again, a better consideration of Greyspace spelljamming would be preferrable, especially in light of Greyhawk and its present situation as well as its history and style.
In essence, while I feel that every campaign setting *could* have spelljammers it is more than likely that most do not see spelljammers flaunt their power and retain their vehicle of spelljammer. I do not doubt the large possibility that spelljammer books will appear in publication from 4e, given this edition's other disgraces, but it is also my hope that each spelljammer accessory will be seriously attended to rather than be a coeterie of cheap strumpets.
Again, it seems to me most reasonable that Spelljamming would only appear centrally in a Wildspace or Planescape campaign and extend outward to Abeir-Toril (or Greyhawk should it ever be well structured in light of spelljamming) where Spelljammers would operate in secrecy. As power grows, Spelljammers would probably extend to Darkspace and then to Ravenspace -- as it is more than likely that rescues of mortal inhabitants of Darkspace and Ravenspace would yield grateful allies. Furthermore artifacts from these places would be rare and interesting.
Again, it seems to me most reasonable that Spelljamming would only appear centrally in a wildspace or Planescape campaign and extend outward to Abeir-Toril (or Greyhawk should it ever be well structured in light of spelljamming) where Spelljammers would operate in secrecy. As power grows, Spelljammers would probably extend to Darkspace and then to Ravenspace -- as it is more than likely that rescues of mortal inhabitants of Darkspace and Ravenspace would yield grateful allies. Furthermore artifacts from these places would be rare and interesting.
I don't quite understand how you are linking Planescape with Spelljammer.
Spelljammer takes place on the Prime Material plane, with an adjunct to the phlogiston which exists in the "space" between the crystal spheres which house the alternate Prime Materials. With a few minor exceptions, Spelljammer is rooted in the Prime Material, and has little to nothing to do with the planes.
Planescape on the other hand, is pretty much about everything *except* the Prime Material planes.
So while they intersect via the various Prime Material and transitive planes (astral, shadow, ethereal) they have *nothing* to do with each other.
Furthermore, Ravenloft is a demi-plane that is tenuously linked with Prime. If I recall, getting in and out is limited to will of the Dark Powers (read DM fiat). There is no wildspace connection. So unless something drastically changes about both Spelljammer and Ravenloft, you can't get there from here. If Shemeska is reading this, I'd love to hear her take. Not to mention, I don't see the Dark Powers allowing "rescues" from wildspace from occurring. They like making people suffer.
In regards to Dark Sun, as I recall it was an isolated setting. In one of the DS books it addresses the fact that no one has found a reliable planar path from the other Prime Materials to DS. Same with a phlogiston current. That said, there *was* a connection to and from Dark Sun and Ravenloft which, by extension, meant the other Prime Materials. However, once again it would require the Dark Powers to take you in and spit you out into a different Prime Material. Somehow the Dark Powers don't strike me as that forgiving or accommodating.
Side note: One of the rumors I often heard about Dark Sun was that it was a future Toril, which accounted for its relative isolation. The assumption was drawn from combination of an artifact from the second edition Book of Artifacts and the fact that there were significant place names associated with both. The one that I remember is the Anauroch.
So, unless there were changes in 4th ed, I am missing the connection you are drawing. Unless you are assuming they rebuilt the settings to accommodate open travel rather than the "official" limited travel.
I do, however, agree that Eberron should remain isolated to keep its flavor and feel. Eberron, by design, doesn't wander in the same uni/multi-verse as other settings, except incidentally (via the transitive planes). I wouldn't be surprised if a variation of the Traveler's curse that affects Xen'drik wouldn't also affect Eberron's crystal sphere making it not worth the trip.
As far as the historical integration with existing settings, I disagree. I think the connection was intentionally weak. After all, wildspace traveling adventurers (and even empires) have little use for planets here and there, since the war is among the stars not on the ground. Not to mention, taking over planets, for the most part, is more work than it's worth in Spelljammer. So it would be in the best interest of spelljammer travelers to stay quiet and hidden to the planet bound, so they didn't have to watch multiple fronts more than they already do. Those countries that have wildspace faring ships (such as Evermeet and the country that was part of the Kara-tur setting) already keep them under wraps for security and protection from possible wildspace invasion. Which, of course, never materializes.
I disagree also in regards to the setting flavor. If the planet is only a pit stop, and wildspace adventurers keep to themselves, they aren't going to interfere or make a big impact on the setting at all. The result is the common feel or politics of the setting isn't affected in any way.
Put another way: If a GM chooses not to use Spelljammer, the campaign ignores it and there isn't any impact on the planet-bound as there is no interaction with wildspace. If the GM uses Spelljammer, anything that happens on a planet is going to be limited at best, since the whole point is to have D&D in space.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Ive built 8 spheres that share a cosmology, and limited the deities of each sphere to nine.....
I dumped some thing me and my group deemed as silly.....Tinker gnomes, space Hamsters.....etc.....
And I've tried to avoid campaign specific elements....like Warforges and the Forgotten Realms versions of Drow, in other word no Lloth.
I dig the campaign and so does my group......I was influenced alot by Treasure planet. LOL
Night Druid's Great work over at the "official" site was great help too!
It always tickles me when complain that all of the spheres don't have the same cosmology. I don't see why people can't wrap their heads around the fact that all spheres can have different cosmology. The only thing that links them is the phlogiston & the astral plane. All planets don't have the same geography, so why shoul;d they have the same cosmology?
Heck, different parts of Aber-Toril don't even share the same cosmology. Kara-tur and Maztica don't even connect to the Great Tree, and Al-Quadim has only the most tenuous connections. There's no reason why you slide a couple of thousand miles across to another crystal sphere where the the only other planes are (to take examples at random) the Plane of Mirrors and the Elemental planes.
This makes sense from a certain approach and was almost similar to some of the more pastoral (and less horrific) portions of Lovecraft's writings. Not many folk care to talk about Lovecraft's cosmology outside horror considerations, but really, there's some beautiful ideas.
In any case, I do believe that Spelljammers should be able to fly the astral plane so to speak, freely and easily. It makes for more fun and creates a sense of wild wandering and freedom.
It always tickles me when complain that all of the spheres don't have the same cosmology. I don't see why people can't wrap their heads around the fact that all spheres can have different cosmology. The only thing that links them is the phlogiston & the astral plane. All planets don't have the same geography, so why shoul;d they have the same cosmology?
Because the setting said that they were made that way.
The sphere and phlogiston thing just never worked. Set up large gates in space to the Shadow plane and let them access another gate somewhere else to another campaign setting. That's all you need.
Because if you're going to have ships and space pirates, well you should have cannons that work reliably, and not blow up in your face.
Here's a simple formula:
Naval Battles + Pirates + Cannons = Good
Naval Battles + Pirates + Catapults and Ballistas = Ugh
And finally SJ should be it's own independent setting. I didn't like the whole Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace stuff that they had.
They just should have focused on the Rock of Bral in it's own solar system called the Bral System. Threw in the Astromundi Cluster and many strange worlds and unexplored systems, and not bother to fit GH, DL and FR into it.
I think it could fit in the current cosmologies just fine. Especially if you are limited to your own setting. IE: This is how it works, this is how it relates to X setting. There isn't any phlogiston travel.
That would cut down on the cross setting issues, and you can still have your D&D in space.
They tried the single solar system approach with Shadows of the Spider Moon and many SJ fans hated it.
I do agree that SJ should stand up if used in a single crystal sphere, but I also strongly believe that it must also work for the fans who like using it as a transitive setting that links other worlds. If you don't have that aspect, you don't have Spelljammer.
The sphere and phlogiston thing just never worked. Set up large gates in space to the Shadow plane and let them access another gate somewhere else to another campaign setting. That's all you need.
Crystal spheres and the phlogiston are based on real world philosophical concepts, so fit into a fantasy space concept a lot better than gates in space. That just sounds too much like Babylon 5 to me. It is too sci-fi to feel like Spelljammer.
Any connections between wildspace and Planescape should be secret things that only a few people know about.
I never liked the Phlogiston.
Because if you're going to have ships and space pirates, well you should have cannons that work reliably, and not blow up in your face.
Here's a simple formula:
Naval Battles + Pirates + Cannons = Good
Naval Battles + Pirates + Catapults and Ballistas = Ugh
The Phlogiston is something that some people love and some people hate. The thing I like about it is that it is so "foggy" a ship can get lost between the spheres and end up anywhere the DM likes.
As for the cannos thing, that is an issue with D&D rather than Spelljammer. FRCS, DLCS and Greyhawk are all low on cannons and any fantasy setting connected to them is stuck with what they do.
And finally SJ should be it's own independent setting. I didn't like the whole Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace stuff that they had.
I think there were issues with the SJ products about Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace, but the basic concepts of spacefarers living in spheres surrounding AD&Ds biggest campaign settings was a sound one.
I would like to see each of those crystal spheres brought back as a hardback book that works with both the groundling campaign setting and the SJ rules to make something that is better than both. The 2nd edition products didn't manage to do that.
They just should have focused on the Rock of Bral in it's own solar system called the Bral System. Threw in the Astromundi Cluster and many strange worlds and unexplored systems, and not bother to fit GH, DL and FR into it.
The Rock of Bral is located in a crystal sphere called Spiralspace. The Cloakmaster Cycle novels tell you this, but the AD&D Adventures in Wildspace told DMs they could put it anywhere. I agree that was a mistake and would like to see Spiralspace made the central sphere of a 4th edition Spelljammer Campaign Setting.
I like the Astromundi Cluster, but it is a "Hotel California sphere" (i.e. you can enter, but you can never leave). This makes it less useful for low to mid level SJ adventures. The Cloakmaster Cycle and the SJ RPG books can give us a few more crystal spheres, but they are not really enough.
I believe that Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace are key to encouraging crossover players to try out Spelljammer. I don't think it the game will bring in enough customers to work if you don't provide support for crossover players.
In fact I am so certain that Spelljammer needs crossover players, that I think that Wizards of the Coast should put the fundimental rules of setting up a crystal sphere into the 4e SRD. This will allow 3rd party publishers to provide crystal spheres that a SJ DM can bolt onto the ones provided by WotC.
The beauty of crystal spheres, is that a DM can decide to avoid using any particular sphere without the continuity of the Spelljammer Campaign Setting collapsing. So if you don't like the Raidant Triangle you can just put the players somewhere else.
I don't quite understand how you are linking Planescape with Spelljammer.
Spelljammer makes no references to Planescape, but does have Planar Churches and Polygot Faiths. Both of these religions deal with collections of gods on other planes and it doesn't take a great leap to infer that some higher members of these faiths might use spells to try to make contact with the servants of their gods.
The Celestians from The Complete Spacefarers Guide (and originally from Greyhawk Adventues) are also used in the Planescape Campaign Setting and form a clear link between the two settings. Unless you assume that one set of Celestians leave Oerth via Planewalking and the other set leave via Spelljamming there must be some people who use both types of travel.
Furthermore, Ravenloft is a demi-plane that is tenuously linked with Prime. If I recall, getting in and out is limited to will of the Dark Powers (read DM fiat). There is no wildspace connection. So unless something drastically changes about both Spelljammer and Ravenloft, you can't get there from here. If Shemeska is reading this, I'd love to hear her take. Not to mention, I don't see the Dark Powers allowing "rescues" from wildspace from occurring. They like making people suffer.
Wizards of the Coast licenced a 3rd party publisher to bring out a 3rd edition version of Ravenloft. They did a reboot that involved dumping the Demiplane of Dread. Septembervirgin may have used that edition of Ravenloft.
Personally, I prefer Ravenloft to be a transitive setting (that can connect to any other or all other campaign settings).
Your memory of SJ and Ravenloft isn't quite correct. The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook says that it is possible for the mists to appear in wildspace and capture any spelljamming ship that sails into them. However, ships inside the Demiplane can't sail out via spelljamming. They get turned around by the mists and sent back to Ravenloft. (This means that you can use Ravenloft with Spelljammer if you want to.) Ravenloft, like SJs Astromundi Cluster, is a Hotel California setting.
In regards to Dark Sun, as I recall it was an isolated setting. In one of the DS books it addresses the fact that no one has found a reliable planar path from the other Prime Materials to DS. Same with a phlogiston current. That said, there *was* a connection to and from Dark Sun and Ravenloft which, by extension, meant the other Prime Materials. However, once again it would require the Dark Powers to take you in and spit you out into a different Prime Material. Somehow the Dark Powers don't strike me as that forgiving or accommodating.
The Complete Spacefarers Handbook said that the crystal sphere containing Athas wasn't near to the spheres of The Radiant Triangle. It also said that no books told of the routes to its crystal sphere and that no spelljamming ships flew in Athas's sky. However, while that is negative information it is confirmation that Athas does have a crystal sphere and that there are (unknown) routes to it.
That hasn't stopped Beyond the Moons (the official Spelljammer website) from publishing a Spelljammer/Dark Sun crossover called The Crimson Sphere.
So, unless there were changes in 4th ed, I am missing the connection you are drawing. Unless you are assuming they rebuilt the settings to accommodate open travel rather than the "official" limited travel.
I was under the impression that 4th edition hadn't been released yet. Do you mean 3rd edition?
I do, however, agree that Eberron should remain isolated to keep its flavor and feel.
I don't use Ebberon, so can't comment on this.
I think the connection was intentionally weak.
I agree with that. Spelljammer needs the connection to be there to bring in players from the crossover market, but it also needs to stand up on its own feet.
If a GM chooses not to use Spelljammer, the campaign ignores it and there isn't any impact on the planet-bound as there is no interaction with wildspace. If the GM uses Spelljammer, anything that happens on a planet is going to be limited at best, since the whole point is to have D&D in space.
Hmm. It is strange that Spelljammer fans always end up saying this sort of thing in this way instead of turning it around and saying: "If a Spelljammer GM choses not to use Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk the campaign ignores Krynnspace, Realmspace or Greyspace and there isn't any impact on spacefarers as there is no interaction with the groundling worlds."
Because the setting said that they were made that way.
The sphere and phlogiston thing just never worked. Set up large gates in space to the Shadow plane and let them access another gate somewhere else to another campaign setting. That's all you need.
I NEVER read anything that said all spheres had the same cosmology. The above idea sounds about the same as the Phlogiston would in play. The Flow was always just a fantasy hyperspace. I had no problems with it the entire time I ran Spelljammer, which was right after it was originally released.
The Hackmaster version of Spelljammer, Hackjammer, made it so that the Spheres were not physically present in the Prime Material. You had to go out to it's location, then cast Open Portal. The Spheres where present once you crossed into the Flow. That allows Spelljammer & SciFi starships to exist, if you so desire.
Crystal spheres and the phlogiston are based on real world philosophical concepts, so fit into a fantasy space concept a lot better than gates in space. That just sounds too much like Babylon 5 to me. It is too sci-fi to feel like Spelljammer.And people once thought tomatoes were poison as well, but I don't see a reason to bring that into the game.
