just to satisfy a bit of curiosity since the subject comes up from time to time, but why is it that some people want to have spelljammers in the dark sun world?
For example, what matters the scarcity of metal if some enterprising merchant from Oerth or Toril could fly in steel swords by the boatload?
Restricting access to Athas is needful if one wants to explain why some sorceror-king isn't pumping water in from other planes.
Originally posted by Psionycx
It wasn't there originally because the "closed" nature of Athas is crucial to preserving the theme.
For example, what matters the scarcity of metal if some enterprising merchant from Oerth or Toril could fly in steel swords by the boatload?
Restricting access to Athas is needful if one wants to explain why some sorceror-king isn't pumping water in from other planes.
That's what I thought, but there does seem to be some interest in having SJ & DS mixed; just wondering why that is
What about SJ is appealing to DS players?Originally posted by Nightdruid
What about SJ is appealing to DS players?
Are you kiding!?!
I've been running for 5 years merchants from Kara-Tur in spelljamming vessels that have been supplying the undeads of the South with samouraï swords!
They've started the invasion about a week ago: there is air support and a SK as already fallen, plowed into the ground by a giant arbalest!!!
...sorry, but there wasn't any smily that shot hitself thru the head...
Originally posted by Pennarin
...sorry, but there wasn't any smily that shot hitself thru the head...
Heh, I'm shocked you didn't have a SK devoured by a giant space hamster!! :D Or pecked to death by a dohwar...;)
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Your water example isn't quite as good, as there is access to the elemental plane of water. Of course, that's restricted to clerics for the most part.
But it's extremely limited. Notice that, for example, there are no Decanters of Endless Water don't work on Athas. You can't freely bring large amounts of elemental water to Athas, probably because of the metaphysical conflict between elements (see Earth, Air, Fire & Water).
This is why that Green Age Planar Gate that Dregoth has is an artifact. In theory psionicists should be able to easily bring matter to Athas, in practice they can't.
I think that's half the reason people want Spelljammers. The other half is because it would turn Athas into Frank Herbert's Dune.
Originally posted by Psionycx
This is why that Green Age Planar Gate that Dregoth has is an artifact. In theory psionicists should be able to easily bring matter to Athas, in practice they can't.
I think that's half the reason people want Spelljammers. The other half is because it would turn Athas into Frank Herbert's Dune.
Interesting...so there's a desire for a) a means to save Athas and b) make it Dune (something I'm not terribly familiar with) ??
Originally posted by Psionycx
Sure. Remember that as the Dune storyline played out, Arakis was gradually transformed from a desert into a verdant world.
Right...I knew that (barely...;) ) Interesting.
The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering if it would be possible to create a Dark-Sun themed sphere to satisfy the desire for DS-SJ; I noticed on another thread that Rajaat visited other worlds; perhaps he visited (and largely destroyed) another sphere, the reminants of which resemble Dark Sun in many ways.
But it sounds like its more of a case of wanting a means to save Athas.
I can understand what you mean. I suppose it's not unreasonable to suggest that maybe spelljammers could put in at some unknown city-state outside the Tyr Region.
A side issue is a power source. As a Dark Sun DM I was always very strict about the concept that Athas does not have a "Weave" of magic similar to worlds like Toril. Preserving and Defiling magic are not optional because ignorant natives don't know any better. It would be ridiculous that people whose intelligence can reach levels that would be considered godlike on other worlds couldn't figure out how to access ambient magic without needed life energy. We also know that Athas is closed to gods and they can't channel power to clerics there.
That makes Athas a pretty hostile world to most visitors from other places. It also raises the question of how much life-energy would be needed to empower a spelljammer. If "Athaspace" follows the same rules as the planet itself, then a spellcaster venturing into wildspace might run out of magic fairly fast (no plants in space, usually). Elemental clerics migth have less of a problem, but most of them would have a hard time fathoming leaving the elemental world of Athas for an open void like Wildspace.
Part of the notion of the Dune saga was religion. And the Fremen were a people that hoped that an outside intercessor (the Voice of the Outer World) would come and help them transform Arrakis. Incidentally, they weren't happy when it was done. They found the bountiful world too "soft" and easy to live in.
Where would the fun be of saving Athas if it was as easy as bringing in some outside help, opening a few gates, or flying in soem spaceships?
Originally posted by Psionycx
So who then would be our "God-Emperor" of Athas and the Known Universe?
I can understand what you mean. I suppose it's not unreasonable to suggest that maybe spelljammers could put in at some unknown city-state outside the Tyr Region.
Where would the fun be of saving Athas if it was as easy as bringing in some outside help, opening a few gates, or flying in soem spaceships?
Right; that's kinda why I'd suggest a different sphere/solar system; it'd have all the themes of DS (preserving/defiling magic only, sorcerer kings ruling over asteroid city states, scarce resources, etc.). But instead of a big desert, there'd be asteroids and ruined worlds; a bigger sandbox and some different toys, as it were, but reconnizable by fans of both settings.
But that's just me rambling; I own very little DS so I may be way off base here
So who then would be our "God-Emperor" of Athas and the Known Universe?
*begins scribbling notes for a far future Athas that has been nagging in the back of his mind for some time*
So who then would be our "God-Emperor" of Athas and the Known Universe?
*begins scribbling notes for a far future Athas that has been nagging in the back of his mind for some time*
Me! Me! Let it be me! :D
Me! Me! Let it be me!
:heehee
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Me! Me! Let it be me! :D
ok you have my vote
Originally posted by VasharanMonk
Actually there was one spelljamming ship located on the planet, forget the book it is located in. If i remember corectly it is possible to reach Athas with a spelljammer, but it would take way too long to get there, and all the routes have been lost. Athas was also mentioned in a old spelljammer book.
Hmmm, weird. Don't know what DS book that would be, but the SJ book was Complete Spacefairer's HB, which mentions that Athas is in a far off, lost sphere or otherwise inaccessable.
But I recall there was a rule on escaping to Dark-sun since Ravenloft is a metal rich world. All items made of metal had a 75% chance of transforming steel into Obsidian, Iron into stone and copper into bone once in Dark-Sun. Gold had to save or become ceramics.
Originally posted by Gr8Scott
In my campaign, I had a crashed Spelljammer that no longer flies being used as a Skimmer on the sea of silt. No longer able to enter space, yet usable for traversing the silt. I truly dont like the idea of spelljamming in and around the Athasian realm.
If you don't mind me asking, why don't you like SJ in & around Athas? And why do you use a Spelljammer for a silt skimmer?
Originally posted by Northen_Spur
Well there was also a chance to reach Dark-Sun Via Ravenloft, because if you found a tempoairy exit out of Ravenloft you never knew where it would take you.
