Each world and each setting has its own feel. Greyhawk seems to be about the dungeon crawl, Forgotten Realms is big enough for any adventure, Dark Sun is a post-apocalyptic world, Dragonlance is romantic fantasy, etc. etc.
So what is the Spelljammer feel?
The first response, of course, is fantasy space adventures. Okay, fine, but what does that mean?
Spelljammer began as a way to travel from one of your favorite fantasy worlds to another. That's fine, well, and good, but SJ needs to have it's own identity as a setting, rather than as a means of traveling between worlds.
When I look at SJ, I think partially of swashbuckling adventures. I think that you have to look at the whole mariner side to SJ, as it is a huge factor. I also think that there needs to be a certain "sci-fi" element to SJ, since it is in space (although without advanced technology).
So, what is the "SJ feel"? What do you think?
Edit - Hmmm, now that I think about it, a lot revolves around life on asteroids & small moons. That's another aspect; the ability of a small group of people to establish their own colonies, maybe not unlike the early explorations into the Carribbean Sea.
but seriously, there's a serious Pulp Sci-Fantasy element in there as well, from the few books i have in the range (hope to get more soon:D), and the art style also hints at a Pulp feel as well...
Well when one thinks of fantasy one thinks of 'Tolkien' ... AD&D took this to extremes by combining mythologies of many cultures, lots of magic and magical critters, dragons and heroic saga set in the middle ages.
But with Spelljammer it has elements that is not all the above... it has Pirates, Ships, Smoke Powder and Archaic Firearms.... to this mix is added myth, magic and the heavens above the worlds.
The problem most DMs that I have talk to is that they want to include middle age feel, dungeon crawling and middle age culture... and well ... that is not spelljammer.
Spelljammer is more then goblins, orcs, elves and noble wars fought in middle ages... it should be set in a world of Exploration, Renaissance, Buccaneers, smell of smoke powder in the air and the Stellar Winds breezing thru ones hair with the expectation of Pirates appearing out of the nearby Nebula (much as one might expect to see a Pirate to appear from behind a island and have full wind toward your craft).
Joy once felt of saliors on the sea of seeing dolphins, is replace by seeing the majestic kindori or star selkies at play. Gulls are not just white they are magical beast with a great multitude of color.
And with all things the great voids between the worlds need to be crossed as cargo is too heavy and teleport (especially in 3.5) not allow for such loads. Merchants also seek new worlds with new fruits, veggies, beasts, and rare artifacts and relics to bring to the bored people who have explored most of their moons and asteroids and want new and exciting things.
New races need to be more then repackage 'humans'... Neogi, Sathar/Syllix, Osakar, Dralasites are just more exciting, as finding such races would add excitement to one journey... [better then .... yawn... another color/height of elf].
Cultures more alien then are own (or take a culture one has never seen before or not commonly known and intro that culture).
Imagine what it must have been for the Magellan, Darwin, Columbus, and Cortez when they first encountered the New World! It not just about what races, but new plants, critters and resources.
One of the reasons I love Treasure Planet is that it has 'solar surfboards' (surfing was practiced by the people of the Hawaiian Islands long before the coming of the first explorers so why not have such items in a fantasy space). Spelljammer should have a 'Tinge' more science but should also be very magical.
If myth has it that monks/ninja can run on water, then why not have monks run on gravity planes?
I have never lost the love for the Spelljammer settings and I love to see new Stuff others create for the setting. One of the foundations that I first fell in love with spelljammer was Crystal Spheres, and the only reason I would do away with such in some future expansion is that too many people are too much science minded, (it would likely sell better to the science minded if the crystal spheres where removed... but that would only kill the setting more). I love the Wonky aspects of the Phlogiston and Crystal spheres.
I find that Spelljammer has a very TANGABLE feel to it. More science then what most fantasy worlds have, but without removing the magic. And all the above reasons are why it is so wonderful.
When I think of spelljammer I draw strongly from Frank Herbert, Pirate Films, and Wonky Science from before we knew the world was spherical, Adventures of Baron Munchausen, Dangerous Beauty. I have included Magical Bicycles, and other such stuff from Wild Wild West (retro it back a hundred years).
What I notice we keep coming back to is swashbuckling adventures. I'm more determined than ever that this is a key aspect to SJ, and that classes should reflect this.
Treasure Planet is very near and dear to my heart when it concerns Spelljammer. I love it. I absolutely think it is brilliant. You get to see how a spelljamming ship would work, right in front of you. There's a definite feel of colonialism about the movie.
Also, that sense of exploration feels right to me. I keep thinking about Enterprise, and how they don't hardly know anyone outside of their system. Everything is new and exciting.
If I were to run a Spelljammer game, I think I would start out with a society that has skyships, but they've just learned how to travel beyond their planet. For the first time, they're ready to leave their sphere.