The real world concepts you are refering to are not really medieval fantasy. It's a later period. But if the did a reboot and moved to a reniassance period, I could see that. But the game is not going in that direction. It's going more or less in the opposite direction.
Then there is another problem. The canon of some of the novels invalidates the Spelljammer storyline. Krynn has been moved and for a time was hidden for it's gods. And WOTC doesn't go backwards with it's canon with the novels. The Manual of the Planes 3.0, Forgotten Realms 3.0 and Deities and Demigods 3.0 insist that the game worlds all exist in thier own cosmologies and only intersect in one place to begin and that is the Shadow Plane and then later with Sigil: The City of Doors. Eberron is considered disconnected as well and only the strongest of magics can move for one game world to the other.
The Crystal Spheres were without a doubt one of the largest things that people hated about the game. There where also the many polls done across the internet, I know there was one done on Enworld. I believe the only thing that can as close to it was the way certain races were writen up. When it came time for Piazo to write up a Spelljammer mini game, they avoided any mention of crystal spheres at all knowing that they were disliked so much.
Another complaint that many people has is the way that physics played out in the game. Gravity being a main issue. Catapults shouldn't have ever worked in space the way they where portrayed. That can be overcome with a changing in what would be acceptable armorments.
The reason I suggest that they link the game worlds is a practical one. Adventures on gameworld could run from 1-10. Games in space 11-20 and Games 21-30 on the planes. Spelljammers can carry adventurers through 2/3 of the games.
I NEVER read anything that said all spheres had the same cosmology. The above idea sounds about the same as the Phlogiston would in play. The Flow was always just a fantasy hyperspace. I had no problems with it the entire time I ran Spelljammer, which was right after it was originally released.
The Hackmaster version of Spelljammer, Hackjammer, made it so that the Spheres were not physically present in the Prime Material. You had to go out to it's location, then cast Open Portal. The Spheres where present once you crossed into the Flow. That allows Spelljammer & SciFi starships to exist, if you so desire.
That was a outcome of 2e D&D writing. During 2e Planescape assumed that FR, GH and Krynn all shared the wheel and on the same prime material plane. The flow would lead guide you from one sphere to another.
The hackmaster version seems to be a good idea too. But I was thinking more or less that a ship would have to be able to use a "Astro-navigation" to find certain stars in a certain alignment for the gate to work. Something more or less a "the stars have to be right" thing. This would make it more "mystical" and still fits a simpler concept of sailing. You leave when the tide is right and the wind works with you. It also make ships more open to attack form pirates. Hence the need for adventures.
Then there is another problem. The canon of some of the novels invalidates the Spelljammer storyline. Krynn has been moved and for a time was hidden for it's gods. And WOTC doesn't go backwards with it's canon with the novels.
This is not a problem for Grubbian Spelljammer (if the crystal spheres are retained). Krynn gets torn out of Krynnspace and taken to a new crystal sphere. The Dragonlance gods are unable to find this crystal sphere for a number of years, but then they rediscover their world and turn the new crystal sphere into something that looks like the description in DLCS. The new crystal sphere would need to be far away from The Radiant Triangle and the original Krynnspace would become a "Krynnlessspace"! ;)
(And from a Planewalkers point of view, after the rediscovery of Krynn, both crystal spheres would connect to The Gate of Souls and the 3 Dragonlance Outer Planes.)
Sorted!
The Manual of the Planes 3.0, Forgotten Realms 3.0 and Deities and Demigods 3.0 insist that the game worlds all exist in thier own cosmologies and only intersect in one place to begin and that is the Shadow Plane and then later with Sigil: The City of Doors.
Again not a problem if crystal spheres are used. Each crystal sphere will link to the appropriate cosmology and the bits of cosmolgy that are the same in different crystal spheres (as defined by the groundling world campaign setting) will also allow Planewalkers to make detours that continue to allow them to travel between game worlds.
The Phlogiston blocks interdimensional travel, so is a perfect way to connect different parts of the Material Plane that have separate cosmologies.
BTW: I have not seen any reference to Sigil in DLCS, so don't believe that The City of Doors connects (directly) to Krynn.
I believe that Planewalkers could travel between spheres via the other two transitive planes (Astral or Etherial) and also via any elemental plane that both spheres had in common (the Plane of Elemental Air would be one way to go).
Eberron is considered disconnected as well and only the strongest of magics can move for one game world to the other.
I don't use Eberron, so am not currently concerned with how well or badly it fits into a SJ game. The three campaign settings that are associated with The Radiant Triangle are my main priority.
The Crystal Spheres were without a doubt one of the largest things that people hated about the game.
Well that is your opinion, but I know people who love them.
There where also the many polls done across the internet, I know there was one done on Enworld. I believe the only thing that can as close to it was the way certain races were writen up. When it came time for Piazo to write up a Spelljammer mini game, they avoided any mention of crystal spheres at all knowing that they were disliked so much.
If that is true then it is strange how SJ fans that dislike Shadows of the Spider Moon hate all of the changes that they made to Spelljammer.
Another complaint that many people has is the way that physics played out in the game. Gravity being a main issue. Catapults shouldn't have ever worked in space the way they where portrayed. That can be overcome with a changing in what would be acceptable armorments.
It is strange how people accept flying dragons and magic carpets yet blame SJ for not being scientific. SJ is not a sci-fi game so doesn't need to have realistic science. Trust the Grubbmeister and sit back and enjoy the view.
The reason I suggest that they link the game worlds is a practical one. Adventures on gameworld could run from 1-10. Games in space 11-20 and Games 21-30 on the planes. Spelljammers can carry adventurers through 2/3 of the games.
It should be possible to have low level, heroic level or epic level games in the Spelljammer or Planescape Campaign Settings.
And I want the game worlds to be linked too - I just want them to be linked in the Spelljammer way - via the Phlogiston.
-Cannon *suck* for fantasy settings, except as very exotic, rare things, or...totally magical (and still rare). Cannons are suicide in a magical millieu, because one Fireball would turn a cannon into bomb, on your own deck! ;)
Can we also say: fire in the magazine?
-Ballsitas/catpaults rely mor eon heroic action, than chemistry and are thus, more fun. Folk over look fun, at their peril.
Much as some folk like the FLow, and others don't, just like the planar comsology: YOU CAN HAVE IT ANYWAY YOU WANT! It's your campaign.
-Maybe outside solar systems, SJ ships accelrate to "ridiculous speed" (hehe), or "stars" are really wormholes or gates to other places.
-Me, I like the Flow, it's weird, and that's good, because this is fantasy, not flipping Star Trek! :D
The Celestians from The Complete Spacefarers Guide (and originally from Greyhawk Adventues) are also used in the Planescape Campaign Setting and form a clear link between the two settings. Unless you assume that one set of Celestians leave Oerth via Planewalking and the other set leave via Spelljamming there must be some people who use both types of travel.
Thank you for that bit of education. I didn't even know there was a Complete Spacefarers. Weren't there also the Mercane/Arcane race that ended up in odd places too? Planescape and Spelljammer included, but they weren't seen much in the basic campaign settings? (They were a race of merchants that sold magical gear including spelljamming helms and things that allowed interplanar travel, if I recall.)
Wizards of the Coast licenced a 3rd party publisher to bring out a 3rd edition version of Ravenloft. They did a reboot that involved dumping the Demiplane of Dread. Septembervirgin may have used that edition of Ravenloft.
Ahh, I missed that aspect of the new version. I only have the first 3e Ravenloft book, and I skimmed more than read it, as my table wasn't very interested in it.
Your memory of SJ and Ravenloft isn't quite correct. The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook says that it is possible for the mists to appear in wildspace and capture any spelljamming ship that sails into them. However, ships inside the Demiplane can't sail out via spelljamming. They get turned around by the mists and sent back to Ravenloft. (This means that you can use Ravenloft with Spelljammer if you want to.) Ravenloft, like SJs Astromundi Cluster, is a Hotel California setting.
Once again, my ignorance of a book strikes again.
I wonder if there were any races in that book that would affect the race totals in my sig?The Complete Spacefarers Handbook said that the crystal sphere containing Athas wasn't near to the spheres of The Radiant Triangle. It also said that no books told of the routes to its crystal sphere and that no spelljamming ships flew in Athas's sky. However, while that is negative information it is confirmation that Athas does have a crystal sphere and that there are (unknown) routes to it.
Interesting. Heh, that kinda kills the Athas as the Forgotten Realms future theory.
I was under the impression that 4th edition hadn't been released yet. Do you mean 3rd edition?
Blame it on improper use of the language. I meant 3e with implications to future changes in 4th. Somehow that was garbled in the translation between brain and fingers.
Hmm. It is strange that Spelljammer fans always end up saying this sort of thing in this way instead of turning it around and saying: "If a Spelljammer GM choses not to use Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk the campaign ignores Krynnspace, Realmspace or Greyspace and there isn't any impact on spacefarers as there is no interaction with the groundling worlds."
In my defense, that's because I don't think of DM's being defined by the settings they choose to run. All of the GMs that I play with are very flexible in their setting use. They don't always use all parts of a setting, and sometimes they introduce elements of another setting. So for me, a GM uses a setting (or it's elements) or he doesn't.
For instance, one of the rotational DMs in my primary gaming group, like Spelljammer but hasn't run it in a long time because his wife doesn't like it. However, in ground based campaigns we've occasionally come across crashed shipwrecks that the party couldn't identify and were in odd places far from the sea. Conversely, when he ran Spelljammer he never had a focus on ground based stuff to begin with, avoided Krynnspace because he hates Dragonlance, and the main focus was wildspace and the PC's. (With occasional Star Trek and Star Wars references.)
Whereas another of my rotational GMs never used (and disliked) Spelljammer, but plane hopping between FR, Greyhawk, and DL via the astral and ethereal was okay.
So I stand by my original statement.
Either a GM uses Spelljammer or he doesn't, but either way there is minimal impact on the related ground world settings.As always, your mileage may vary.
This is not a problem for Grubbian Spelljammer (if the crystal spheres are retained). Krynn gets torn out of Krynnspace and taken to a new crystal sphere. The Dragonlance gods are unable to find this crystal sphere for a number of years, but then they rediscover their world and turn the new crystal sphere into something that looks like the description in DLCS. The new crystal sphere would need to be far away from The Radiant Triangle and the original Krynnspace would become a "Krynnlessspace"! ;)
(And from a Planewalkers point of view, after the rediscovery of Krynn, both crystal spheres would connect to The Gate of Souls and the 3 Dragonlance Outer Planes.)
Sorted!
Again not a problem if crystal spheres are used. Each crystal sphere will link to the appropriate cosmology and the bits of cosmolgy that are the same in different crystal spheres (as defined by the groundling world campaign setting) will also allow Planewalkers to make detours that continue to allow them to travel between game worlds.
The Phlogiston blocks interdimensional travel, so is a perfect way to connect different parts of the Material Plane that have separate cosmologies.
BTW: I have not seen any reference to Sigil in DLCS, so don't believe that The City of Doors connects (directly) to Krynn.
I believe that Planewalkers could travel between spheres via the other two transitive planes (Astral or Etherial) and also via any elemental plane that both spheres had in common (the Plane of Elemental Air would be one way to go).
I don't use Eberron, so am not currently concerned with how well or badly it fits into a SJ game. The three campaign settings that are associated with The Radiant Triangle are my main priority.
Well that is your opinion, but I know people who love them.
If that is true then it is strange how SJ fans that dislike Shadows of the Spider Moon hate all of the changes that they made to Spelljammer.
It is strange how people accept flying dragons and magic carpets yet blame SJ for not being scientific. SJ is not a sci-fi game so doesn't need to have realistic science. Trust the Grubbmeister and sit back and enjoy the view.
It should be possible to have low level, heroic level or epic level games in the Spelljammer or Planescape Campaign Settings.
And I want the game worlds to be linked too - I just want them to be linked in the Spelljammer way - via the Phlogiston.
Not sorted. Read the books if you want to work out the meta game. Atleast do some homework. The crystal spheres are bygone. Done. Good riddence.
Not sorted. Read the books if you want to work out the meta game. Atleast do some homework. The crystal spheres are bygone. Done. Good riddence.
Are they gone, or do you just wish they were gone?
Let’s just say, for the purpose of the argument that we removed the crystal spheres and the flow from the game, would it still be Spelljammer? Does your hypergate idea mean that the game is still “Swashbuckling Adventure in Space” or has it just crept a little farther from Pirates and a little closer to Star Trek/Wars?
What about weapons, if you remove ballistas and catapults and add in cannons would it still be Spelljammer? (This is of course ignoring the reason cannons weren’t used, because you have already removed the flow and crystal spheres where the gods decree that black powder doesn’t work) In a universe where a thirty foot ling lizard can fly and breathe fire is it so horrible that a catapult works in space?
Making it a stand alone setting, set in “Bralspace” and completely disconnected from any other setting, does that mean you are still playing in a Spelljammer game?
If you were to get rid of gravity planes and air envelopes and just made all ships airtight hulls, would it still be Spelljammer? I don’t think you can buckle much swash inside of a submarine, even if that submarine is in space.
There are a few things that make Spelljammer, well, Spelljammer, and to remove them is to change the setting in drastic ways. I run Spelljammer, I love Spelljammer, but I also love Star Trek and Star Wars. I wouldn’t try to mix them, because they aren’t the same thing. The problem is that people see the “in Space” part of Spelljammer and immediately expect that it is going to be Star Trek/Star Wars/Lost in Space/B5/Ect. That’s not Spelljammer. Spelljammer is not Sci-fi, It’s Fantasy. “It’s Magic and It Knows It’s Magic!” is my favorite quote from the campaign setting.
Meh, I'm not sure why I'm asking, since if there's a good reason why not I'm likely to waive my hand and change it anyway...
I haven't read the Spelljammer books, but the idea intrigues me, and I'm tempted to just grab it and run with it. Out of curiosity: could you make magical "cannons" that launch fireballs, lightning bolts, acid arrows, and the like, if the mental image of mounting medieval siege weaponry on the ship is just too much?
Meh, I'm not sure why I'm asking, since if there's a good reason why not I'm likely to waive my hand and change it anyway...
No there realy aren't. Check out Heros of Battle for magical ballista. I think that you could easily fit a ship with weapons like that.
Spelljammer takes place on the Prime Material plane, with an adjunct to the phlogiston which exists in the "space" between the crystal spheres which house the alternate Prime Materials.
Actually, in the 2nd edition Spelljammer/Planescape cosmology, there is only one Material plane – the "Prime" (the crystal spheres just float about in the phlogistion, which makes up the Prime Material Plane).
It wasn't until 3rd edition where we got each world having its own cosmology and vaguely connected by the Plane of Shadow.