But I recall there was a rule on escaping to Dark-sun since Ravenloft is a metal rich world. All items made of metal had a 75% chance of transforming steel into Obsidian, Iron into stone and copper into bone once in Dark-Sun. Gold had to save or become ceramics.
Interesting, I seem to recall hearing about such a rule (but not to that detail). That'd be a heck of means of keeping such stuff out ;) "Ooops, sorry captain, you know that shipment of iron swords we had? Well, it kinda turned to stone on us upon entering the sphere, and now all we got is a bunch of ballist..."
Originally posted by Northen_Spur
But I recall there was a rule on escaping to Dark-sun since Ravenloft is a metal rich world. All items made of metal had a 75% chance of transforming steel into Obsidian, Iron into stone and copper into bone once in Dark-Sun. Gold had to save or become ceramics.
I'm pretty familiar with most, if not all of the cross Ravenloft and DS stuff. Where are you getting this ruling from?
I'm curious and never heard of such one.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
If you don't mind me asking, why don't you like SJ in & around Athas? And why do you use a Spelljammer for a silt skimmer?
I call the "Silt Skimmer's" from the books Silt & sand Schooners and I have made Psionically levitated Ships Et al as my "TRUE Silt & Sand Skimmers" as they truly skim the surface and dont utilze wheels like the other "skimmers" do
and as for my use of a crashed spelljammer, well it explains how the Illithids got to Athas and are currently plotting an Athasian overthrow and enslavement of all life on the surface of Athas
The whole no metal thing is important to Athas BUT why is it there were metal swords of great craftsmanship during the Greenage? If seems odd to me. Did someone breed Rust Monsters which escaped and ate everything then died out from starvation?
In one of our games we had the ability to go back and forth. I was playing a demon, who went to the abyss when she died. Then she escaped to Toril (blah blah blah, culture shock, learning a valuable lesson, blah blah blah) Eventually we set up a permanent gate, but you had to go through the Abyss to do it.
I always liked buying gems on Athas for just a few gold pieces and then selling them in Toril.
Originally posted by Psionycx
It wasn't there originally because the "closed" nature of Athas is crucial to preserving the theme.
For example, what matters the scarcity of metal if some enterprising merchant from Oerth or Toril could fly in steel swords by the boatload?
Restricting access to Athas is needful if one wants to explain why some sorceror-king isn't pumping water in from other planes.
I agree with this theme as well, it was opened when Rajaat opened the portals to the Elemental plains to give the SK's their Power, it has Subsequently closed
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I'm pretty familiar with most, if not all of the cross Ravenloft and DS stuff. Where are you getting this ruling from?
I'm curious and never heard of such one.
I have it at home. I don't remember where it is or what source it came from.. I'll look it up when I get home. After my karate class and dinner. And wife time. And dog time.
God I hate being an adult sometimes.
No time for "fun".This is also the book that has Kalid -Ma as a woman (which I like, even if it is wrong)
Originally posted by erasmus1634
The info I am referring to is in "Dark Recesses- Peering into the depths of Madness." It is on pg 25 that deals with the transfer of metal between Ravenloft and Dark Sun.
This is also the book that has Kalid -Ma as a woman (which I like, even if it is wrong)
Ah, an old RL product I don't have.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Hey all,
just to satisfy a bit of curiosity since the subject comes up from time to time, but why is it that some people want to have spelljammers in the dark sun world?
I have no idea since the magic that powers them would go dead the second they entered Athas Realm which is a "Closed Sphere" and there is no direct link to "the void" (the source of magic), the "ether" (the normal form which magic enters a realm) or a buffer/intermediary like "the weave" (like in Forgotten Realms).
Not to mention that, much like Ravenloft, The Athas Realm isn't accessible because it is in "The black" which is best described as the Absence of existence or a very warped space where the Astral should be that doesn't seem to go anywhere....you know like if outside of the Planes of existence itself and has a very warped and endless "Grey" where the Ethereal Plane should be the "spacer" between the Astral and Athas Prime material Plane that doesn't seem to go anywhere either. Because of this "Astral warp" and "Grey warp" there is no way to reach Athas by Spelljammer through the path that a Spell Jammer would normally take along the Astral to Prime link known as the "Crystal Sphere" and "Crystal space" in the older texts though I don't remember the Spelljammer term for that sub-plane of interplainiar travel
Dragon magazine did mention an alternative called the "Crystal Gates" which the gods used to migrate creatures back and forth though a lot of the keys (that look like tuning forks) have been lost during the multiple meliniea and such gates are buried deep in the ground by now
The "Overpower(s)" of Athas closed off Athas Realm for a reason, though only only legends and half truths are common. There was once "gods" but they died in the gods wars and the "Life Masters" had gotten so dangerous without gods to monitor and control them that they could manage to suck the life out of the Monolith and it's Star to power their magic so what would stop them from destroying other Realms? And thus why the "Overpower(s) tossed Athas Realm into eternal "Darkness" and now, like Ravenloft, both entry and escape is virtually impossible.
As far as Cosmology, being able to access the Elemental Planes doesn't mean much as Each Prime Material Plane (Athas Realm in this case) has it's own Elemental planes, ethereal plane,shadow plane, positive material plane, negative material plane. The Astral Plane would normally connect this collection of Planes to the rest of existence but as far as Athas is concern a "Black" is all that is there that not even immortals (godlings) can get across without great effort and definitely never if whatever/whoever created the "Black" notices the attempt.
But then again Since 3rd edition Psionics is Magic based, and there is no "weave", or access to the "void" there would be no way that 3rd edition Psions could exist on what is basically a 2nd edition Psionics (True Psionics) world
Of course the 3rd edition Psions could draw their power from plants like the pseudo-mages they are, but then they all would be hypocrites in persecuting Preservers and Defilers.
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
I have no idea since the magic that powers them would go dead the second they entered Athas Realm which is a "Closed Sphere" and there is no direct link to "the void" (the source of magic), the "ether" (the normal form which magic enters a realm) or a buffer/intermediary like "the weave" (like in Forgotten Realms).