Whoops! It's late, so we can pick this up in the morn.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Treasure Planet is very near and dear to my heart when it concerns Spelljammer. I love it. I absolutely think it is brilliant. You get to see how a spelljamming ship would work, right in front of you. There's a definite feel of colonialism about the movie.
yep, love that film, it's what's gotten me interested in Spelljammer.....
From my perspective, it is also a very difficult question to answer. I have never found it easy to quantify an overall "feel" for SJ. For me sometimes, it resembles nothing more than a melting pot of different aspects and ideas from the multitude of outside campaign settings.
Other times, material such as Treasure Planet, inspire a greater degree of appreciation for what exactly SJ is trying to bring forth - a fantasy/space campaign. In this instance, I can "feel" SJ as something more than just a simple campaign on paper.
As a player of other SF games, such as Star Frontiers, Star Wars, Dragonstar and a number of other non-d20 settings (AeroTech, Battlespace), I find it hard to distinguish between the two types of methods for playing "in-space".
The one main thing though that I find I "feel" when it comes to SJ...is an ever expanding platform of creativity - because when fantasy/space adventures are involved...anything is possible...
1. Swashbuckling Adventures
2. Melting Pot of ideas
3. Space-based - Meaning anything is possible
I always said that SJ was sort of an amalgam of ideas, where anything is possible.
Imagine all the possibilities you get traveling from world to world. New races with classes unique to their world, new equipment and technology, and new ways of looking at magic. New ship designs, new politics, and maybe some new powers (i.e. psionics). The list goes on.
The connective aspects of Spell Jammer ment that players could be from, really, any where in the TSR universe! I once ran a campaign where the players where all from diffrent works, and it started out with them being cargo on a Neogi slave ship (slaves/food! With Neogi it was a circumstancial fate). One player was an Irda from Dragonlance, another was from Cormyr in FRs, one was from the Rock of Braal, and the final player was from my campaign world. Needless to say, their first adventure was to escape from the Neogi ship!
And yet, it all gelled so very well. With each world now having unique cosmologies, I'm having a hard time trying to work out that connection between the worlds that was once so obvious in the previous edition.
I'm having a hard time trying to work out that connection between the worlds that was once so obvious in the previous edition.
Well that should not be tough as long as one maintains both crystal spheres and the plogiston. All should still be the same.
In neither Forgotten Realms 3e or other products have they dismissed the idea of a phlogiston, nor have they confirmed it.
But are right "Connectivity" is also another aspect of the Spelljammer feel.
My views on this have changed a bit. The module Wild Elves for Dragonlance was part of it. In the module, the players encounter drow. I have nothing against drow, but they don't belong in the Dragonlance setting. The potential is there to bring in orcs, lycanthropes, halflings, etc. - all elements that should not be in the Dragonlance setting.
Dragonlance also demonstrates how magic can work differently in each sphere, such as the case with the moon gods giving arcane magic to wizards, where wizards from other worlds get their magic elsewhere.
Let's not forget DL's advanced timeline, either. Connecting each world forces them to stay with the same timeline.
HOWEVER - I do agree that connectivity is a factor for Spelljammer. I know, I'm contradicting myself. I'll try to explain.
I've said many times that I feel that Spelljammer needs two things. First, it needs to be a setting that can stand on it's own two feet. Spelljammer was a great way to go from Greyhawk to the Realms and to Dragonlance. Yet take those away, and it didn't have a vibrant, exciting setting of its own.
Some settings, such as Dragonlance, should not as the standard be connected to a greater multiverse. Not that you couldn't connect it through SJ if you wanted to, but that it shouldn't be the standard.
This brings me to my second point. Spelljammer should not only be a setting in and of itself, but also give you the capability to tie into other worlds/settings. It needs to be customizable, so that if you wanted to go to Pern, you could, or to Krynn, or to Oerth, and so on and so forth.
I think that's an element that has been missing from SJ - customizability. Before, the spheres were all mapped out, and you had to follow certain paths from sphere to sphere. Imagine if you will the ability to use or to drop any sphere you wanted. Hate Bralspace? Don't use it. Want Realmspace? Add it in.
Anyhoo, just some thoughts from me.
"Conquest"
More for me to conquer and rule.... in a different way. A whole vast "ocean" of space ready for me to dive into.. explore, pillage, plunder.
The sheer greatness of wildspace and the curiousity of off-world beings has always been, and more than likely, will always be enough reason and "feel" for my players to get excited when they run into ship.
They like to take a break from the dungeon crawl-save the town-destroy the evil, rinse/wash/repeat, and its nice for me too!