Are they gone, or do you just wish they were gone?
Let’s just say, for the purpose of the argument that we removed the crystal spheres and the flow from the game, would it still be Spelljammer? Does your hypergate idea mean that the game is still “Swashbuckling Adventure in Space” or has it just crept a little farther from Pirates and a little closer to Star Trek/Wars?
What about weapons, if you remove ballistas and catapults and add in cannons would it still be Spelljammer? (This is of course ignoring the reason cannons weren’t used, because you have already removed the flow and crystal spheres where the gods decree that black powder doesn’t work) In a universe where a thirty foot ling lizard can fly and breathe fire is it so horrible that a catapult works in space?
Making it a stand alone setting, set in “Bralspace” and completely disconnected from any other setting, does that mean you are still playing in a Spelljammer game?
If you were to get rid of gravity planes and air envelopes and just made all ships airtight hulls, would it still be Spelljammer? I don’t think you can buckle much swash inside of a submarine, even if that submarine is in space.
There are a few things that make Spelljammer, well, Spelljammer, and to remove them is to change the setting in drastic ways. I run Spelljammer, I love Spelljammer, but I also love Star Trek and Star Wars. I wouldn’t try to mix them, because they aren’t the same thing. The problem is that people see the “in Space” part of Spelljammer and immediately expect that it is going to be Star Trek/Star Wars/Lost in Space/B5/Ect. That’s not Spelljammer. Spelljammer is not Sci-fi, It’s Fantasy. “It’s Magic and It Knows It’s Magic!” is my favorite quote from the campaign setting.
Actually I like the gravity planes and the air envelopes. The problem the game has is when things leave the air envelope. It's at that point the game sucks.
But you substitute the mundane weapons that shouldn't work with magical weapons that do, like the magical ballista from Heros of Battle, then things go back to making sense.
Spelljamming ships is what makes "Spelljammer" Spelljammer. It's about the ship to ship combat that makes it cool. It's the races that make things cool. It's the worlds that make things cool.
Things that don't make it cool are the things that quickly get tossed to the side, or the things that just don't make sense. A catapult needs gravity to work and needs it to work consistantly. A trebuchet need gravity to work consistantly to. They don't work on a ship is space well because once they leave a ship's gravity well the object should fly in the direction it was heading instead of gravity arcing it into the enemy's ship.
Things that get shunted into what I call "Off Camera" activity are not needed. Many DM's would just gloss over that aspect of the game to get to the next part of the game.
More players just avoided all combat in the "Flow" because they didn't want to handle the risk. They would just try and outrun whoever might be a risk.
Spelljammer will always be tied to other Sci-fi fiction because it deals with space. Making "Space" differant doen't make it cool, it just makes it wierd. "Space" doesn't need to be cool. Survival in "Space", Traveling in "Space", living and adventuring in "Space", fighting in "Space", that's what should be cool.
Spelljammer is deep enough to have its own campaign setting, seperate and excluded from all the other existing campaign settings. Taking some of eberrons ideas (taking majic and its uses to the next logical advancement) and expanding on them even further, spelljammer could easily push into new grounds without ever having to influence or be influenced by current campaign settings.
Space for most purposes is infinite in its potential, so why should spelljammer be restrained as only a meta game for offering transportation from one campaign setting to another. My players have never used spelljammer as such, if the want to play in realms.... we roll up characters to play realms.... if the want to play in eberron... we roll up characters and play eberron. When we play spelljammer.... its too play spelljammer.
My group and I are currently playing a homebrewed 3.5 Spelljammer campaign as a stand alone campaign setting. That is its its own campaign setting; no forgotten reams, no greyhawk, no toril, no eberron, and etc.
Spelljammer is deep enough to have its own campaign setting,
That's a good idea, as the main problem with the Spelljammer line was that most people were just using it as a taxi service to get from Toril to Krynn or what have you, instead of using it as a campaign setting in its own right.
My group and I are currently playing a homebrewed 3.5 Spelljammer campaign as a stand alone campaign setting. That is its its own campaign setting; no forgotten reams, no greyhawk, no toril, no eberron, and etc.
Spelljammer is deep enough to have its own campaign setting, seperate and excluded from all the other existing campaign settings. Taking some of eberrons ideas (taking majic and its uses to the next logical advancement) and expanding on them even further, spelljammer could easily push into new grounds without ever having to influence or be influenced by current campaign settings.
Space for most purposes is infinite in its potential, so why should spelljammer be restrained as only a meta game for offering transportation from one campaign setting to another. My players have never used spelljammer as such, if the want to play in realms.... we roll up characters to play realms.... if the want to play in eberron... we roll up characters and play eberron. When we play spelljammer.... its too play spelljammer.
I agree.
My group and I are currently playing a homebrewed 3.5 Spelljammer campaign as a stand alone campaign setting. That is its its own campaign setting; no forgotten reams, no greyhawk, no toril, no eberron, and etc.
Spelljammer is deep enough to have its own campaign setting, seperate and excluded from all the other existing campaign settings. Taking some of eberrons ideas (taking majic and its uses to the next logical advancement) and expanding on them even further, spelljammer could easily push into new grounds without ever having to influence or be influenced by current campaign settings.
Space for most purposes is infinite in its potential, so why should spelljammer be restrained as only a meta game for offering transportation from one campaign setting to another. My players have never used spelljammer as such, if the want to play in realms.... we roll up characters to play realms.... if the want to play in eberron... we roll up characters and play eberron. When we play spelljammer.... its too play spelljammer.
I agree.
That's a good idea, as the main problem with the Spelljammer line was that most people were just using it as a taxi service to get from Toril to Krynn or what have you, instead of using it as a campaign setting in its own right.
that makes no sense to me... why would anyone just use it to get from campaign setting A to campaign setting B? if you don't enjoy spelljammer for the purposes of using the spelljammer setting, then it doesn't much matter how you get from A to B, just that you do.
certainly, while i noticed they mention something to the effect of spelljammer being useful for crossover campaigns, i never looked at it as such... it always seemed to me that it was really designed to handle adventuring in space, rather than just travelling from krynn to toril, as soon as i had read some of the material.
The ACCELERATOR is a massive device like a sextant, with a barrel, it uses some of the ships propulsion energy to accelerate anything put into it (including yer own hands if not careful...) Awesome since it can fire anything you wish, acid, rocks, alchemists fire etc. Downside is it slows yer ship a bit.
that makes no sense to me... why would anyone just use it to get from campaign setting A to campaign setting B?
I agree that Spelljammer should be used as Spelljammer, not a connective mechanic, but according to market research blah blah, the setting wasn't being utilized as it was intended.
The Astromundi Cluster boxed set tried to remedy this, but to no avail.
Well there is a magical cannon-like weapon in SJ "cannon" if you pardon the pun ;)
The ACCELERATOR is a massive device like a sextant, with a barrel, it uses some of the ships propulsion energy to accelerate anything put into it (including yer own hands if not careful...) Awesome since it can fire anything you wish, acid, rocks, alchemists fire etc. Downside is it slows yer ship a bit.
When reading through my books, one of my players saw that one and immediately said “We need one those for our ship!” I told him to keep reading and after a few more seconds he replied “Ok, so we just make sure that only the NPC crew work it and we’ll be fine.”
Furthermore, Ravenloft is a demi-plane that is tenuously linked with Prime. If I recall, getting in and out is limited to will of the Dark Powers (read DM fiat). There is no wildspace connection. So unless something drastically changes about both Spelljammer and Ravenloft, you can't get there from here. If Shemeska is reading this, I'd love to hear her take. Not to mention, I don't see the Dark Powers allowing "rescues" from wildspace from occurring. They like making people suffer.
You're dead on as far as I am concerned. While there is no reason why a spelljamming vessel would be any harder for the Dark Powers to snare than a seafaring one, it would likewise be equally difficult for either to ever leave. A spelljammer trying to leave Ravenloft vertically would eventually be snared in the mists and forced to land, just like a sailing ship trying to leave horizonally.
Side note: One of the rumors I often heard about Dark Sun was that it was a future Toril, which accounted for its relative isolation. The assumption was drawn from combination of an artifact from the second edition [/i]Book of Artifacts[i] and the fact that there were significant place names associated with both. The one that I remember is the Anauroch.
That's fascinating. I'd never heard that one before.
I do, however, agree that Eberron should remain isolated to keep its flavor and feel. Eberron, by design, doesn't wander in the same uni/multi-verse as other settings, except incidentally (via the transitive planes). I wouldn't be surprised if a variation of the Traveler's curse that affects Xen'drik wouldn't also affect Eberron's crystal sphere making it not worth the trip.
In my opinion, Eberron's isolation is a conceit that only serves to further deepen the rift between Eberron players and non-Eberron players. The whole setting reeks of "we don't want to play in your sandbox." But maybe I'm just sensitive.
I like the Astromundi Cluster, but it is a "Hotel California sphere" (i.e. you can enter, but you can never leave).
Really? Somehow I had missed that! That's ludicrous! It sounds to me like even the setting's designers weren't gung-ho about the phlogiston.The beauty of crystal spheres, is that a DM can decide to avoid using any particular sphere without the continuity of the Spelljammer Campaign Setting collapsing. So if you don't like the Raidant Triangle you can just put the players somewhere else.
You can accomplish this just as easily with vast interstellar distance.
Wizards of the Coast licenced a 3rd party publisher to bring out a 3rd edition version of Ravenloft. They did a reboot that involved dumping the Demiplane of Dread. Septembervirgin may have used that edition of Ravenloft.
Not according to the Arthaus/Sword & Sorcery Ravenloft books I've read. The demiplane is alive and well.
Personally, I prefer Ravenloft to be a transitive setting (that can connect to any other or all other campaign settings).
This is really a topic for a Ravenloft thread, but the idea of Ravenloft being transitive completely defeats the purpose of the setting.
That hasn't stopped Beyond the Moons (the official Spelljammer website) from publishing a Spelljammer/Dark Sun crossover called The Crimson Sphere.
Much to the chagrin of the Burnt World of Athas team. :D
crystal spheres basically serve as a (more or less) impenetrable barrier. you can't teleport through it, you can't break a hole in it, you can't divine/scry through it, etc... it blocks even interplanar effects.
it therefore keeps not just the people, but the outsiders (including deities) from simply reaching out to the other campaign setting. something that just being "really far away" can't do.
as far as ravenloft connecting to anywhere, i think what he means is that it connects to everywhere, and therefore you can wind up there from any campaign setting... it's not attached to the realms or greyhawk specifically, IOW. i don't think he means that it's a place where you can choose to go, or (especially) choose to leave, just that it's got connections to anywhere... connections that are controlled just like the original 2e (or earlier?) setting.
crystal spheres do a much better job of separating campaign settings than "really really far away".
crystal spheres basically serve as a (more or less) impenetrable barrier. you can't teleport through it, you can't break a hole in it, you can't divine/scry through it, etc... it blocks even interplanar effects.
Yes, exactly. It's deus ex machina. It's DM-fiat-made-flesh.
"I knock down the door.":whatsthis "You can't."
"But I rolled a 20.":whatsthis "It doesn't matter."
"My axe is adamantine!":whatsthis "The door remains intact."
:headexplo "Let's see if your face is as lucky."
Either you want a prime-material-exclusive transitive setting or you don't. All crystal spheres do is cripple the core concept of the setting.
it therefore keeps not just the people, but the outsiders (including deities) from simply reaching out to the other campaign setting. something that just being "really far away" can't do.
I disagree pretty completely. I think that alienation from a follower base is the ultimate in barriers, for a diety. That aside, there are better ways to explain why gods are not universal -- ways that, at the very least, don't involve clerics losing some or all of their spells just because they go on an adventure.
Besides which, if I want the gods of Krynn to take an interest in Oerth, there are easier ways to do that than space travel. The planes offer no such barrier. I tend to think that belief systems are discrete for a reason -- trying to set up a follower base on a world where you have none has got to be sort of like muscling in on a Mafia racket. You'd better have a heck of a lot of muscle.
some things were not made to be argued, and no matter how hard you try, it just isn't within your reach. i don't care if you do roll a 20 with your attack roll, you're not hitting the moon from earth with a longbow, for example. is this "bad DMing" because the DM won't let you do it? i would argue that it is not.
similarly, not being able to destroy the crystal spheres is not a bad thing. any more than it is a bad thing that your players aren't going to be able to destroy a mountain using only a dagger (i don't care if your dagger is made of adamantite either, for the record, it's not going to happen). just like "i attempt to split the planar barrier with my axe" is also going to be answered with "no."
planar travel is fine for some things, but you are making it sound way too easy. spelljamming can be done with level 1 characters. plane hopping all over the place? not quite so likely to work, when you don't have any plane-hopping magic (although i admit, i don't know much about planewalker campaign setting, and i understand there's some sort of workaround for this). in fact, i would argue that without the phlogiston and crystal spheres, there wouldn't be anywhere that can't be reached via the planes, and that therefore the existance of crystal spheres and the flow actually makes sense as far as creating a demand for spelljamming in the first place, because it makes a location that you can't just teleport to (or plane shift, gate, etc). because while you may not be able to guide a mule caravan through sigil (not knowing much of it, i'll assume that's reasonable) there's presumably nothing keeping a whole bunch of people with backpacks from accomplishing such an awe-inspiring feat as crossing a city (if there is, then we're back to the "spelljamming is possible at level 1" scenario).
you seem to think that the DM should never be allowed to say no. the way i see it, sometimes, the answer *should* be a plain, simple, "no".
On the contrary -- I believe that the DM's right to say no is absolute and irrefutable, which is precisely why it should not be used like a sledgehammer, but like a scalpel, to excise what is well and truly cancerous.
The crystal spheres are not a "no," they are a "no, because I said so." "No" should always be used in conjunction with a logical explanation, and the spheres defy logic.
some things were not made to be argued, and no matter how hard you try, it just isn't within your reach. i don't care if you do roll a 20 with your attack roll, you're not hitting the moon from earth with a longbow, for example. is this "bad DMing" because the DM won't let you do it? i would argue that it is not.
I don't follow. Longbows have well-established, logical ranges that are distinctly sub-orbital.
similarly, not being able to destroy the crystal spheres is not a bad thing. any more than it is a bad thing that your players aren't going to be able to destroy a mountain using only a dagger (i don't care if your dagger is made of adamantite either, for the record, it's not going to happen). just like "i attempt to split the planar barrier with my axe" is also going to be answered with "no."
Given an infinite amount of time, an individual could most certainly level a mountain into gravel with an adamantine dagger. I don't know why anyone would want to, but it is certainly possible; provided of course that the mountain does not contain an adamantium vein.
And there are weapons that can split planar barriers.
It's immaterial, though -- I never said that the spheres should be destructible. I said that they should not exist at all. That they are indestructible is just one of many reasons why they should not exist. Indestructibility is a truism. Something is indestructible because it has not yet been destroyed. Impassability and impenetrability share the same conceit.