Not to mention that, much like Ravenloft, The Athas Realm isn't accessible because it is in "The black" which is best described as the Absence of existence or a very warped space where the Astral should be that doesn't seem to go anywhere....you know like if outside of the Planes of existence itself and has a very warped and endless "Grey" where the Ethereal Plane should be the "spacer" between the Astral and Athas Prime material Plane that doesn't seem to go anywhere either. Because of this "Astral warp" and "Grey warp" there is no way to reach Athas by Spelljammer through the path that a Spell Jammer would normally take along the Astral to Prime link known as the "Crystal Sphere" and "Crystal space" in the older texts though I don't remember the Spelljammer term for that sub-plane of interplainiar travel
Dragon magazine did mention an alternative called the "Crystal Gates" which the gods used to migrate creatures back and forth though a lot of the keys (that look like tuning forks) have been lost during the multiple meliniea and such gates are buried deep in the ground by now
The "Overpower(s)" of Athas closed off Athas Realm for a reason, though only only legends and half truths are common. There was once "gods" but they died in the gods wars and the "Life Masters" had gotten so dangerous without gods to monitor and control them that they could manage to suck the life out of the Monolith and it's Star to power their magic so what would stop them from destroying other Realms? And thus why the "Overpower(s) tossed Athas Realm into eternal "Darkness" and now, like Ravenloft, both entry and escape is virtually impossible.
As far as Cosmology, being able to access the Elemental Planes doesn't mean much as Each Prime Material Plane (Athas Realm in this case) has it's own Elemental planes, ethereal plane,shadow plane, positive material plane, negative material plane. The Astral Plane would normally connect this collection of Planes to the rest of existence but as far as Athas is concern a "Black" is all that is there that not even immortals (godlings) can get across without great effort and definitely never if whatever/whoever created the "Black" notices the attempt.
But then again Since 3rd edition Psionics is Magic based, and there is no "weave", or access to the "void" there would be no way that 3rd edition Psions could exist on what is basically a 2nd edition Psionics (True Psionics) world
Of course the 3rd edition Psions could draw their power from plants like the pseudo-mages they are, but then they all would be hypocrites in persecuting Preservers and Defilers.
You Cant
Get There
from Here
Barriers exist between Athas
and other places. In the
case of other planes of existence,
the Gray impedes
travel. In the case of other
places in the Prime Material
Plane, the crystal sphere
surrounding Athas is impenetrable.
Consequently, travel
via spelljamming is
impossible, and planar travel
is much more difficult.
When it comes to magical
means of planar travel,
the buffer formed by the
Gray imposes some restrictions.
Both wizard and
priest spells that provide
access to or contact with
other planes, from astral
spell to gate to planeshift,
require an additional check
to see if the energy of the
spell cuts through the barrier
formed by the Gray.
A priest reaching out to
his patron element doesn’t
need to make this check.
Other characters modify
the check by adding their
level to the number rolled.
For example, if a 9th-level
preserver casts contact
other plane, he adds +9 to
the check.
The same holds true for
those trying to contact or
reach Athas. The barrier
formed by the Gray
impedes travel in both
directions.
Outer/ Inner/
Astral Ethereal
Result Plane Plane
Lost 01-15 01-08
Failure 16-95 09-65
Success 96-100 66-100
A Lost result indicates
that the caster has been lost
in the Gray (if he was using
a travel spell) or that the
spell fails.
A Failure result indicates
that the spell is cast but
doesn’t work.
A Success result indicates
that the spell works.
So, if you go by canon material... it's just a waste of time to be considering it... still, i ran an interesting campain where two characters played slightly insane twin mages, one a necromancer the other a shadow mage, and they went around trying to enslave the escence of elemental priests to power a device they were building to dig a meta-physical 'tunnel' through the grey, to the outer planes, where they beleived the secrets to becoming the god(s) of the grey and shadow planes lay....
They figured as travel to the elemental planes was easier than the outerplanes, becuase the conduits 'cut' through the grey (from one of the diagrams in P&D) that they could harness this energy (evilly, of course) to make a portal... this idea was spurned by a vision from an evil outer-planar creature, and when they finally got there (they succeeded) it nabbed thier bodies and went back to athas, leaving them as incoporal spectre and shadow (respecitvley) on a cemetray outer plane, running for thier lives from the local inhabitants... sweet irony!
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Because they probably had it before, and people want to have some means of accessing Athas from beyond (besides the portal that Dregoth is sitting on, or the Elemental planes)
Originally posted by Jaanos
What i find amusing about spell-jammers / darksun is that in... i preservers and defilers, when it describes how the grey impedes travel to athas, it actually specifically states that spell jamming DOESN'T WORK.
So, if you go by canon material... it's just a waste of time to be considering it... still, i ran an interesting campain where two characters played slightly insane twin mages, one a necromancer the other a shadow mage, and they went around trying to enslave the escence of elemental priests to power a device they were building to dig a meta-physical 'tunnel' through the grey, to the outer planes, where they beleived the secrets to becoming the god(s) of the grey and shadow planes lay....
They figured as travel to the elemental planes was easier than the outerplanes, becuase the conduits 'cut' through the grey (from one of the diagrams in P&D) that they could harness this energy (evilly, of course) to make a portal... this idea was spurned by a vision from an evil outer-planar creature, and when they finally got there (they succeeded) it nabbed thier bodies and went back to athas, leaving them as incoporal spectre and shadow (respecitvley) on a cemetray outer plane, running for thier lives from the local inhabitants... sweet irony!
There are enough creatures in "The Grey" and "The Black" including "demonish" creatures so I might be so suspious as to think the "outerplaniar" that tricked them came from "the Black" and not from anywhere past "the Black" or "Grey" but used poweful Psionics to trick them that they went somewhere else :D
Yeah, the "Spelljamming plane" is sort of a layer of the Astral Plane and there is no form/layer of Astral Plane connected to Athas Realm because of "The Black" (where Astral should meet Athas) and "The Grey" (Where Ethereal should meet Astral) so Spelljamming is impossible :D
I got the Preservers and Defilers Supplement. One of my Favorites next to Dragon Kings and Mind Lords of the Last Sea.
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
Yeah, the "Spelljamming plane" is sort of a layer of the Astral Plane and there is no form/layer of Astral Plane connected to Athas Realm because of "The Black" (where Astral should meet Athas) and "The Grey" (Where Ethereal should meet Astral) so Spelljamming is impossible :D
Ok, question: where are you getting that? Spelljammer has never been part of the Astral. There have been similiar concepts in Dragon (Astral Jammers/Ships) but Spelljammer proper takes place in space, with some pseudo-magical changes to physics (to make it playable). The planes never entered into the equation (actually, SJ products pretty much ignored the planes, other than mentioning it's impossible to reach them from the Flow).Originally posted by Nightdruid
Yeah,
A little rusty, but the the space that Spelljamming took place in was called "the Flow"? a sorta Pseudo reality that needs the Astral to connect to a "Open System" to SpellJam there. If the Astral doesn't touch it the "flow" doesn't go there.
And again there is no external Magic Source either so the Spell Jammer craft would not work in the Grey, Black, or Athas Realm as Spelljammers are "standard Magic" Craft.