Abysslin
Originally posted by neverness
And yet, it all gelled so very well. With each world now having unique cosmologies, I'm having a hard time trying to work out that connection between the worlds that was once so obvious in the previous edition.
the unique cosmologies is something alot of people seem to have difficulties with. I don't really understand why, personally. The cosmologies are based on the beliefs of the people within a Crystal Sphere, IMO, so their placement, possibly even attributes could easily vary from sphere to sphere, and it would be represented within places like the abyss as being like islands within the infinite planes of reality. This would make Spelljamming far more logical for going from Sphere to Sphere than Planewalking, since in plane walking if you were to enter the abyss in FR, you might have to cross over to tanerus (or something) to connect to a nuetral plane to get to the abyss in DL or Greyhawk, then to exit to the world of Krynn or Oerth. (This pattern wasn't based off of any cosmology setup I've seen, I just put it together as an example.) Basically, to travel from one world to another in this kind of setup, one would have to follow a complex planar hopping, that would take time and power. On the other hand, Spell Jamming to Krynnspace from Realmspace would be fairly straightfoward and simple. If you've ever read Raymond Feist's Midkemia books, you could basically use the hall of worlds as representative of Plane Walking (in 2e, that is what I did, since I preferred his setup over that which I saw when I browsed the PlaneWalker materials.)
Conquest was a definte point in my games. Once i got Goblins return, where the Scro were introduced, I had the gobliniods on many ships and planetiods start staging large battles or even wars in the name of goblin conquest.
The seagoing mariner aspect is major aspect to the game as the game gives you a lot of seagoing terms.
Trade was very important, especially for the more durable goods, for the medevial time period; wepons, magic items, wood, cloth silks, etc etc.
:D
This is such an interesting thread, I wish I had noticed it, when I first joined this forum.
Anyhoo, for me, rather than "conectivity", I see SJ as being about "alienness".
I see Spelljammer as a great way to take a crew of Forgotten Realms PCs and dump them on a planet where they don't know any local knowledge.
Products like Wild Elves are a perfect demonstration of what SJ can do, because just like some people think that Wild Elves doesn't belong in Dragonlance, some local groundlings are going to think that the visiting spacefarers do not belong there. An amarda of scro might not belong in Dragonlance, but a single half-orc PC that travels to Krynn would be seen as some sort of unidentified mutated human. They might face some sort of discrimination from the locals, but it certainly wouldn't be the sort of anti-orc discrimination that half-orcs face elsewhere, because that just would not exist.
Spelljammer also allows you to take any off-the-shelf-campaign setting and throw it at your players (without explaining the campaign setting). Usually, it is good to explain a bit about a game world, but with SJ you can use the conective element of the setting to conceal the identity of the campaign setting that you are borrowing from and deliberately withold information from the players as a method to get them to discover the world at the same time as their PCs.
Spelljammer also allows you to turn RPG cliches upside down, by creating the occasional planet with something like black skinned elves that are good or surface elves that are evil.
Using SJ to challange preconceptions of D&D "facts" allows a GM to force his players to actually think about every aspect of the game. If over done, this could frustrate players, but if done right, it should give them a sense of wonder and make them look at every aspect of the universe, as if seeing it for the first time.
Another great thing about Spelljammer, is that the "drop in" nature of crystal spheres allows you to take two things that don't normally work together and use SJ as a bridge. If you want a Kender ninja, just export one from Krynn (or Krynnspace) and make them meet the Shou Lung.
So as well as alienness, I see discovery, a challange to previous beliefs and exploration (for the sake of exploration).
So, what is the "SJ feel"? What do you think?
Everything you see in swashbuckling films and pirate movies, only space is the uncharted "sea."
And what you take for a standard fantasy campaign setting, and turn it into a universe. IOW, you have an elf planet (or planetary system) that is pretty much like Kashyykkk (sp?)
Everything you see in swashbuckling films and pirate movies, only space is the uncharted "sea."
I don't think you will get many arguments there.
And what you take for a standard fantasy campaign setting, and turn it into a universe. IOW, you have an elf planet (or planetary system) that is pretty much like Kashyykkk (sp?)
This is an interesting concept, but I think it would need more to it to not seem too two dimensional.
For example, you would probably need to add nomadic orcs and humanoids that could fight a running war with the elves.
And if you had an entire system of forest worlds, you would need to make one a humid rain forest, one a dry wooded planet with regular forest fires and another a cold world where snow covers trees like pine trees for half the year.
Even that might not be enough variety, but it would be a start.
This is an interesting concept, but I think it would need more to it to not seem too two dimensional.
For example, you would probably need to add nomadic orcs and humanoids that could fight a running war with the elves.
And if you had an entire system of forest worlds, you would need to make one a humid rain forest, one a dry wooded planet with regular forest fires and another a cold world where snow covers trees like pine trees for half the year.
Even that might not be enough variety, but it would be a start.
If you want to add in details, by all means go ahead.