The spheres are a convenient plot device. If I placed an indestructible, impassable, and impenetrable barrier in my PCs' path to obstruct them from performing a task before I wanted them to, they would cry foul, and they would be right to do so. It is an easy way out. It is deus ex machina.
planar travel is fine for some things, but you are making it sound way too easy. spelljamming can be done with level 1 characters. plane hopping all over the place? not quite so likely to work, when you don't have any plane-hopping magic (although i admit, i don't know much about planewalker campaign setting, and i understand there's some sort of workaround for this).
The general wisdom of Planescape is that there are "CR 1" areas of the Nine Hells just like there are CR 1 areas on Faerun. The setting's detractors are unimpressed with this conceit, but personally, I think it makes sense.
I disagree with you, though. Undertaking any long journey as a level 1 character is inherently dangerous, and spelljamming involves some of the longest journeys of all.
in fact, i would argue that without the phlogiston and crystal spheres, there wouldn't be anywhere that can't be reached via the planes, and that therefore the existance of crystal spheres and the flow actually makes sense as far as creating a demand for spelljamming in the first place, because it makes a location that you can't just teleport to (or plane shift, gate, etc).
Everywhere is accessible from the planes, crystal spheres or not. If you take a portal from Krynn to the Outlands and then another portal to Toril, you have effectively bypassed the crystal spheres entrapping both worlds. They do not affect your journey at all. All the spheres do is prevent direct teleportation between worlds -- and I am more inclined to explain that by saying that mages with no understanding of interplanetary distance declared that Greater Teleport has "no range limit." Teleporting across deep space is absurd enough that even the most debased powergamer would have to acknowledge that it would involve some difficulties, at the very least.
because while you may not be able to guide a mule caravan through sigil (not knowing much of it, i'll assume that's reasonable)
There are certainly parts of Sigil through which you could guide a caravan (to the great inconvenience of one's neighbors). But much of the city greatly resembles York's Shambles, or any other medieval city, for that matter. While Sigil is called the City of Doors because you can find a portal there to almost anywhere else, there is no guarantee that the portal you're looking for will be in an accessible spot, or even large enough to accomodate a cart (let alone a person).
there's presumably nothing keeping a whole bunch of people with backpacks from accomplishing such an awe-inspiring feat as crossing a city (if there is, then we're back to the "spelljamming is possible at level 1" scenario).
300 tons is a lot of backpacks. But let me try to clarify my point. My point was that it would not be possible to establish a lucrative trade route between Prime Material worlds through the planes, and men with backpacks do not a trade caravan make. Still, planar travel does have significant drawbacks. The biggest fault of planar travel is that if you do not already have a route planned, you have no way of knowing how long a trip will take (and frequently, even a short planned route can change without warning).
Even a direct Plane Shift is unreliable -- it will move you from one plane to another, but 5 to 500 miles from your intended destination. It could be used to get from Oerth to Eberron (provided you had already been), but you would have no control over either your stopover location or your destination. It would really suck to end up 500 miles out to sea when you intended to visit Stormreach.
Spelljamming, at least, is still governed by the measurable physiomagical laws of time and distance.
my point is that the phlogiston *itself* cannot be reached via planar travel. it is a destination that you can't teleport, plane shift, gate, dimension door, shadow walk, or hop through a dimensional portal to get through. it is beyond the reach of deities, even. it is a place where planar travel will not get you to.
and i still don't see what your problem with crystal spheres is. if the PCs want to get through one, there are plenty of ways... it's just to keep the primes separate, and to keep campaign setting A from having an effect on campaign setting B with it's rules (for example, birthright magic operates completely different from faerunian magic which is based on the weave which is completely different from krynnish magic which is based on the 3 gods of magic, which is completely different from athasian magic which is based on sucking the life out of things around you. 4 different campaign settings with completely different laws of magic. i haven't even mentioned places with different *physical* laws (iirc, hollow world/mystara for example). krynn and birthright have no psionics (explicitly, as i understand it), many other campaign settings do. athas doesn't even actually have gods, and eberron has gods but they don't do anything. we are looking at places with fundamentally different rules of existance. things work completely differently, on completely different principles, in different campaign settings... the crystal spheres provide a convenient boundary that these differing sets of rules cannot cross, therefore preventing cross-contamination of the setting (while still allowing travel between the settings).
I like the ship stat block, don't like the combat movement though. We'll see if Starships of the Galaxy fix the issue or not. If not, I have a pretty nice set of rules that are almost complete that would work great in for all genres.
Cool.
crystal spheres do a much better job of separating campaign settings than "really really far away".
crystal spheres basically serve as a (more or less) impenetrable barrier. you can't teleport through it, you can't break a hole in it, you can't divine/scry through it, etc... it blocks even interplanar effects.
it therefore keeps not just the people, but the outsiders (including deities) from simply reaching out to the other campaign setting. something that just being "really far away" can't do.
as far as ravenloft connecting to anywhere, i think what he means is that it connects to everywhere, and therefore you can wind up there from any campaign setting... it's not attached to the realms or greyhawk specifically, IOW. i don't think he means that it's a place where you can choose to go, or (especially) choose to leave, just that it's got connections to anywhere... connections that are controlled just like the original 2e (or earlier?) setting.
And I hate that sort of metagame concept. All of the canon of two many game worlds just don't work with this.
Dieties are the strongest beings in the game, they can and do move worlds at thier whim.
Death to the crystal spheres.
And I hate that sort of metagame concept. All of the canon of two many game worlds just don't work with this.
Dieties are the strongest beings in the game, they can and do move worlds at thier whim.
Death to the crystal spheres.
Long live crystal spheres!
How does the cannon of “too many game worlds” not work with crystal spheres? Which settings specifically contradict crystal spheres? Which settings have space travel at all? (I think Mystara is about it)
Long live crystal spheres!
How does the cannon of “too many game worlds” not work with crystal spheres? Which settings specifically contradict crystal spheres? Which settings have space travel at all? (I think Mystara is about it)
Dragonlance.
Tykiss stole the world and hid it away from the other gods by removing it from it's solar system.
Greyhawk
Orcus moves a world into a body of space that is no where near a sun or star so it freezes in "Return to the Tomb of Horrors"
There's two examples.
Dragonlance.
Tykiss stole the world and hid it away from the other gods by removing it from it's solar system.
Moved to another crystal sphere.
Greyhawk
Orcus moves a world into a body of space that is no where near a sun or star so it freezes in "Return to the Tomb of Horrors"
Moved to a sunless sphere.
Acear got pwned... ouchness....
Not really. I was just pointing out that those events do not have to contradict Spelljammer.
Not really. I was just pointing out that those events do not have to contradict Spelljammer.
in point of fact, takhisis stealing the world fits *perfectly* with spelljammer... the gods can't find the world. why? they're all powerful, supposedly. it's umpteen gods (let's face it, on this issue the gods of good, evil, and neutrality are all willing to work together) trying to find krynn, and one trying to hide it. yet somehow, Krynn stays hidden from the gods (ultimately, i understand Raistlin tracks it down?)
so, like i was saying, crystal spheres explain this perfectly. it's a barrier that can't be crossed for the gods, and through which no detection spell or ability can pass. it fits the story for krynn to have been moved to a different sphere.
anyhow, going back a ways to some earlier points of yours, you commented that long-distance travel is hazardous, especially for level 1 PCs. in spelljammer, the ship's stats matter more in ship-to-ship combat than the PCs. the hit points are based on the ship, the THAC0 is based on the weapons... 1-2 WPs/NWPs is about as much investment as they should need, and even then it's just a nice extra thing to have, not a requirement.
i certainly favor the chances of the level 1 party in a tradesman vs a 100 ton ship (more or less the biggest out there) much more than i favor the odds of a level 1 party vs an adult dragon (and there's plenty more stuff at higher levels than that).
plus, while it may be a long journey in distance, it may be only a few days in terms of time.
Moved to another crystal sphere.
Moved to a sunless sphere.
Hmm, nope, that's not in the canon. The authors don't mention that at all. Care to try again?
in point of fact, takhisis stealing the world fits *perfectly* with spelljammer... the gods can't find the world. why? they're all powerful, supposedly. it's umpteen gods (let's face it, on this issue the gods of good, evil, and neutrality are all willing to work together) trying to find krynn, and one trying to hide it. yet somehow, Krynn stays hidden from the gods (ultimately, i understand Raistlin tracks it down?)
so, like i was saying, crystal spheres explain this perfectly. it's a barrier that can't be crossed for the gods, and through which no detection spell or ability can pass. it fits the story for krynn to have been moved to a different sphere.
anyhow, going back a ways to some earlier points of yours, you commented that long-distance travel is hazardous, especially for level 1 PCs. in spelljammer, the ship's stats matter more in ship-to-ship combat than the PCs. the hit points are based on the ship, the THAC0 is based on the weapons... 1-2 WPs/NWPs is about as much investment as they should need, and even then it's just a nice extra thing to have, not a requirement.
i certainly favor the chances of the level 1 party in a tradesman vs a 100 ton ship (more or less the biggest out there) much more than i favor the odds of a level 1 party vs an adult dragon (and there's plenty more stuff at higher levels than that).
plus, while it may be a long journey in distance, it may be only a few days in terms of time.
Except dieties aren't supposed to be able to do what you've just described.
The spheres fail again.
Hmm, nope, that's not in the canon. The authors don't mention that at all. Care to try again?
And they don't say it didn't happen that way. What I was pointing out is that just because a module doesn’t explicitly state “this takes place in a universe with crystal spheres” doesn’t mean that the idea should just be thrown out.
We know by now that you hate the idea of crystal spheres in a universe where 30ft long lizards can fly and breathe fire, where some creatures are made out of rock, where people can wave their hand and summon creatures out of thin air and where the dead walk. I know that no matter what I post here you will just say “try again”. You might even use the rolling eyes emoticon. So let’s just agree to disagree, I can have my crystal spheres and you can have your hyperspace.
And they don't say it didn't happen that way. What I was pointing out is that just because a module doesn’t explicitly state “this takes place in a universe with crystal spheres” doesn’t mean that the idea should just be thrown out.
We know by now that you hate the idea of crystal spheres in a universe where 30ft long lizards can fly and breathe fire, where some creatures are made out of rock, where people can wave their hand and summon creatures out of thin air and where the dead walk. I know that no matter what I post here you will just say “try again”. You might even use the rolling eyes emoticon. So let’s just agree to disagree, I can have my crystal spheres and you can have your hyperspace.
Ah the strawman aurguement. Absence of proof is not proof. I would suggest that you at least go and research before you through that up.
And I never said that I want hyperspace, your just putting words in my mouth.
Ah the strawman aurguement. Absence of proof is not proof. I would suggest that you at least go and research before you through that up.
And I never said that I want hyperspace, your just putting words in my mouth.
You are giving just as much absence of proof as they are. Leave off it and stop being inflammatory. Spelljammer is not based on actual physics. It is up the the DM to decide crystal spheres or no crystal spheres. It is a personal preference. You don't like them. They do. Learn to disagree and move on.
You are giving just as much absence of proof as they are. Leave off it and stop being inflammatory. Spelljammer is not based on actual physics. It is up the the DM to decide crystal spheres or no crystal spheres. It is a personal preference. You don't like them. They do. Learn to disagree and move on.
I haven't left of proof, I provided sources. And I'm not being inflamitory. This is a discussion of Spelljammer 4.0. My point has nothing to do with DM preferances. My point has to do with how I would lke the game system revised.
Until it is decided by WOTC that they will move to revive spelljamer one way or the other, there is no point in moving on.
so, like i was saying, crystal spheres explain this perfectly. it's a barrier that can't be crossed for the gods, and through which no detection spell or ability can pass. it fits the story for krynn to have been moved to a different sphere.
...by an evil god? Who, by the same definition, can neither cross nor detect through a crystal sphere?
How does she get outside Krynn's crystal sphere to move it? Or get into the new one?
Um, sorry. No.
...by an evil god? Who, by the same definition, can neither cross nor detect through a crystal sphere?
How does she get outside Krynn's crystal sphere to move it? Or get into the new one?
Um, sorry. No.
presumably via planar travel. i never said the spheres weren't accessible via the planes. it would just take a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time for anyone to find out precisely which crystal sphere takhisis took the world to, because you would have to hop into each and every individual crystal sphere one at a time (and since they'd be random crystal spheres, presumably you'd have to know of their existance first by finding a natural portal or something?) in any case, just because the crystal sphere cannot be crossed by the gods doesn't mean they can't get from one sphere to another.
i suppose if everyone insists on the other way, perhaps you'd care to explain how it is that one weakened goddess managed to avoid the notice of many more non-weakened god/goddesses after stealing the world on which almost the entirety of their worshippers would be found? please, feel free to do so. i'd like to hear it.
as far as the "moved to a different sphere" not being cannon because it doesn't explicitly say so, the point was not that "here is how they did it", the point was that it is entirely possible to happen using the spelljammer setting, and that therefore the fact that it was done does not exclude the spelljammer setting automatically. if a specific, clearly contradictory (to spelljammer) method was mentioned as to how those things happened is given, then you could use *that* to show that spelljammer doesn't fit in with the canon. as it stands, you haven't shown that takhisis *didn't* move the world to another crystal sphere any more than we have shown that she *did* move the world to another crystal sphere.
(though, from what i have been told, the laws of how magic works basically change completely... huh, funny how the magical laws would be totally different in this new place, isn't it? almost like there was some sort of barrier wherein could be found different natural laws, floating in space...)
if a specific, clearly contradictory (to spelljammer) method was mentioned as to how those things happened is given, then you could use *that* to show that spelljammer doesn't fit in with the canon. as it stands, you haven't shown that takhisis *didn't* move the world to another crystal sphere any more than we have shown that she *did* move the world to another crystal sphere.
And once again we come back to the strawman arguement. I suggest that you go ahead and read the Dragonlance books. You are making assumptions that don't exist.