And short of being a Preserver/Defiler once in the Athas Realm a Mage is cut off from the "weave"/Ether" of Standard magic casting and a Priest is cut off from his/her God and the ability to get spells prayed for answered.
The Mage would get a dull headache as all of Athas Realm, the Black, and the Grey is a huge "Null Magic Area" to standard Mages and Priests that have interactive godlings will feel empty/hallow/alone and unable to feel their "god's Love" and spells of divine intervention will not work as the godlings must channel the power into their servants during spell casting using the "interactive link".
There is nothing of worth to a "Spelljamming Culture" on the desolate wasteland called Athas and "The Black" and "The Grey" will test and even take the lives of godlings that try to pass through it....a terrible cursed place that not even the gods want to bother with nor would if they could....so why would anyone want to go There?
Athas is another "Ravenloft environment"...only difference is there doesn't seem to be any "powers" taking pleasure in torturing the "trapped Realm". Cast into the Darkness of the "non-Astral" instead of the "Deep Ethereal"
Maybe an Overgod's or Ubergod's doing cause of the Lifemaster's and/or the "Dragons"? (Wonder cause it is said even "gods" are susceptible to "Black's" and "Grey's" confusing/crippling effects....much like the Overgod created "Planar rifts" explained in the AD&D "Immortal Campaigns" to keep unwanted godlings out of their Governed Realms, or even keeping them exclusively within it :D )
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
Yeah,
A little rusty, but the the space that Spelljamming took place in was called "the Flow"? a sorta Pseudo reality that needs the Astral to connect to a "Open System" to SpellJam there. If the Astral doesn't touch it the "flow" doesn't go there.
And again there is no external Magic Source either so the Spell Jammer craft would not work in the Grey, Black, or Athas Realm as Spelljammers are "standard Magic" Craft.
Wwwwaaaayyyy off base there, but I can understand the confusion.
Spelljammer 101
In SJ, all solar systems are surrounded by "crystal spheres", solid spheres of crystal. It follows the celestial model dreamed up by ancient greeks & remained the prevailing belief until modern times. Passage through the sphere leads to the Phlogiston (Flow). Basically, think of this as hyperspace. You use it to get to other spheres (say, from FR to DL). An unusual quark of this place is that it has absolutely no connections to any other planes; you cannot reach the astral from the Flow.
Spelljammer helms are a bit strange. They're quasi artifacts, but don't run on any sort of planar magic (as witnessed by the fact that they work in the Flow). They don't even truly drain spells (a common misconception); they just make it impossible for a caster to cast spells for 24 hours if he sits in one. Others use alternate power sources; lifejammers drain life, not unlike defiling. So, so long as a caster has spell slots, he can use helms even if he couldn't cast spells.
As far as a SJ culture in Athasspace, , they could very well be trapped like the rest of Athas, but for whatever reason don't want to settle on the desert planet.
Anyways, the whole point is that I noticed several people saying "I added a little SJ to DS", and I was asking why. I wanted to know what the attraction was, to get a feel for what people outside standard SJ circles liked about SJ
Therefore, the only way Athas could be discovered would be a freak accident of somekind(Stellar Winds blow a Spelljammer ship of coarse in the Flow etc).
Even then, I doubt cargo hauling stuff to Athas would be profitable, as the Spelljamming crew lacks maps to get them back to Known space, it would kind of be like a "Star Trek Voyager" or "Battlestar Galactica" scenerio, where the crew is lost in wildspace, and is forced to find a way home.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
That's what I thought, but there does seem to be some interest in having SJ & DS mixed; just wondering why that is
I dunno about that, as far as I can see, it's more a case of DS being appealing to SJ players. SJ coming to Athas ruins the feel of DS, but if you're playing SJ that doesn't matter, and Athas is a fun world to go to, as it has a good oppurtunity to really have an impact (bringing water/steel to the world as you said, in a trading, Elite style campaign) and lots of cool resources (Life-shaped artifacts, psionic secrets, new types of magic, a bunch of 10th level spells and lots of cool races- if you go for slavery) of course all that stuff is hard to get at, but if can control the supply of metal and water, you should be able to get it. In fact, Athas is an ideal destination for trading spelljammers. But I agree that it ruins the DS campaign, ut there are other options. Of course, it's virtually impossible, but hey, nothing worth doing is easy.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering if it would be possible to create a Dark-Sun themed sphere to satisfy the desire for DS-SJ; I noticed on another thread that Rajaat visited other worlds; perhaps he visited (and largely destroyed) another sphere, the reminants of which resemble Dark Sun in many ways.
I don't understand: why? What difference doed it make if some people totally mess up Athas in their campaign, it won't affect canon. Any replica would ltimately seem a poorer cousin, and have much less depth. It would be easier to set up a chain of events that opened up Athas again- especially if they were put in motion by the PC's, giving them exclusive trading rights...
Originally posted by leopardmessiah
I dunno about that, as far as I can see, it's more a case of DS being appealing to SJ players.
Seems to be both. Seen several cases of SJ guys using DS as a trade destination, and several cases of DS guys taken elements out of SJ and adding them to their game (the only one that sticks out atm is the nautiloid being used as a silk skimmer
)
I don't understand: why? What difference doed it make if some people totally mess up Athas in their campaign, it won't affect canon. Any replica would ltimately seem a poorer cousin, and have much less depth. It would be easier to set up a chain of events that opened up Athas again- especially if they were put in motion by the PC's, giving them exclusive trading rights...
Thought it would be easier and less destructive, but it certainly seems the preference is for athas itself to be the center of the action...go figure ;)
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Wwwwaaaayyyy off base there, but I can understand the confusion.
Spelljammer 101
In SJ, all solar systems are surrounded by "crystal spheres", solid spheres of crystal. It follows the celestial model dreamed up by ancient greeks & remained the prevailing belief until modern times. Passage through the sphere leads to the Phlogiston (Flow). Basically, think of this as hyperspace. You use it to get to other spheres (say, from FR to DL). An unusual quark of this place is that it has absolutely no connections to any other planes; you cannot reach the astral from the Flow.
Spelljammer helms are a bit strange. They're quasi artifacts, but don't run on any sort of planar magic (as witnessed by the fact that they work in the Flow). They don't even truly drain spells (a common misconception); they just make it impossible for a caster to cast spells for 24 hours if he sits in one. Others use alternate power sources; lifejammers drain life, not unlike defiling. So, so long as a caster has spell slots, he can use helms even if he couldn't cast spells.
As far as a SJ culture in Athasspace, , they could very well be trapped like the rest of Athas, but for whatever reason don't want to settle on the desert planet.
Anyways, the whole point is that I noticed several people saying "I added a little SJ to DS", and I was asking why. I wanted to know what the attraction was, to get a feel for what people outside standard SJ circles liked about SJ
Those are the words !!!!