I'm not going to type out the actual text hear because it would be against TOC. But I have provided a method to you to find the information that backs up my point. It's up to you if you want to ignore the information, but it's available to you more than likely at your local library.
if it is indeed specified, and explicitly contradicts spelljammer, then you've got a point (which is *exactly* what i said in that sentence you just quoted). so are you going to actually say anything meaningful, or are you deliberately trying to be vague and unspecific so that we can't have a meaningful discussion?
you keep saying i'm using a strawman arguement, well please, kindly show it to me. i don't have the time to go down to the library and look through an absurdly large number of dragonlance books to find the one specific book that mentions whatever it is you may be talking about (which i assume to be an explanation of how takhisis stole the world, but which you haven't explicitly said) and read the whole thing.
like i said, i'm not using this to prove that the spelljammer-based crystal spheres theory is correct. it is merely to point out that (based on my admittedly incomplete knowledge which you keep slamming, but refusing to complete) there is nothing to prove either way as far as crystal spheres.
so please, enlighten us. contribute something that we can actually discuss without having to go out and read a series of books that probably has well over 100 novels by now. or, alternately, just walk away, and accept the fact that since the gaming police aren't going to break down your door and force you to use crystal spheres no matter what happens with spelljammer, acknowledge that it isn't really that important, and go elsewhere. certainly, the vast majority of the forums (most of whom don't care or dislike spelljammer, presumably, since they don't have enough interest to post here) have no problem leaving it alone. why can't you? none of us have created a thread called "acear's campaign setting is dumb", why is it that you can't extend the same courtesy?
there's nothing in the CoC that prevents you from describing the method she used, just the specific description itself.
if it is indeed specified, and explicitly contradicts spelljammer, then you've got a point (which is *exactly* what i said in that sentence you just quoted). so are you going to actually say anything meaningful, or are you deliberately trying to be vague and unspecific so that we can't have a meaningful discussion?
you keep saying i'm using a strawman arguement, well please, kindly show it to me. i don't have the time to go down to the library and look through an absurdly large number of dragonlance books to find the one specific book that mentions whatever it is you may be talking about (which i assume to be an explanation of how takhisis stole the world, but which you haven't explicitly said) and read the whole thing.
like i said, i'm not using this to prove that the spelljammer-based crystal spheres theory is correct. it is merely to point out that (based on my admittedly incomplete knowledge which you keep slamming, but refusing to complete) there is nothing to prove either way as far as crystal spheres.
so please, enlighten us. contribute something that we can actually discuss without having to go out and read a series of books that probably has well over 100 novels by now. or, alternately, just walk away, and accept the fact that since the gaming police aren't going to break down your door and force you to use crystal spheres no matter what happens with spelljammer, acknowledge that it isn't really that important, and go elsewhere. certainly, the vast majority of the forums (most of whom don't care or dislike spelljammer, presumably, since they don't have enough interest to post here) have no problem leaving it alone. why can't you? none of us have created a thread called "acear's campaign setting is dumb", why is it that you can't extend the same courtesy?
I'm not going to break copyright law.
But here are some links that tell you more about the story.
www.dlnexus.com/features/faqs/common.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takhisis
As for your strawman arguement, maybe this will help you undstand what I mean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
Now here is something I maynot have been clear about.
I like Spelljammer. I have run Spelljammer. But there are things about it that I don't like, and think should be fixed. This board is about running the game in 4e. Since that means that there might be some sort of material in the future about Spelljammer, I would like Spelljammer to fit into other gameworlds more "holisticly"and take thier canon more seriously. I would like space battle given a little more thought as to how gravity works.
So I'm here to point out how the game can be improved.
Now back to the things you have said about me. I have never stated that your campaign setting is dumb, as far as I am concerned, they are a paragon of virture an example of how the game can be played for all time.
There is a Spelljammer board that exists for playing the game within the setting as it was played in its orginal setting. Here it is:
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=294
This board is for talking about playing Spelljammer in 4e and given that there has been major changes to the games cosmology...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a
I feel that I'm justified in presenting a case that these changes be made.
If you don't like that, I'm sorry. Please feel free to ignore me. But since I want Spelljammer back (and improved IMHO) I'm going to post and make my case. I can't make you read or research what other authors have written, if you want to ignore that, that's fine.
and perhaps you don't understand how copyright works. copyright does not prevent you from describing the work in question. it does not prevent you from discussing it, in written format or otherwise. what it does, is prevent you from reproducing the work (or i suppose more correctly, it punishes you for reproducing the work). so, for example, we can freely discuss the ideas of spelljammer, for example, in spite of it being a copyrighted work. we can even use words like Ship's Rating, tactical speed, Spelljamming helm, the Rock of Bral, etc, even though they are in a copyrighted work. what we could not do, is copy and paste the text of the spelljammer books here in their entirety (brief quotes are actually permitted under certain circumstances and provided you give a reference, as i recall, but that's not the point.)
so, for example, even if there was no d20 SRD, or the OGL, i could still talk about my character's AC, BAB, etc, i just couldn't quote exactly those words [edit] or rather, their definitions [/edit] as taken from the rulebooks, generally speaking.
so you can go right ahead and say "takhisis stole the world by doing as long as you don't directly quote any copyrighted works (in whole or in part)... that is, if you say it in your own words, it is not a violation of copyright.
now then, on to your next point: you are saying i have set up a straw man. i understand what a straw man is in general, i'm asking what specific point you feel was where the straw man was set up. when did we misrepresent your words? when did we attribute anything to you and demonstrate it to be wrong? evidently, you see it really clearly, but i don't. if you would give a specific question, i would be able to give a specific answer, so please tell me where you feel your words have been misrepresented.
unless you're talking about how we (or at least i) assumed you didn't like spelljammer, in which case i can't understand how that's pertinent to the discussion about crystal spheres at all. though for the record, for someone who likes spelljammer, there seems to be an awful lot about it that you don't like... (you've already mentioned crystal spheres, phlogiston, and SJ gravity... out of curiosity, what *do* you like about spelljammer? perhaps you would be better served by stealing from the hollow world/mystara setting's flying ship rules :D )
neither of those links you have provided give any clarification whatsoever on the subject of takhisis stealing the world, as far as i can tell. the only mention i found of it was one that said something to the effect that she had stolen it from the normal place in the universe (which, if you assume crystal spheres, could still fit). i admit it doesn't prove that there *are* crystal spheres, either, but so what? it doesn't prove that there is any connection whatsoever between FR and DL either, but that doesn't mean there isn't one (both planescape and spelljammer would say that there is one, in fact)
and perhaps you don't understand how copyright works. copyright does not prevent you from describing the work in question. it does not prevent you from discussing it, in written format or otherwise. what it does, is prevent you from reproducing the work (or i suppose more correctly, it punishes you for reproducing the work). so, for example, we can freely discuss the ideas of spelljammer, for example, in spite of it being a copyrighted work. we can even use words like Ship's Rating, tactical speed, Spelljamming helm, the Rock of Bral, etc, even though they are in a copyrighted work. what we could not do, is copy and paste the text of the spelljammer books here in their entirety (brief quotes are actually permitted under certain circumstances and provided you give a reference, as i recall, but that's not the point.)
so, for example, even if there was no d20 SRD, or the OGL, i could still talk about my character's AC, BAB, etc, i just couldn't quote exactly those words [edit] or rather, their definitions [/edit] as taken from the rulebooks, generally speaking.
so you can go right ahead and say "takhisis stole the world by doing as long as you don't directly quote any copyrighted works (in whole or in part)... that is, if you say it in your own words, it is not a violation of copyright.
now then, on to your next point: you are saying i have set up a straw man. i understand what a straw man is in general, i'm asking what specific point you feel was where the straw man was set up. when did we misrepresent your words? when did we attribute anything to you and demonstrate it to be wrong? evidently, you see it really clearly, but i don't. if you would give a specific question, i would be able to give a specific answer, so please tell me where you feel your words have been misrepresented.
unless you're talking about how we (or at least i) assumed you didn't like spelljammer, in which case i can't understand how that's pertinent to the discussion about crystal spheres at all. though for the record, for someone who likes spelljammer, there seems to be an awful lot about it that you don't like... (you've already mentioned crystal spheres, phlogiston, and SJ gravity... out of curiosity, what *do* you like about spelljammer? perhaps you would be better served by stealing from the hollow world/mystara setting's flying ship rules :D )
Asking someone to prove something that doesn't exist, is offering a strawman arguement. You asked me to prove that "Takhisis didn't move the world of Dragonlance into a differant sphere."
That can't be proved because it isn't written. All we can do is offer of evidence that is written.
So lets talk about what we do know.
It is written that Takhisis moved the planet to another part of the universe. That is in the link that I provided you.
"A crystal sphere (also known as a crystal shell) is a gigantic spherical shell which contains an entire planetary system. Each sphere varies in size but typically they are twice the diameter of the orbit of the planet that is furthest from the sun or planet at the centre of the sphere (the system's primary)."
The above quote is a Wikipedia quote from this page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer#Crystal_Spheres
Each sphere is a solar system. Moving the planet to another plane would make another god aware of the location of Krynn, there for she must move the planet through space to a differant part of the universe.
All the other planes are considered infinate self contained universes. Hence the word used since 1e "Multiverse".
So I have found evidence that refutes the 2e Spelljammer Crystal Sphere concept. Once again I'm dealing in written proof. If you can provide some written proof go ahead.
As for copyright, I never take advice on legal matters on messageboards. I'd advise anyone else to do the same.
and in any case, i acknowledged that the link says takhisis moved the world through the universe. that doesn't tell us anything about *how* she did it. that doesn't prove anything either way.
and my point was never that the spelljammer explanation was proven by the whole "moving the world" thing, it was that it isn't disproved by it, and that there is nothing "against canon" about the possibility that takhisis hid the world in another sphere. there is no straw man there, because my argument is not that takhisis *must* have moved the sphere elsewhere, but rather that it could fit, and that it can't be proven either way with the limited information we have. i never said that a lack of proving that she didn't move the world to another sphere proves that she did move it. i merely pointed out that it isn't a valid point as far as proving that crystal spheres *don't* exist. it certainly doesn't prove they do (spelljammer would be the reference i would use to prove they do exist, for the record).
in other words, you have said that takhisis moving the world proves that crystal spheres don't exist. my point is that takhisis moving the world proves nothing either way, unless it provides an explicit method of moving the world which directly contradicts the notion of a crystal sphere. someone who has teleported could be said to have "moved" and yet they didn't travel anywhere on the prime, they transported themselves entirely via another plane (the astral, iirc). so sure, takhisis "moved" the world to another place and hid it. she didn't necessarily move it through the prime material, but then again, neither did she necessarily move it through another plane... neither of us can really use that to prove our side, because it could be explained either way. if we assume crystal spheres, we simply assume that she moved it through the planes. just as reasonable as assuming she moved it through space.
therefore, it is not reasonable to say that crystal spheres cannot exist just because takhisis moved the world to someplace else, unless you can demonstrate specifically what that method is, and you can demonstrate that the method could not have been done if crystal spheres existed.
that's not proof at all. why does it have to be that moving through another plane instantly alerts all the other gods any more than moving through space?
and in any case, i acknowledged that the link says takhisis moved the world through the universe. that doesn't tell us anything about *how* she did it. that doesn't prove anything either way.
and my point was never that the spelljammer explanation was proven by the whole "moving the world" thing, it was that it isn't disproved by it, and that there is nothing "against canon" about the possibility that takhisis hid the world in another sphere. there is no straw man there, because my argument is not that takhisis *must* have moved the sphere elsewhere, but rather that it could fit, and that it can't be proven either way with the limited information we have. i never said that a lack of proving that she didn't move the world to another sphere proves that she did move it. i merely pointed out that it isn't a valid point as far as proving that crystal spheres *don't* exist. it certainly doesn't prove they do (spelljammer would be the reference i would use to prove they do exist, for the record).
in other words, you have said that takhisis moving the world proves that crystal spheres don't exist. my point is that takhisis moving the world proves nothing either way, unless it provides an explicit method of moving the world which directly contradicts the notion of a crystal sphere. someone who has teleported could be said to have "moved" and yet they didn't travel anywhere on the prime, they transported themselves entirely via another plane (the astral, iirc). so sure, takhisis "moved" the world to another place and hid it. she didn't necessarily move it through the prime material, but then again, neither did she necessarily move it through another plane... neither of us can really use that to prove our side, because it could be explained either way. if we assume crystal spheres, we simply assume that she moved it through the planes. just as reasonable as assuming she moved it through space.
therefore, it is not reasonable to say that crystal spheres cannot exist just because takhisis moved the world to someplace else, unless you can demonstrate specifically what that method is, and you can demonstrate that the method could not have been done if crystal spheres existed.
It does prove it. I have the links that I have provided. You haven't provided anything in your defense. Please provide anything that backs your point. Your just using strawman arguements again. Provide any evidence that Takhisis does anything to get around the crystal sphere around Krynn. I want writen word. Find me any bit of evidence. Anything.
There is nothing about crystal spheres in anything that was created for Dragonlance since 3e came out. If they wanted to have Crystal Spheres they would have mentioned them. So if they exist prove it.
I'm not going to prove something doesn't exist. Prove that your point exists.
It does prove it. I have the links that I have provided. You haven't provided anything in your defense. Please provide anything that backs your point. Your just using strawman arguements again. Provide any evidence that Takhisis does anything to get around the crystal sphere around Krynn. I want writen word. Find me any bit of evidence. Anything.
There is nothing about crystal spheres in anything that was created for Dragonlance since 3e came out. If they wanted to have Crystal Spheres they would have mentioned them. So if they exist prove it.
I'm not going to prove something doesn't exist. Prove that your point exists.
my point is that neither of us has proof either way. i have provided means by which it could have been done. you have not proven that said means are impossible, and therefore it is still a possibility. i don't have to prove that it IS correct, because that's not what i'm saying. i'm saying it COULD be correct.
takhisis moving the world to another place is not something for which mechanics have been provided, i am sure, nor do i consider it likely they will ever be provided. because the mechanics aren't important. the entire event was essentially DM handwave-powered. there isn't any real explanation given, so far as i can tell, and a lack of information cannot be used to prove anything. we can both submit theories of how she did it, and due to a complete and utter lack of information on how she did it, neither of us can prove anything. you haven't provided proof of anything at all, except that she moved the world from one place to another... which fits *exactly* what both of us are saying. i'm saying she moved it through the planes to a different point in space, you're saying she moved it through space, but we're both saying she moved it, and the only point of that which can be proved by the information you're providing is that she moved it. which isn't a point of contention even. you're proving the wrong fact. the lack of mentioned interaction with a crystal sphere does not prove a lack of a crystal sphere, particularly in a story where the crystal sphere would not be a significant part. dragonlance readers don't need to know how krynn got from point A to point B, they just need to know that it did. if they ever need it to move again, they can just use the exact same method of moving it: GM fiat.
and if we want to bring the novels into this, i should point out that novels are a terrible way to prove anything as canon, especially in a shared universe. if you want, however, i understand that beyond the moons (the first book in the cloakmaster cycle, which is the only spelljammer series of novels i am aware of) which starts on Krynn assumes a crystal sphere is present. but you know what? depending on which dragonlance novels you read, the same stories happened several different ways. this is what happens in a shared universe... authors contradict one another. heck, i can recall at least a couple of stories relating to what is on the moons of krynn, and i recall reading krynnspace and thinking "huh, their statements about what is on the moons doesn't match the novels at all".
if you want to show that there is no crystal sphere, then using the common method we go to the primary source. the primary source for krynnspace has not been updated since the second edition krynnspace supplement, so we're stuck assuming that, per the second edition krynnspace supplement, there *is* a crystal sphere. naturally, 3.x dragonlance products are silent on the issue because for them to say anything about krynnspace (or, more to the point, crystal spheres) *would* be a violation of copyright... since they didn't have the rights to spelljammer, that is. (and while they could potentially come up with their own version of what is beyond the planet's atmosphere and make it different from spelljammer, since that isn't covered by copyright, i rather doubt they went to an awful lot of effort on that) the only primary source we have says that krynnspace has a crystal sphere, so that's the primary source we have to stick with. there is no other source of information on the subject.
what you are saying is akin to declaring "i went from Washington, D.C. to London, England" being proof that there are no barriers of any sort between those two cities. which is absolutely ridiculous. just because i didn't mention that i went over an ocean or how i went over the ocean can't be used to prove that there is no ocean.
Jaid: “You’re not saying anything new and you’re not listening to me! Hey! I’m talking to you!”
Boy, this argument has become nothing more than an exercise in asinine logic. Time to drop it and start talking about something else.
just one thing, you misssed my point about locations being unreachable via the planes.
my point is that the phlogiston *itself* cannot be reached via planar travel. it is a destination that you can't teleport, plane shift, gate, dimension door, shadow walk, or hop through a dimensional portal to get through. it is beyond the reach of deities, even. it is a place where planar travel will not get you to.
Honestly, my biggest problem with the phlogiston is that I don't know why anyone would want to travel there. I don't know about you guys, but I am pretty grateful that there is not an explosive percentage of oxygen in our atmosphere. That would be unfortunate. The core of my issue with the crystal spheres and the phlogiston is just my opinion that they are lame ideas, borrowed from a failed Earth cosmology. It was a stupid idea even for the time in which it was posited, and as soon as people with even a rudimentary grasp of science looked at it they knew why. It's right up there with the Ancient Greek notion of seeing through invisible eye-tentacles. I was doing better when I was in middle school. I expect better from published material. I simply find the concept of crystal spheres so large that they would crush under their own gravity and vast expanses of space filled with a flammable gas FOR NO APPARENT REASON to be ludicrous in the extreme.
and i still don't see what your problem with crystal spheres is. if the PCs want to get through one, there are plenty of ways...
[snip]
Well, that's exactly my point. The spheres are a metagame construct, designed to keep authors happy. I prefer to use a homebrew solution that explains the in-game effect without being heavy-handed. For me, it is a matter of inverting Occam's Razor. It is possible to come up with a simple and elegant solution for the problem of magical and divine law not propagating between worlds without invoking silly concepts like impossibly huge crystal spheres and vast expanses of explosive rainbow-colored gas. So why invoke them?
in point of fact, takhisis stealing the world fits *perfectly* with spelljammer... the gods can't find the world. why? they're all powerful, supposedly. it's umpteen gods (let's face it, on this issue the gods of good, evil, and neutrality are all willing to work together) trying to find krynn, and one trying to hide it. yet somehow, Krynn stays hidden from the gods (ultimately, i understand Raistlin tracks it down?)
so, like i was saying, crystal spheres explain this perfectly. it's a barrier that can't be crossed for the gods, and through which no detection spell or ability can pass. it fits the story for krynn to have been moved to a different sphere.
So how does Takhisis, being a god, hide the world in another crystal sphere in the first place? If she can move between spheres via planar link, what is the purpose of the phlogiston barrier in the first place? You are making our arguments for us. The spheres and phlogiston serve no useful purpose by your own admission. They are surmountable, and easily enough for a god to move an entire planet around them.
anyhow, going back a ways to some earlier points of yours, you commented that long-distance travel is hazardous, especially for level 1 PCs. in spelljammer, the ship's stats matter more in ship-to-ship combat than the PCs. the hit points are based on the ship, the THAC0 is based on the weapons... 1-2 WPs/NWPs is about as much investment as they should need, and even then it's just a nice extra thing to have, not a requirement.
That works out great until you are boarded. By mind flayers. Or beholders. Or neogi. All of which would tear the living excrement out of a party of first level heroes. And yes, they will catch you, and they will board you. They are capable slavers -- the neogi and the illithid, if not the beholders. Capturing 1st-level adventurers is what they do.
plus, while it may be a long journey in distance, it may be only a few days in terms of time.
Through an environment so unfriendly that it is actually, literally explosive.
And I never said that I want hyperspace, your just putting words in my mouth.
Yeah, no one has mentioned hyperspace. In all honesty, as crap as the idea is, warp technology makes for a better analogy to magical interstellar travel than hyperspace. A magical warp bubble altering local physics is much more in line with the Spelljammer concept (air envelopes, gravity planes, etc.) than hyperspace. "Hyperspace" would just be the planar solution -- jumping the ship into the Astral, where it can move at the speed of thought.
Of course, that's an equally awesome idea, come to think of it.
i suppose if everyone insists on the other way, perhaps you'd care to explain how it is that one weakened goddess managed to avoid the notice of many more non-weakened god/goddesses after stealing the world on which almost the entirety of their worshippers would be found? please, feel free to do so. i'd like to hear it.
You want my honest opinion? I think it was an ill-thought-out plot twist. Takhisis should never have been able to do that in the first place. The very situation is unbelievable, precisely for the reasons you have put forth. No matter the cosmological circumstances, it should have been exactly as difficult (if not significantly more difficult) for Takhisis to move the planet than for the other gods to find it, which means that hiding the planet should have been impossible no matter where it went.
To answer the other part of your question, however, a god without followers is a rock in the Astral. Planescape canon shows clearly that gods are heavily dependent on their followers. I personally operate under the assumption that this extends to influence on the Prime Material. Space is virtually empty of life, let alone sentient life, and gods cannot operate where there are not minds and souls who believe in them.
(though, from what i have been told, the laws of how magic works basically change completely... huh, funny how the magical laws would be totally different in this new place, isn't it? almost like there was some sort of barrier wherein could be found different natural laws, floating in space...)
The existence of such a barrier, as I have said numerous times, is unnecessary to that effect. To use an analogy, your position is like saying, "I didn't catch the flu because I take my vitamins." It's true that there is a strong correlation between taking your vitamins and not catching the flu. But you not getting sick is not proof of your vitamins' effectiveness as a barrier. You may just have gotten lucky. Or perhaps you'd already caught the strain of flu that is going around, and developed an immunity to it. Or perhaps the gods themselves decided that you getting the flu did not suit their grand plans.
My point is that space is space, and interrupting it with Swarovski and pride-propane is not the first thing I would come up with to explain why magic works differently in different parts of it. Our own universe is riddled with phenomena we cannot explain with the laws of physics that operate flawlessly on Earth itself. No one suggests that there is a magical wall between us and those places in the galaxy where these oddities occur, and rightly so. The universe is just a mysterious place.
my point is that neither of us has proof either way. i have provided means by which it could have been done. you have not proven that said means are impossible, and therefore it is still a possibility. i don't have to prove that it IS correct, because that's not what i'm saying. i'm saying it COULD be correct..
I do have proof and I have posted it. You have only stated your opinion and nothing to back it up. All you need to do is do some reading and post anything that backs up you point. It's a simple form of debate.
takhisis moving the world to another place is not something for which mechanics have been provided, i am sure, nor do i consider it likely they will ever be provided. because the mechanics aren't important. the entire event was essentially DM handwave-powered. there isn't any real explanation given, so far as i can tell, and a lack of information cannot be used to prove anything. we can both submit theories of how she did it, and due to a complete and utter lack of information on how she did it, neither of us can prove anything. you haven't provided proof of anything at all, except that she moved the world from one place to another... which fits *exactly* what both of us are saying. i'm saying she moved it through the planes to a different point in space, you're saying she moved it through space, but we're both saying she moved it, and the only point of that which can be proved by the information you're providing is that she moved it. which isn't a point of contention even. you're proving the wrong fact. the lack of mentioned interaction with a crystal sphere does not prove a lack of a crystal sphere, particularly in a story where the crystal sphere would not be a significant part. dragonlance readers don't need to know how krynn got from point A to point B, they just need to know that it did. if they ever need it to move again, they can just use the exact same method of moving it: GM fiat..
Any evidence that would state Takhisis moved the planet to another sphere would be evidence that would make your opinion a proveable point. Since you don't have that, it is indefensable.
and if we want to bring the novels into this, i should point out that novels are a terrible way to prove anything as canon, especially in a shared universe. if you want, however, i understand that beyond the moons (the first book in the cloakmaster cycle, which is the only spelljammer series of novels i am aware of) which starts on Krynn assumes a crystal sphere is present. but you know what? depending on which dragonlance novels you read, the same stories happened several different ways. this is what happens in a shared universe... authors contradict one another. heck, i can recall at least a couple of stories relating to what is on the moons of krynn, and i recall reading krynnspace and thinking "huh, their statements about what is on the moons doesn't match the novels at all"..
Novels are a fantastic method of establishing canon. WOTC has made a point of stating that all the Forgotten Realm's and Eberron novels are indeed canon. And as far as the Krynnspace book being out of compliance to the canon of Dragonlance goes to show how bad things can get when one setting impinges on another. It is far better that the writers follow the canon set down by the creators of the setting rather than just make it up and cause confusion.
if you want to show that there is no crystal sphere, then using the common method we go to the primary source. the primary source for krynnspace has not been updated since the second edition krynnspace supplement, so we're stuck assuming that, per the second edition krynnspace supplement, there *is* a crystal sphere. naturally, 3.x dragonlance products are silent on the issue because for them to say anything about krynnspace (or, more to the point, crystal spheres) *would* be a violation of copyright... since they didn't have the rights to spelljammer, that is. (and while they could potentially come up with their own version of what is beyond the planet's atmosphere and make it different from spelljammer, since that isn't covered by copyright, i rather doubt they went to an awful lot of effort on that) the only primary source we have says that krynnspace has a crystal sphere, so that's the primary source we have to stick with. there is no other source of information on the subject.
The primary source for Dragonlance is Margrette Weiss and Tracy Hickman. They have never written about Crystal Spheres and I'm sure if asked would never acknoledge them. Since they publish thier books under WOTC, I know that they have access to WOTC IP. Otherwise they wouldn't write anymore books or create and animated movie based on thier first book.
what you are saying is akin to declaring "i went from Washington, D.C. to London, England" being proof that there are no barriers of any sort between those two cities. which is absolutely ridiculous. just because i didn't mention that i went over an ocean or how i went over the ocean can't be used to prove that there is no ocean.
I have no idea of what your saying here. Since I have a common knowledge of a travel to and from Washington DC to London, England of course I could understand your point. But there are a things that can be used as evidence to back your statement.
If I ask you how you got there, you could reply "I flew" or "I sailed". Those are provable things. You could produce a ticket, or a stamp on your passport. You might produce a picture infront of landmark.
But what you are doing is simply restating your opinion. If you want to stick to your opinion, that's fine. But I see no evidence to support your point.
So after writing this I would like to move forward.
In my honest opinion, if WOTC would like to produce a 4e Spelljammer series, I would like the following features changed.
1. I would like to see the cosmology of the game brought inline with the current proposed cosmology and have phlogiston and crystal shells removed from the game. (Perhaps some features could be intergrates such as a flow that allows spelljamming ships to move quickly from one star system to another, much like the flow from the Phlogiston.)
2) I would like some more of the basic concepts of gravity applied to Spelljamming combat. I do realize that this is a fantasy game. But mundane catapults should work like real world catapults. I will except that magic things work work magically but players should be able to expect that natrual laws of physics apply when things are "normal", "average" or "typical".
3) I would like that any work written for Spelljammer respects and doesn't contradict the standing canon for a given campaign world. (Example: Gunpowder doesn't work in Greyhawk but does in Forgotten Realms, and will work in Eberron but is not commonly used because if it's in D&D it's in Eberron.) If something is to change a game world that relates to Spelljammer, please let it happen in a publication of that supports that setting and then use it in Spelljammer.
And the optional 4) Please consider combining some Planescape concepts to Spelljammer. I would like to see what it would be like to have a Spelljamer in the Feywild.
These are my points. If you wish you can you can discuss thier merits or ignore them. It's up to you.
Acer: “You aren’t saying anything I want to hear so it’s a strawman argument! Na, na, na, na, na, I’m not listening!”
Jaid: “You’re not saying anything new and you’re not listening to me! Hey! I’m talking to you!”
Boy, this argument has become nothing more than an exercise in asinine logic. Time to drop it and start talking about something else.
You know, I actually respect Jaid. There is nothing wrong with standing behind what you believe is right. If you actually took the time to read and understand what we are both trying to say, you might understand that.
and if margaret weiss and tracy hickman have nothing in particular to say about crystal spheres one way or another, then all we have is a lack of proof about their opinion relating to crystal spheres.
in any event, i'm not particularly interested in spending any more time on this subject... my point is simply that there is no proof in either direction, or at least not from what has been provided. as such, i'm just gonna leave the whole subject of crystal shells behind (sorry nemo, you left for too long and i've already spent as much time as i care to on the subject). i suppose we'll all just have to agree to disagree (though with nemo i just disagree as far as whether or not crystal spheres should stay... whereas with acear i disagree that any real proof has been given about the subject of crystal spheres not fitting).
i will agree with acear on one thing, though: 4e spelljammer products should agree with the novels as much as possible (in fact, i would really like it in general if the novels agree with the rules as much as possible just on general principle, rather than just running roughshod over the basic rules of the worlds we play in) and where campaign settings overlap, the flavour of *both* should be preserved as well as possible (for example, many people feel that krynnspace does not feel anything like krynn at all... which i certainly agree is a valid gripe).
I have problems working out the intrinsic problems of "Grubbian" dual plane gravity, sigh, think about stairs, ack :D
But I don't have a problem with gravity *not working unlike our own Universe's*. I just ponder how you'd make ship's useable etc with that difference.
Not the same thing as having a problem with the existance of bizarre gravity.
Fantasy is NOT Sci-fi! End of story.
IF DM's want Solar sytems etc like ours, fine, their game and with the many settings of D&D, it does make sense...places do not *have* to work all the same way, and the same with the Planes. But spelljammers are *magical* vessels absolutely dern well NOT "sci-fi"
It's a FANTASY game. If you can't handle the Crystal Sphere concept, go play Star Trek then! ;)
I have problems working out the intrinsic problems of "Grubbian" dual plane gravity, sigh, think about stairs, ack :D
But I don't have a problem with gravity *not working unlike our own Universe's*. I just ponder how you'd make ship's useable etc with that difference.
Not the same thing as having a problem with the existance of bizarre gravity.
Fantasy is NOT Sci-fi! End of story.