"Hyper-Astral"(Hyper Space/Sidespace/ The Flow) and the "Crystal Spheres" :D
The "Crystal Gates" the gods used for shuffling creatures between the Realms is made of the same stuff that surround the Solar Systems and the "Phlogiston" that the gate use is called "the land Beyond". This is in Role Aids 721
And, yes, you are right the "Side space"/Hyper space/The Flow/Hyper-Astral is not really a "plane" in itself but a "Pseudo-reality" that Spelljammers can access.
Being submerged in "The Black" and " the Grey" Athas Realm doesn't have a "Crystal Sphere" as that Pseudo-reality is still dependent on not being in the middle of nowhere....which Athas Realm is.
Come on, if divine magic and gods can get lost in the stuff (Grey/black) a mere mortal's Spelljammer doesn't stand a Chance.
Oh and there are Spelljammers as small as 300 feet across and as big as a few miles across orbiting high above Athas considered "abandoned" but in truth small amounts of the "Lifemasters" descendent's (Halflings) do still live in them but they have no clue how to work the thing and they are pretty much on "auto-pilot" guarding Athas (They are all battle cruisers/battleships and such).
Yep. the ancient "Lifemasters" of Athas was a Spelljamming culture and Athas was once easily accessible before the curse of the "Black" and "Grey" and the gods "abandoned" Athas. (don't remember the supplement off hand, sorry)
If by chance a Spelljammer does, by some miracle, make it into Athas Realm past the "Black" and "Grey" 1d10 of these automated defenders will will engage the unlucky Spelljammer to the death with automated weapon systems.
(If the Preservers and Defilers supplement saying "No Spelljamming allowed" wasn't enough of a warning). People who don't know about the ancient culture of Halflings on Athas once being Space Farriers and "Spelljammers" and thus the Danger to Spelljammers above Athas aren't as well versed in Athas Realm Lore and mechanics as they should be
It has been speculated "by Scholars" that the "Black" and "Grey" was more to contain the technology and magic the "Lifemasters" possessed from getting out of the Realm and the reasons why it is hard even for gods to try across the "Black" and "Grey" is a god of another Realm could easily give his/her followers a upper hand by learning the secrets of the "Lifemasters"
The Athas "Lifemasters" were in fact more dangerous than the "Netherese Empire" of ancient Toril....I mean they Drained life out of the Monolith (the Planet) and the Sun to power their technology and Magic so just imagine what they could do if they got their clutches on a god or another world and it's sun :OMG!
And all the battle ready Spelljammers over Athas may have been to fight the likes of the Illithid but after they were finished with their Sun and their Planet such abilities might have allowed them to be like a "Locust Culture" that would just simply start conquesting a new world.
In fact, again,"the Scholars" were speculating that that Athas wasn't the "Lifemasters" native world and they in fact Migrated to Athas via Spelljamming and only the Tri-Kreen may be truly Native if not genetic experiments much like the Humans, dwarfs, giants, and other engineered lifeforms on Athas
Yep, Halfling "Lifemasters" was the "Creator Race" of Athas and had had powers to chalange even the gods (Just look at the ancient texts that make Dragons and Avangions...where do you think they come from if not the "Lifemasters" understanding of life energy manipulation and life magic?)
your idea is quite interesting although it wouldn't fit with my version of Athas since the fact that the Rhulisti were able to manipulate the very building block of life on Athas was because of the presence of Mindë(my own theory on the essence of life on Athas.) which is not present in any other world:that I know of in D&d settings,and the fact that those same halfling could use the sun as power source also has a link with Mindë but this knowledge is lost even to the Rhul-thaun of today.
But again, I think your idea is as good as any(and more then some
) but personnally I'd rather like to beleive that the Rhulisti were born on Athas rather than being outsiders on a quest.PS: if you'd like to read my Theory on Mindë I have posted a thread a few weeks agohere
People who don't know about the ancient culture of Halflings on Athas once being Space Farriers and "Spelljammers" and thus the Danger to Spelljammers above Athas aren't as well versed in Athas Realm Lore and mechanics as they should be
Space farriers??? Are you sure? A farrier is someone who changes horseshoes for a living...
(Mind you, I suppose that some of the larger hamsters might need... actually no, no I'm not going there...)
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
to The WarOverlord
your idea is quite interesting although it wouldn't fit with my version of Athas since the fact that the Rhulisti were able to manipulate the very building block of life on Athas was because of the presence of Mindë(my own theory on the essence of life on Athas.) which is not present in any other world:that I know of in D&d settings,and the fact that those same halfling could use the sun as power source also has a link with Mindë but this knowledge is lost even to the Rhul-thaun of today.
But again, I think your idea is as good as any(and more then some
PS: if you'd like to read my Theory on Mindë I have posted a thread a few weeks agohere
Ideas?
What I have said is from the Multitude of Official Dark Sun Supplements
I only got "Preservers and Defilers", "The Veiled Alliance", "Dragon Kings", "Mind Lords of the Last Sea" on hand in my collection though as I wasn't to interested in Ancient Athas Spelljamming days, but it's out there. :D
This is why "Defilers and Preservers" have to emphases that Spelljamming to/from Athas is "impossible" now
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
What I have said is from the Multitude of Officaial Dark Sun Supplements
No it isn't.
At least, not the part about the horseshoes at any rate.:P
Originally posted by Kamelion
Space farriers??? Are you sure? A farrier is someone who changes horseshoes for a living...
(Mind you, I suppose that some of the larger hamsters might need... actually no, no I'm not going there...)
Typo :D
But you aren't talking of Miniature Giant Space Hamsters are you? :D
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
But you aren't talking of Miniature Giant Space Hamsters are you? :D
Umm, nope. Not me. Not unless I want another lightning bolt, that is...
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
Being submerged in "The Black" and " the Grey" Athas Realm doesn't have a "Crystal Sphere" as that Pseudo-reality is still dependent on not being in the middle of nowhere....which Athas Realm is.
Long post, not going to try to parse everything, just a few points. Feel like we're talking two completely seperate languages, because you're using terms I've never encountered before in the context of SJ or DS.
Does the black *physicially* surround Athas, or does it replace the ethereal/astral planes of Athas? As I understand it, the black/gray are planes and not directly on the material plane (thus would really have no impact on spelljammers). And if the black did surround athas, how does the planet get light from the sun/stars? ;)
The halfling defense fleet does indeed indicate that Athas is in a spelljammer universe. Getting past them seems a chore for adventurers...;) Some players would simply see all those obsticles as a challenge :D
Not to mention that he didn't do his homework very well.
SJ needs to stay away from Athas IMO, the two shouldn't be intermingled like that.