IF DM's want Solar sytems etc like ours, fine, their game and with the many settings of D&D, it does make sense...places do not *have* to work all the same way, and the same with the Planes. But spelljammers are *magical* vessels absolutely dern well NOT "sci-fi"
Maybe I can clear this up although I'm not sure this is adressed to me. The ships are magical, that I can understand and I have no problem with. The catapults are are what I have a problem with. Non magical catapults that fire from a gravity field and have thier "ammo" leave the gravity field, then without any explination arc in a gravity free environment, and then enter a new gravity field and then act normally.
Should a person fall overboard, he will reach the gravity plane and slowly float away from the ship until he reaches spaceand then he floats away as per normal.
There is a lack of consistancy with they way zero g works in the game. If you stated that magical catipults handle the attacks just as normal catapults, that's fine, but that's a mechanic that should be put into the game.
Actually let me be even more clear and use more some more terminology from "Heroes of Battle". Catpults like the "mangonel" or the "scorpion" should be avoided since it fires in an arc. However catapults like the ballista which can fire without need of an arc are perfect for Spelljammer and fit well with the fantasy framework.
Cannons work well too, in certain settings.
Also from Heroes of Battle is the lightning and scorching ballista. Two great deck guns for any Spelljamming ship.
as such, i'm just gonna leave the whole subject of crystal shells behind (sorry nemo, you left for too long and i've already spent as much time as i care to on the subject). i suppose we'll all just have to agree to disagree (though with nemo i just disagree as far as whether or not crystal spheres should stay... whereas with acear i disagree that any real proof has been given about the subject of crystal spheres not fitting).
That's cool. I have absolutely no problem with winning an argument by default.
I've given some thought to setting authors' attitudes toward the crystal spheres, and I think it is pretty clear that it must have been a contentious issue. Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk adopted spelljamming pretty readily, but it is true that there is no published Dragonlance product that mentions wildspace. I'm not sure if there are Dark Sun products that mention wildspace, but I do know that the Dark Sun design team was adamant enough about Athas' isolation that published Spelljammer products refer to Athas as being beyond the reach of spelljammers.
However, while Dragonlance remains mum about spelljamming, Spelljammer actually contains a number of elements that originated on Krynn. The main character of the Spelljammer Cloakmaster Cycle novels is Krynnish. The majority of spacefaring gnomes are tinker gnomes, originally from Mount Nevermind. There is a published setting expansion for Spelljammer detailing Krynn and the other contents of its crystal sphere.
It is worth noting that there is no such official expansion for Dark Sun. Given that there was an option for exclusion, and Krynn was specifically and particularly included, it therefore seems reasonable to suggest that Krynn does have a crystal sphere, according to AD&D2 canon, and that it is frequented by spelljammers, even if natives of Krynn are largely unaware of their comings and goings.
Bringing Planescape into the mix, it is clear that in AD&D2, at least, all of the Prime Material campaign worlds existed in the same multiversal reality. A location for Takhisis' "Abyss" is given as separate from the planar Abyss, but rather in the lawful evil planes. Even Athas, despite its lack of deities, has a presence on the planes in the form of a community of Athasian halflings in Sigil. The closed planar structure of Athas is defined as a barrier between that world and the true outer planes, to which it was once linked.
In light of this common AD&D2 reality, it seems reasonable to suggest a second point -- that if most Prime Material worlds exist within a crystal sphere, it is likely that all Prime Material worlds exist within crystal spheres.
And that is the crux of my case, really. There is proof that Krynn is enclosed in a crystal sphere in the AD&D2 continuity -- but all of the proof comes from non-Dragonlance sources. Admittedly, this makes the evidence appear circumstantial, at best, but I would say this:
If you use Spelljammer and Planescape in your Dragonlance campaign, then the proof I have provided is just as valid as any other fact stated in those transitive settings' products. If you do not use the transitive settings in your Dragonlance game, then it is a moot point. If you do not use Spelljammer, your player-characters will never come into contact with the crystal sphere. If you do not use Planescape, they will never stumble upon a portal from the wrong Abyss.
It's clear, in my opinion, that the AD&D2 settings' authors paid little if any attention to settings beyond their own when writing material; but it is also clear that the settings' publisher, TSR, had every intention of creating a complete transitive continuity. Even Dark Sun, which the authors took pains to sever from the rest of AD&D2, is still mentioned in these transitive settings, if only to say, "You can't get there from here."
How does all of this affect Takhisis' little planet-moving job? It doesn't. Whether there is a Krynnspace or not, Takhisis moved Krynn to another solar system. The gods found it again after much searching. This is an incredibly silly plot device, particularly when you consider that Krynn's relationship with astronomy is tenuous enough for it to have stars that vanish and reappear for the benefit and detriment of its groundling populace, but that notwithstanding, the existence of a crystal sphere does not matter one iota. Either the gods searched deep space until they found where Takhisis had moved Krynn, or they searched crystal spheres via planar links until they found the one where Takhisis had secreted the planet. Either way, the end result is the same.
Now, one thing is true -- if you use Spelljammer with Dragonlance but not Planescape... well, then you have a problem. I don't see how the gods could have found Krynn again. But then, I don't see how Takhisis could have moved the planet in the first place, so chances are that this is not the ideal conformation of continuity.
i will agree with acear on one thing, though: 4e spelljammer products should agree with the novels as much as possible (in fact, i would really like it in general if the novels agree with the rules as much as possible just on general principle, rather than just running roughshod over the basic rules of the worlds we play in) and where campaign settings overlap, the flavour of *both* should be preserved as well as possible (for example, many people feel that krynnspace does not feel anything like krynn at all... which i certainly agree is a valid gripe).
I don't think you have anything to worry about. I think the days of the transitive setting are over. There might be a Spelljammer 4 and Planescape 4, but if there are, I would expect crossover material to be at an absolute minimum. It's clearly not the direction in which the design team is taking D&D4. Individual world, individual cosmology, individual reality.
It's a FANTASY game. If you can't handle the Crystal Sphere concept, go play Star Trek then! ;)
By this logic I could write a novel in pencil on looseleaf and expect Borders to shelve it just because I wrote FANTASY on the cover in big block letters. Imaginary does not equate to low quality.
I have problems working out the intrinsic problems of "Grubbian" dual plane gravity, sigh, think about stairs, ack :D
But I don't have a problem with gravity *not working unlike our own Universe's*. I just ponder how you'd make ship's useable etc with that difference.
I've never understood why a system is needed. Gravity just pulls down. Dual-plane gravity is just needless complexity. These ships fly at interplanetary speeds through an airless void without asphyxiating their crew by virtue of a wizard sitting on a funny chair. Physics went out the window as soon as you reached escape velocity in a wooden boat.
Spelljammers armed with catapults was just ill-thought-out.
Not the same thing as having a problem with the existance of bizarre gravity. Fantasy is NOT Sci-fi! End of story.
The only difference between fantasy and science fiction is that fantasy says that impossible things happen because of magic, and science fiction attempts to explain them with a level of success dependent on the "hardness" of the sci-fi. The dual-plane gravity system is an attempt to apply physical rules to a situation that already does not abide by natural law. It might be "soft," but if that isn't science fiction, I don't know what is.
You know, I actually respect Jaid. There is nothing wrong with standing behind what you believe is right. If you actually took the time to read and understand what we are both trying to say, you might understand that.
I have read all of the posts on this thread Acear, and as you and Jaid continue to harangue one and another about this topic, you’ll find that each of you have devolved into the mock conversation I posted earlier.
As for standing behind what you believe; such sanctimonious comments should be used for topics that actually require a true commitment - you know, like war, taxation, and the right to privacy - not on inane topics that matter to no one, not even the people arguing about them.
I have read all of the posts on this thread Acear, and as you and Jaid continue to harangue one and another about this topic, you’ll find that each of you have devolved into the mock conversation I posted earlier.
As for standing behind what you believe; such sanctimonious comments should be used for topics that actually require a true commitment - you know, like war, taxation, and the right to privacy - not on inane topics that matter to no one, not even the people arguing about them.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that it mattered to Jaid, Nemo and myself and maybe a few others.
If you feel you have something to offer, please do. But don't characterize us. It's off topic and unwanted.
although this still doesn't explain why you can't shoot a catapult at a close-up target, it does open up the possibility that when you fire a catapult in wildspace, you are not hurling the boulder in the usual fashion, but rather directly at the target (by releasing the boulder at a different point in the catapult's swing, that is).
that being said, i prefer the assumption that SJ catapults are actually just ballistas that throw rocks (i would also remove the minimum range of the catapult for the same reason) =P but that's just my personal house rule ;)
just a side note, i've brought up the catapult issue in the spelljammer forums before, and it has been pointed out to me that nowhere does it say the catapults work in wildspace the same as they do on a planet (in fact, iirc, there's somewhere in the rules that says that when you're in a larger gravity field such as a planets, you are supposed to use the normal rules for catapults/ballistas).
although this still doesn't explain why you can't shoot a catapult at a close-up target, it does open up the possibility that when you fire a catapult in wildspace, you are not hurling the boulder in the usual fashion, but rather directly at the target (by releasing the boulder at a different point in the catapult's swing, that is).
that being said, i prefer the assumption that SJ catapults are actually just ballistas that throw rocks (i would also remove the minimum range of the catapult for the same reason) =P but that's just my personal house rule ;)
I see what your saying, but having seen artwork that displays mangorels on ships really confuses the issue. At one point I had rationalized how a Mangorel should work but the idea of trying to get your ship in a 90 degree (or more) position off set from another ship makes combat convoluted and hard to display on the game table. (But possible)
Should new material be created, it should have details on how combat changes once in Wildspace. After all that's where things get to be fun.
I see what your saying, but having seen artwork that displays mangorels on ships really confuses the issue. At one point I had rationalized how a Mangorel should work but the idea of trying to get your ship in a 90 degree (or more) position off set from another ship makes combat convoluted and hard to display on the game table. (But possible)
Should new material be created, it should have details on how combat changes once in Wildspace. After all that's where things get to be fun.
generally speaking, abstracting the motion of the ship to include moving at an angle isn't so weird. keep in mind that we're dealing with wacky gravity... the ship may appear to go on it's side from the perspective of the observer, but as far as everyone on the ship is concerned, up never moved (although what precisely happens to be in the direction of up may have changed considerably =P )
this is especially true if we assume 2nd edition's 1 minute long rounds, where ships are moving at least 500 yards each turn (and in the case of faster ships, several miles). if we assume 3rd edition's 6 second rounds, that might complicate things a little though =P
also, like i said, by releasing the boulder at a different point you could reasonably assume that a 90 degree change is not necessary... you might be able to get away with a 60 or even a 30 degree change (also keeping in mind that the basic SJ ship combat rules don't like to deal with such minor details as relative "elevation" in the first place, you can abstract a lot of stuff away in such a system =S =P
generally speaking, abstracting the motion of the ship to include moving at an angle isn't so weird. keep in mind that we're dealing with wacky gravity... the ship may appear to go on it's side from the perspective of the observer, but as far as everyone on the ship is concerned, up never moved (although what precisely happens to be in the direction of up may have changed considerably =P )
this is especially true if we assume 2nd edition's 1 minute long rounds, where ships are moving at least 500 yards each turn (and in the case of faster ships, several miles). if we assume 3rd edition's 6 second rounds, that might complicate things a little though =P
also, like i said, by releasing the boulder at a different point you could reasonably assume that a 90 degree change is not necessary... you might be able to get away with a 60 or even a 30 degree change (also keeping in mind that the basic SJ ship combat rules don't like to deal with such minor details as relative "elevation" in the first place, you can abstract a lot of stuff away in such a system =S =P
You correct abou that but they system get a bit hinky when you think about arcs of fire. Guns and side mounted ballista below decks would be out of fireing arc if the catapult was launching ammo. On the other hand, how fast can ship spin on its stern to aft axis in not something that I can remember, so maybe that is something I have overlooked. I have my books in the other room. I can look that up. Even still, I most of the ship designs that are popular from the original version of Spelljammer really work better with non-arcing weapons IMHO, so I think I would I rather see that those weapons were put on the back burner so to speak. The seem great for aerial bombardment, not so much for ship to ship. If I was a Neogi Slaver, I'd load up on Mangorels to tear apart a towns defenses and then send in the Umber Hulks to sweep up the defenders.
I wonder if the Star Wars Saga system has somethings that can translate into ship to ship combat for Spelljammer 4e that would be worth looking into.
As for standing behind what you believe; such sanctimonious comments should be used for topics that actually require a true commitment - you know, like war, taxation, and the right to privacy - not on inane topics that matter to no one, not even the people arguing about them.
Why are you here?
I did like Spelljammer but I do agree that it doesn't really 'fit' with the classical D&D worlds.
That said Spelljammer campaigns were great fun with some seriously great adventures. My personal fav is Under a Dark fist. Best bad guys ever; chainmail armoured Werewolfs and Fighter/mages with staffs of power. Witchlight Marauders were another monster I liked.
few things.
Weapons didn't arc in spelljammer, they just travelled a certain distance per turn. You could hit stationary targets from way off.
Darksun. People knew were it was but the crystal sphere doesn't open, nor have any openings.
Scro!
I though Crystal spheres was a great fantasy way to close in planes, though it doesn't fit well with plane shifting.
TBH I love spelljammer but it really should get a restraining order to not be within 300 yards of another setting at all times. Spelljammer is great but doesn't 'tack on' well and ends up being like 2nd ed Psionics, Kinda works but doesn't feel right.
Darksun. People knew were it was but the crystal sphere doesn't open, nor have any openings.
Actually, there is conflicting canon as to whether Dark Sun (Athas) is a part of the Spelljammer/Planescape Material plane, or if it is in its own separate Material plane with its own cosmology.
There is even an Athasian Ravenloft domain, which further muddies things.
Actually, there is conflicting canon as to whether Dark Sun (Athas) is a part of the Spelljammer/Planescape Material plane, or if it is in its own separate Material plane with its own cosmology.
There is even an Athasian Ravenloft domain, which further muddies things.
You just have to rely on the materials for the setting you are running in (versus the setting you are visiting). As far as Planescape, Spelljammer, and Ravenloft are concerned, Athas is accessible. As far as Dark Sun is concerned, the Great Wheel, wildspace, and the Demiplane of Dread are not. In the end, who can go where is up to the DM.
You just have to rely on the materials for the setting you are running in (versus the setting you are visiting). As far as Planescape, Spelljammer, and Ravenloft are concerned, Athas is accessible. As far as Dark Sun is concerned, the Great Wheel, wildspace, and the Demiplane of Dread are not. In the end, who can go where is up to the DM.
I know exactly what you mean, and I run it the same way – if I run a Dark Sun campaign, that's it, you will most likely stay on Athas, maybe visit an elemental plane, the astral or the Grey or something, but no spelljamming or planar hopping or visiting other material worlds (Toril etc).
But if I run a Planescape campaign, you can be whatever you want and come from wherever you want and go wherever you want - Warforged ranger, sure! Mul barbarian, right on! Kozakuran Samurai, fine!