Bout the only campaign world out there that should be intertwined with Athas IMO is RL, since it has a way of entering all worlds anyways.
No offense, I like SJ, but damn that's treading on treacherous ground, heh.
nik
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
It would have to be an SJ accessory, since no DS accessory goes into that much detail about it.
Certainly no SJ accessory (I have them all). The *only* SJ product that mentions Athas at all is Complete Spacefairer's HB, two paragraphs worth. First paragraph states that it is unknown how to get to Athas, and second paragraphs states that it is generally believed that Athas is unaware of Spelljamming (but such knowledge may lay in some sorcerer-king's library).
I don't recall any DS accessory going into that much detail about SJ that overwarlord is going into.
I could be mistaken about this, and I doubt it since I have everything that was pubished for DS minus a polyhedron or two.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Can't be a DS accessory then.
I don't recall any DS accessory going into that much detail about SJ that overwarlord is going into.
I could be mistaken about this, and I doubt it since I have everything that was pubished for DS minus a polyhedron or two.
He mentioned Preservers & Defilers. The info seems very odd to me; I may not own much DS, but I would think I would've heard of a DS product with that much SJ info. Left me scratching my head.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Sounds like to me, that whatever author did the accessory on the lifemasters in spelljammers was trying *real hard* to get SJ and DS to fit together.
Not to mention that he didn't do his homework very well.
SJ needs to stay away from Athas IMO, the two shouldn't be intermingled like that.
Bout the only campaign world out there that should be intertwined with Athas IMO is RL, since it has a way of entering all worlds anyways.
No offense, I like SJ, but damn that's treading on treacherous ground, heh.
Yesssss I agree. And by the way where is it mentionned (in Athas's official material(not SJ product) that the Rhulisti were once spelljammers??
Originally posted by Cap'n Nick
which supplements mention a halfling space defense fleet? i have all dark sun products, and don't recall ever coming across such a thing. is it a spelljammer thingy? lifemasters? i know about the rhulisti, but is there some SJ thing somewhere i ought to look at?
nik
I second that .... me neither. I even have The Windriders of the Jagged cliffs (you know, the official Rhulisti/rhulthaun acc. book) and there is nothing there about spelljamming halfling.
An interesting scenerio would be that the halflings of Athas have subdued "racial memories" of the bygone days of their spelljammer ancestors, and only need a certain preprogramed condition to bring those memories to the surface
For instance, lets suppose theres a gigantic obsidian spire somewhere buried beneath the desert sands on Athas, and one day, some wandering traveler discovers it, and being a Defiler, checks the strange black point sticking out of the sand for magic. Immediately, the entire spire emerges from the ground, and activates a magical becon which causes every Halfling on Athas to remember everything their ancestors knew(Technology and Magic included).
You need only connect the dots to find out how such a scenerio would effect the Spelljammer universe.
It seems that is what Waroverlord said is true
Not to sure here, but I thought I had all the role aids books that had been printed, but I don't recall ever hearing about one that delt with spelljamming. I'd love to know the title or the product number (721?, that's the Dragon supplement set).
It seems that is what Waroverlord said is true
No it doesn't.
War Captain's companion I believe does have a sidebar, perhaps two, devoted to Darkspace or AthasSpace, where most of the above info comes from.
The "Darkspace" sidebar (War Captain's Companion Bk 1, p78) doesn't refer to Athas. It refers to a sphere of undead that features in SJA3 Crystal Spheres adventure.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Long post, not going to try to parse everything, just a few points. Feel like we're talking two completely seperate languages, because you're using terms I've never encountered before in the context of SJ or DS.
Does the black *physicially* surround Athas, or does it replace the ethereal/astral planes of Athas? As I understand it, the black/gray are planes and not directly on the material plane (thus would really have no impact on spelljammers). And if the black did surround athas, how does the planet get light from the sun/stars? ;)
The halfling defense fleet does indeed indicate that Athas is in a spelljammer universe. Getting past them seems a chore for adventurers...;) Some players would simply see all those obsticles as a challenge :D
The best way to describe it is the "powers that be" threw Athas Realm into "nothingness" outside of existence so the "Black" and "Grey" is where connections to the Astral and other planes used to be.
Thus Athas is in it's own "pocket existence" like Ravenloft .
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Spelljammer itself (War Captain's companion I believe) does have a sidebar, perhaps two, devoted to Darkspace or AthasSpace, where most of the above info comes from.
That'd be Complete Spacefairer's HB. It devotes exactly 2 paragraphs to the subject (1: the way to Athas is lost and 2: the secrets of SJ may be buried somewhere in Athas).
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
The best way to describe it is the "powers that be" threw Athas Realm into "nothingness" outside of existence so the "Black" and "Grey" is where connections to the Astral and other planes used to be.
Thus Athas is in it's own "pocket existence" like Ravenloft .
Where, exactly, are you getting this? I may not own most DS products, but I've been browsing DS boards for many years, and I have heard none of this before. And even the other DS fans seem confused by your assertions. Much of this sounds like a personal DM's game rather than DS canon.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Thanks for clearing that up Nightdruid.
Sure, np
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Where, exactly, are you getting this? I may not own most DS products, but I've been browsing DS boards for many years, and I have heard none of this before. And even the other DS fans seem confused by your assertions. Much of this sounds like a personal DM's game rather than DS canon.
I honestly can't remember, but I used to visit used book stores almost religiously and I do remember reading the Blue Age thing and the Curse on Athas and the abandoning of Athas by the gods from among the books I scoured through.
Can you at least confirm a Athas "Underdark" and underground Sea where a lot of Green Age Creatures can still be found, saved from the Ravages of RRajatt's Champions?. I remember reading about that somewhere in a book as well
I personally do Own
1) Mind Lords of the last Sea
2) Veiled Alliance
3) Preservers and Defilers
4) Dragon Kings
As far as the DM game I can say no as I never played a Pen and Paper game in my life and had no internet service at the time I came across the resources/supplements
I started researching Dark Sun stuff in a bookstore I knew that had D&D stuff after coming Buying the Gold Box Series games for my computer and playing Dark Sun:Crimson Sands and Dark Sun:Wake of the Ravager cause I wanted to learn more about the game I was playing. (yes, I know D&D only from PC games, very first one Played was "Eye of the Beholder")
Even Now in Playing Neverwinter Nights I bought "The Silver Marches" for the SOU expansion, "Drittz Guide to the Underdark" for the HOtU Expansion and was able to look up Waterdeep in the "Forgotten Realms Atlas" and the 3rd ed Forgotten Realms Campaign Seating and 2nd ed Forgotten Realms Adventures.
But I am not limited only to games, cause I bought "Middle Earth Atlas" after seeing the First "Lord of the Rings" directed by Peter Jackson
Anyways, the Darksun game was so interesting I actually bought those supplements cause they were like $2 each, but the resources talking about Blue Age Athas, god wars, Spelljamming Days, and such were much much more expensive so like a "Scrooge" I only read them and didn't buy them
I also am Clueless of the of the "Spelljammer" campaign setting (is there one?) other than them being spaceships that are powered by Magic that travel via pseudo-reality and the Ancient Halflings of Athas had such magic/technology and ability to Conquer life and worlds and Athas was once accessible by Spelljamming long in the past before the "Curse" Athas and the "abandonment of Athas by the gods" and all that is left is the Savage Halflings on the planet and the occasional civil colony on the Spelljammers on "auto-pilot" over Athas (And sorry, I can't remember which book this would have been read out of )
DM Game?
Would that be like how people are trying to use 3rd Eddition Psionics (little more than a "Mentalist" specialist mage) in a 2nd eddition Psionics (Real Mind over matter) Campaign World?
Dark Sun was designed as a "safe place" to keep and use "scary" 2nd Psionics...wasn't it?
Isn't 3rd addition Psionics little more than another form of Magic Use?
Where would the power source be in a closed Realm with no magical source via the Ether/Weave?
If they, the now magical Psionist using 3rd ed rules, draw life like a preserver/defiler to power their Psionics wouldn't everyone be hypocrites for hating Magic users?
To me trying to convert a 2nd eddition Psionics Campaign World into excepting 3rd eddtion seems.....silly as the "Grey" and "Black" disapearing any time soon.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
:headexplo
head...hurts...make...it...stop...
This is *so* getting away from the original intent of the thread...
Originally posted by Nightdruid
head...hurts...make...it...stop...
This is *so* getting away from the original intent of the thread...
Yeah, how bout those space hamsters?
Or better yet, that undead Tarrasque?
Ooh, ooh dwelfs, don't forget dwelfs!
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
I honestly can't remember, but I used to visit used book stores almost religiously and I do remember reading the Blue Age thing and the Curse on Athas and the abandoning of Athas by the gods from among the books I scoured through.
I have just one thing to say.... other then what Nytcrawlr said/pictured.... smileyed
What ever or where ever you read what you imply previously, it wasn't official at all(not DS speaking anyway.) you can be sure of that.
Can you at least confirm a Athas "Underdark" and underground Sea where a lot of Green Age Creatures can still be found, saved from the Ravages of RRajatt's Champions?. I remember reading about that somewhere in a book as well
I'd like *that* to become an official supplement indeed. (maybe not the green age creature unless they have adapted to a totally new environement. i.e panthers became displacer beast etc.
Nothing personnal but you might want to be able to verify(have proof) of what you imply in the futur(we're a hard bunch sometimes
and also most important... KNOW WHAT THE HECK YOUR TALKING ABOUT!!(nope its not shouting its free speech in strong wisper Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Yeah, how bout those space hamsters?
Or better yet, that undead Tarrasque?
Ooh, ooh dwelfs, don't forget dwelfs!
Lol...space hamsters are so great (i can't read the MC entry without hurting myself laughing :D ) Undead Tarrasque? Only if you slap 5 templates on it too...;)
Anyways, you kinda captured some of my thoughts with that earlier post (didn't mean to imply *you* made my head hurt...;) )
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
KNOW WHAT THE HECK YOUR TALKING ABOUT!!(nope its not shouting its free speech in strong wisper
Can I use that in that exact format?
I want to be able to use that...
hehehehe
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Lol...space hamsters are so great (i can't read the MC entry without hurting myself laughing :D ) Undead Tarrasque? Only if you slap 5 templates on it too...;)
Not to be a total moron, but where in the H E DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS (more free speech in strong whisper) is the MC entry for the space hamster.
Didn't think there was one and it was just some sort of joke, lol, even funnier that there is indeed one, LMAO!
Anyways, you kinda captured some of my thoughts with that earlier post (didn't mean to imply *you* made my head hurt...;) )
Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking that at all, heh.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Not to be a total moron, but where in the H E DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS (more free speech in strong whisper) is the MC entry for the space hamster.
Didn't think there was one and it was just some sort of joke, lol, even funnier that there is indeed one, LMAO!
Spelljammer MC 7, Hamster, Giant Space. Here's my favorite entry:
Fire Breathing, Phase Doppleganger Giant Space Hamster: "We completely fail to see why everyone is so upset, especially since biology is such an inexact science and for every step we take forward there must be two steps backwards but anyways we said we were sorry and we'd like our funding back so we can pay our bail and go home".
That cracks me up every time :D
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking that at all, heh.
You don't think dwelfs are a good idea, eh? Personally, I think dwelfs are the most brilliant creation of any human of all time. They are so great that they transcend known wordage and I must create a new word to describe them:
Scrumptulescent.
That's a dwelf in a nutshell.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
So...
You don't think dwelfs are a good idea, eh? Personally, I think dwelfs are the most brilliant creation of any human of all time. They are so great that they transcend known wordage and I must create a new word to describe them:
Scrumptulescent.
That's a dwelf in a nutshell.
No, dwelfs are kwel...i mean, pointed ears, big beards, totally disproportioned bodies, what's not to love ? :DOriginally posted by Nightdruid
Stuck up and gruff all at the same time, I love it!
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Can I use that in that exact format?
I want to be able to use that...
hehehehe
be my guess.
But not to often( I'd like to use it again myself sometime) :DI honestly can't remember, but I used to visit used book stores almost religiously and I do remember reading the Blue Age thing and the Curse on Athas and the abandoning of Athas by the gods from among the books I scoured through.
Heh, don't fret it much.
I used to collect a lot of the Mayfair Game's RoleAids supplements (at the time, they were a little left field in an industry that didn't stray too far from conter) so, I wasn't simply demanding you to quote your sources as much as I was interested in the prospect of filling my collection. You comment:
This is in Role Aids 721
is what made me think that Mayfair Games had some book in their RoleAids line that delt with Spelljammer material. No biggie.
Anyhow, hamsters aside (but never for very long), Jihun does hit a nail on the head. Not to disuade you from future posting or from this community, but you have to understand that we're a bunch of sociopathic fanboys who would sooner stab someone in the face than find out that we didn't know something about Dark Sun. We're all a pretty well read group with DS, some of us even going out of our way to complete our DS library of material, using money that could have been much better spent on things like rent and utility bills. Others go on for several days without food or sleep, simply reading and digesting those books until blood drips from our eyes. So, when your citing material in your posts that none of us have heard about, you have to take at least a small amount (or rather, variable amount) of criticism with it. Anyhow, hope that doesn't disuade you from sticking around.