I know exactly what you mean, and I run it the same way – if I run a Dark Sun campaign, that's it, you will most likely stay on Athas, maybe visit an elemental plane, the astral or the Grey or something, but no spelljamming or planar hopping or visiting other material worlds (Toril etc).
But if I run a Planescape campaign, you can be whatever you want and come from wherever you want and go wherever you want - Warforged ranger, sure! Mul barbarian, right on! Kozakuran Samurai, fine!
Nemo the Lost, my handle-sake, is actually an Oeridian daggerspell mage whose wife is an Athasian halfling daggerspell shaper. They met in the Beastlands.
a.) Catch the older gamers with fond memories
b.) Catch the newer gamers with the wicked space fantasy feel that they never had the chance to experiance
Win win situation is it not?
However, even if we get it, it won't be for a few more years.
Year 1: Forgotten Realms
Year 2: Ebberon
And I'm guessing after that either Grayhawk, Mystara, or Ravenloft. All really good choices that will hit the market well. Or they could just buy the rights to Iron Heroes
Spelljammer should be flavored by the published campaign settings, not so much the other way around. The way I see a Spelljamming campaign working is as a series of adventures and mini-campaigns which visit multiple worlds. From a marketing standpoint, this could work really well by showcasing *all* of the campaign worlds that are in production. Which then targets Spelljammer to a specific gamer demographic, namely the demo which has access and interest in all of the published campaign worlds.
As far as the 2e Spelljammer game goes, I'd like to see the physics and metaphysics simplified. Instead of trying to make modern astrophysical principles work with imaginary magic. Lay down consistent "laws" of course, but make them work *with* the established D&D setting rather than against it. Because, as one wise poster mentioned, we already threw real-world physics out the window when we achieved escape velocity in a wooden boat.
For this, I wouldn't mind waiting four or five years to give a couple of campaign settings time to grow and develop, then tie them together with Spelljammer. Perhaps in the next year, add Planescape to the mix, and have two methods of cross-campaign play.
That's what the line should be based on. Sorry, but I'm not a fan of "crossbridge" setting products.
1) If a DM doens't want Crystal SPheres, fine, just say high speeds outside Solar Systems let travel be fast (consideirng the distances) to other solar systems (no gravity form Suns slowing the helm perhaps).
2) I've always preffered ballista for those self-same reasons about firing arcs! However, a catapult armed with "helmseeking" ammunition or similar, or shrapnel that forms lethal clouds of debris, make sense. Or you can imagine that a warship armed with a +1 Frost Helsmeeking Heavy Catapult would be a great investment!
Folk had too narrow a view of D&D, fantasy, and space travel, that's what caused problems with SPelljammer, folk should be more open now ;)
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/sj/manowar/manowar_2007_v5.jpg
for that matter, you can have a perfectly viable SJ game while staying in one sphere. the only thing that can force the game out of one sphere is if your gaming group decides that's where they want to go with it.
as such, i'd rather have rules that allow you to travel from CS to CS, because there is nothing forcing you to use those rules, but not having those rules means we have to homebrew the phlogiston/crystal shells (most of the rules probably aren't too hard to convert, but it helps for moving from group to group, especially with the increased focus in online gaming 4e is likely to bring to the table). having those rules does not force anyone to use them, and does not add work for those who don't want them. but not having those rules makes extra work for those who do want them. as such, i would advocate their inclusion.
Folk had too narrow a view of D&D, fantasy, and space travel, that's what caused problems with SPelljammer, folk should be more open now ;)
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/sj/manowar/manowar_2007_v5.jpg
If it is its own unique setting with its own identity and flavor, not a place to dump FR and GH characters together.
Shadow of the Spider Moon mini-setting is an example of what I like to see with Spelljammer.
Otherwise, dump the setting format and go with themebook like Heroes of Battle.
I'm currently enjoying a SJ campaign that's been going on 2.5 years now using a mix of 2nd & 3.5 rules. I like it, its been fun. Somethings are too silly, some things are awesome. Maybe, just maybe things need to fall down to Rule Number 0.
Do whatever works for you group and enjoy yourselves and try to have fun. If you want to Spell Jam, then sit in that major helm and shove all your spells into it. If you want to make the changes you want out make for your game then you should. Canon be damned!
That's right. I said it. Anyone can publish whatever they want, but people will use what works for them. I have a long complaint about using gaming books word for word or rule for rule (which bleeds into another rant about similar fanatical thinking on more real world issues). Sometimes one loop of the rule isn't in the spirit of the game. Maybe it depends on the tone of your game. Silly, serious, fantastic, science fictiony, pulpy, or whatever.
Canon explodes every couple of years. Hell, major intellectual properties can't keep their *insert four letter word for poo* strait. Just look at DC comics and Marvel comics. Marvel handles it by things like a sliding timescale and intentionally being all in good fun, at least to quote the character Wade Wilson. DC has spent around 20 years trying to sort out their cannon and maybe they'll finally sort things out.
So go, bravely into your phlogesten, void, sphereless, crystal sphered, meta-setting, self contained setting, rainbow planets with purple people eaters who are purple because they eat the fruit on the purple section of the rainbow planet but they're called purple people eaters so why the dice are they eating purple fruit why oh why, or whatever else you want.
Spell Jam, Plane walk, do neither, save the world, burn it to the ground. Do what you want to do. Me, I'm gonna cross the streams on as many things as possible in my own games, because so far it has worked. When I've tried to kick things out or limit things to a single idea, the games went badly.
I know what works for me, so just use what works for you.
I wouldn't mind seeing a spelljamming hardcover...it would be a nice touch. But it may or may not be in the cards, and if it is and I ever use it then regardless of what is written, it'll be used to make the Spell Jammer I remembered and enjoyed if I don't agree with what I read.
So yeah...Rule Zero it. Maybe that can help put out fires, maybe it just starts more.
I'm sure FR have their own fleet of flying ships and doesn't use the spelljamming rules.
DL have flying fortresses before Spelljammers becomes a household word (at least in the household containing a D&D nerd).
I was trying to follow the thread because I haven't checked in in a while but my eyes kinda glazed over.
Someone mentioned books being canon and specifically Eberron novels. The Eberron novels claim is false. The are deliberately keeping it that way allowing DMs to decide what is canon.
Also, IIRC there was a planescape/spelljammer crossover that involved a DL novel and 2 FR novels. Finders Bane was one I think and the SJ character got polymorphed or cursed some how to be a bird humanoid and brought a Kender to the Realms. Can anyone confirm?
Also, IIRC there was a planescape/spelljammer crossover that involved a DL novel and 2 FR novels. Finders Bane was one I think and the SJ character got polymorphed or cursed some how to be a bird humanoid and brought a Kender to the Realms. Can anyone confirm?
aye THE CLOAKMASTER CYCLE, was the name of the novel series that went from DL to FR etc
I'm on the 5th book right now. It has nothing to do with Planecape though.
with the characters Jas (Spelljammer Woman), Emilo Haversack(Kender), and the rebel Bard. I have never read the cloakmaster cycle so know that is not it.
Someone mentioned books being canon and specifically Eberron novels. The Eberron novels claim is false. The are deliberately keeping it that way allowing DMs to decide what is canon.
You mean like how the Star Trek franchise deal with novels and motion pictures (with the exception of the animated series)?
Actually I think it was Finder's Bane, Fistandantilus Reborn, and Tymora's Luck
with the characters Jas (Spelljammer Woman), Emilo Haversack(Kender), and the rebel Bard. I have never read the cloakmaster cycle so know that is not it.
Sounds interesting. I will have to look into it.
The thing about 4e Spelljammer that I'm concerned with is that it is not even close to a Points of Light or even Points of Darkness campaign. It's bright, cheery, and goofy swashbuckling.
It also has GIFF! You gotta love giff ;)
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/wildspace/11.htm
Sorry don't follow Star Trek and am not sure as to what you are refering to. Google here I come!
Oh, great. I'm talking to a kid.
Oh, great. I'm talking to a kid.
Only children don't keep abreast of Star Trek? Or are you implying something entirely different?
Only children don't keep abreast of Star Trek? Or are you implying something entirely different?
Yeah, that I'm old.
Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon. (It's a mini-setting in Dungeon/Polyhedron magazine.)
That's what the line should be based on. Sorry, but I'm not a fan of "crossbridge" setting products.
We seem to disagree on a lot of things, but this just isn't one of them. Spider Moon would be a great seed for a relaunch of Spelljammer using the DI, since it would need to prove it has an audience before they'd do a book.
Yeah, that I'm old.
It happens to all of us eventually it seems.
The thing about 4e Spelljammer that I'm concerned with is that it is not even close to a Points of Light or even Points of Darkness campaign. It's bright, cheery, and goofy swashbuckling.
But in its initial theme or reimagining for the new edition, it could be written as quite literally a points of light style game...heh, I made a funny.
spelljammer isn't really setting-neutral, so it doesn't necessarily have to absolutely every race and class from core in the same way (ie, eladrin could have a dislike for space and be rare there).
it is important to remember that trying to cram everything from setting-neutral material is not necessarily desireable... as any DS fan will tell you, paladins don't belong anywhere near athas.
i'm not saying that spelljammer necessarily has to reject everything from core and redesign from the ground up (in fact, the way spelljammer is set up you could eventually run into just about anything from just about any setting), but rather, it simply means that core not fitting perfectly with spelljammer is not a concern. heck, 4e 'core' sounds like it's not going to really fit in with any previous edition's 'core' anyways.
If they came out with 4th Ed Spelljammer, they should emphasize that it is a campaign setting in its own right, not just a taxi service to get from Krynn to Toril or what have you, as it was often, unfortunately, used.
I agree. Focusing on SJ as its own setting would make it much more enjoyable.
Havard
Bring back Shadow of the Spider Moon.
in any case, i would definitely welcome a solid framework of rules for spelljammer/airship combat... good vehicle rules are hard to come by... and i can always just buy the *old* spelljamming materials (most of which i already own anyways) and use the flavor to get real spelljammer. after all, once the crunch has been developed, i don't need to worry about the fluff, since that doesn't necessarily have to change from edition to edition.
shadows of the spider moon wasn't really spelljammer either. it was spelljammer-esque, but it didn't have a ton of the stuff that was in spelljammer.
So, we re-imagine it.
I'd vote for -esque in favor of its existing version, which is a "bridge" setting.
You want to re-introduce the organizations and whatnot into this standalone setting, fine by me.
So, we re-imagine it.
I'd vote for -esque in favor of its existing version, which is a "bridge" setting.
You want to re-introduce the organizations and whatnot into this standalone setting, fine by me.
yes, that's exactly what i said in the latter half of my post, which you didn't quote.
like i said, i would be most interested in having some good, strong rules for vehicle combat (particularly air vehicle or submersible vehicle rules would be rather easy to adapt to wildspace).
Many years ago I created my own version of the Spelljammer setting where the underlying principle was vastly different.
Basically each ship would have a "Ward Room" in which magical pentagrams were permanently etched into the walls and floors. From here a magician or cleric would summon a powerful planar being and use that as the driving force for the Spelljammer. Even a non-spellcaster, using the ward room could at least barter for a planar being's services making the setting less dependant on spell casters
Anyone could helm the ship for once summoned, the being provided the base attributes of the Spelljammer leaving the magician or cleric free to cast spells in combat. If a spellcaster wanted to he could sacrifice spells in order to provide additional boosts to surprise enemies in ship to ship combat
Different planar beings gave different bonuses:
--Air beings: Increased Speed and Maneuverability
--Fire Beings: Increased Firepower
--Earth Beings: Increased Hull and resistance to damage
--Water: Increased "shields"
--Other beings like demons, assasimar, provided a mix of benefits but were usually more likely to run rampant if somehow freed of their bonds
Yes, weapons and shields. In the setting I created the ships had cannons. Cannons and magical spells like fireballs could be stopped by enemy shields as they were magical bolts of energy. Catapults and ballistae however sailed right on through.
It worked quite well but unfortunately my players wanted to resume play with our Forgotten Realms characters whose adventures had more of a "soap opera" feel.
Your opinions on this variant are of interest.
Your opinions on this variant are of interest.
sounds like an interesting idea. i'm not a huge fan of the shields and cannons, personally, but alternate abilities could most certainly be used i would think.
i also have to agree with one thing you implied (but never quite came out and explicitly said): it kinda sucks to be a level 10 wizard or whatever and never be able to cast spells because you have to be the helmsman for 12 hours a day (and it sucks just as much when the party cleric is likewise stuck being helmsman for half a day and can't use their spells either). the regular setting did allow for types of helms other than just regular spelljamming helms though, and keeping that in mind i don't think it was a huge problem. i do think that spelljamming helms should leave the spellcaster with some kind of ability available to them, though, even if it's a reduced ability (for example, if the target gets a +X circumstance bonus to their saving throw or something like that, or if it reduces caster level temporarily, or whatever).
Maybe they'll give something like that a try at some point.
I should probably express a little more why the shields and cannons became fairly popular considering how they felt "Star Trek" or "Star Wars". I didn't use the Phlogiston, always hated the crysteal sphere concept and As a result shields came in handy since they stopped magical effects like fireballs and magic missiles from passing through. Generally, all my players who had spells threw fireballs at the rigging or magic missiled the helmsman.
This had the unfortunate tendency to remove most of the tactical consideration. The general theory was, "Go for the Head, the body dies", ie the helmsman. Teleport the entire boarding party around the helmsman and the battle was over within moments.
When I added shields players were presented with a dilemma, when I added the ability of any man to take the helm they were more stumped. The basic cheap tricks didn't work anymore.
Should they go for more cannons and supplement with magic and hope to take down the shields so they could teleport in or throw fireballs into the rigging... or should they go with the ballistae which lacked the range and accuracy and hope to whole the hull and crew directly. Maybe they'd even get lucky and hit the wardroom, freeing the planar being who would either leave or turn on the crew (depending on the binding contract and one of the dangers of using demons for their more powerful bonuses)
They also had skiffs that they could launch in order to try boarding from a distance which made for some very exciting and intense battles. There was nothing like the suspense of rushing the enemy in one of those skiffs that lacked the sheilds of a big ship.
The only thing that drove me batty is that I never came up with a good rationale for the "cannons". I basically glared at any of my players that dared ask how they were powered
I basically hand waved it aside, claiming they were also powered by the planar being, otherwise... how else would they deliver a bonus.as far as blasting the rigging away, that works for the other guys too, and will only reduce MC as i recall... the other ship could easily be firing bolts and rocks into the side of your ship while you're busy with burning their rigging. not to mention the sheer range of spelljammer combat tends to mean that most spells aren't going to reach the other ship's rigging unless you're already in boarding range (remember, 1 hex away is 500 yards, which is really quite far... those 'short ranged' ballistas and catapults have ranges of 1,000 yards or more!)