Cheers!
Wow, that's the third time I've talked about stabing someone in the face . . . I need help. Maybe I'll feel better after I let my knife meet some random person's forehead . . .
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Wow, that's the third time I've talked about stabing someone in the face . . . I need help. Maybe I'll feel better after I let my knife meet some random person's forehead . . .
I hear Beck is around your neck of the woods this time of year....damn did I say that out loud?
Wow, that's the third time I've talked about stabing someone in the face . . . I need help. Maybe I'll feel better after I let my knife meet some random person's forehead . .
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's #4, Mach :D But, hey, stab away - it's quality not quantity, after all...
Nothing personnal but you might want to be able to verify(have proof) of what you imply in the future(we're a hard bunch sometimes
I don't doubt that I saw what I saw.
Proof?
The Used Book store I used to visit is 400 miles away, so what am I supposed to do?
What the heck I am talking about?
Athas Realm, thats what.
Everyone saying they don't know what the heck I am talking about haven't officially said they got every Athas/Darksun supplant there ever was, and I have admitted while i read a lot of them I only have the ones that was closer to my interest for the Dark Sun PC Game.
Official?
From the mustiness of most of the books, as well as the copyright dates my guess is that the company that used to produce the Darksun stuff went the way of the Dodo as visits to Boarders and Waldens show no new Darksun stuff and the hosts of this board "resurected" mostly Forgotten Realms stuff
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
I don't doubt that I saw what I saw.
Sure you weren't eating too much cotton candy?
Athas Realm, thats what.
Again, never heard of it.
Everyone saying they don't know what the heck I am talking about haven't officially said they got every Athas/Darksun supplant there ever was, and I have admitted while i read a lot of them I only have the ones that was closer to my interest for the Dark Sun PC Game.
Uh, I can attest to owning everything that is official for Dark Sun minus a polyhedron or two and possibly a Dragon, everything else that was published I own, multiple copies of most of it no less.
No where, and I do mean *no where* have I read such things.
Either you found some third party thing that felt the need to bridge SJ and Dark Sun together, or you have eaten too much cotton candy.
Have some more while you are at it. :D
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
Everyone saying they don't know what the heck I am talking about haven't officially said they got every Athas/Darksun supplant there ever was, and I have admitted while i read a lot of them I only have the ones that was closer to my interest for the Dark Sun PC Game.
OK, let me officially say that then. I have them all and have no clue whatsoever what you're on about. No offense - I just don't. The ideas are kinda cool, actually, if you're going to go ahead and merge SJ and DS but they are about as official as most of those very nice dvds I got on my last trip to Koh Samui
What's happened is that he's taken a large number of completely unrelated products and hobbled them together as DS canon. For example, his halfling defense fleet sounds suspeciously like the Evermeet entry from War Captain's Compendium (SJ). In it, any non-elf that approaches Evermeet via a spelljammer is intercepted by 1d10 elven armada (an armada is a 300-foot long elven battleship shaped like a butterfly & is a living plant ship). Halflings using devices they no longer can build sound a lot like its from Windriders of the Jagged Cliff (I believe I just saw such a point on this very board a few days ago; please correct me if I'm mistaken). I suspect that if you look outside DS material, his points may pop up as totally unrelated things in other settings.
Just sounded like he was spouting off some official accessory or two from DS or SJ, hehe.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Well no wonder.
Just sounded like he was spouting off some official accessory or two from DS or SJ, hehe.
Well, in a way he was...kinda...I could get some real interesting results if I mixed up things from various settings into one setting
We're still going on about this? NO DARK SUN SPELLJAMMING. AT ALL. EVER, EVER, EVER. I like Spelljammer and Darksun, but I also like sex and rockclimbing. Just because both exist doesn't mean they should be combined.
*chomps angrilly on some cotton candy.
*and whatever the hell this thing is:
:inlove:
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I like Spelljammer and Darksun, but I also like sex and rockclimbing. Just because both exist doesn't mean they should be combined.
Actually......nevermind.
I'll just go on the record that I like both two, hehe.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
We're still going on about this? NO DARK SUN SPELLJAMMING. AT ALL. EVER, EVER, EVER. I like Spelljammer and Darksun, but I also like sex and rockclimbing. Just because both exist doesn't mean they should be combined.
*chomps angrilly on some cotton candy.
*and whatever the hell this thing is:
:inlove:
That sounds like a personal challenge to me...:D
In the manual of the planes its mentioned that the plane of shadow was an artificial demiplane of epic scope. it also mentioned that at its heart there exist the shinig citadel however a religious order sucked the life out of the rest of the plane to power the citidel and that anyone who has ever serached for it has never returned. Now just for fun
Assume this is a really really old legend
assume that some details are mixed up
Now suppose that the shadow plane was once a material plane in its own right i mean after all it connects the alternate material planes to the main material plane whichever one your in.
Assume that the plane was created to provide the connections and form a linchpin to hold the multiverses together to form an omniverse.
Assume the order is really a description of the lifeshapers and the citidel was athas.
If all this is true then somewere deep within the shadow plane there is a small glimmer of light that leads to athas. however because of the great distance involved in walking through the shadows of an infinate number of material planes no one has ever successfully and purposely made it. also on could say that planar geometries ensure that althas is nigh inescapable (like a black hole or better yet a neutron star escapable but very very unlikely)
of course i'm biased because i think athas should be the center of everything
But if this is true one could say that gods can't reach because they can't travel that far from thier worshipers and the individual planes on althas are a result of the "Omniverse" atempting to stop the power drain and severing portions of the other planes and trying to minimize the leak so to say.
Thats just my pet way of keeping athas in 3e somewere. i don't want to lose it.
Originally posted by Lokiyn
i would have to disagree with you the. the cosmologies are connected because as it states in the manual of the planes the plane of shadows by default connects alternate realities together and may be used to travel between them although its very dangerous.
Alternate realities doesn't neccessarily mean "every campaign world in existence" though.
I think they left that open like that for individual DMs to decide how it worked in their worlds.
Originally posted by Lokiyn
i would have to disagree with you the. the cosmologies are connected because as it states in the manual of the planes the plane of shadows by default connects alternate realities together and may be used to travel between them although its very dangerous.
Yes, and if you look at the cosmology of forgotten realms then compare it to the cosmology presented in the manual of the planes, and compare those both to the cosmology presented in the dragonlance campaign setting, you'll see that they are mutually exclusive. The plane of shadows connection they mention there is a reference to the Urban Arcana material for d20 Modern.
all the different worlds have their own separate cosmologies - they don't connect.
Originally posted by Kamelion
OK, let me officially say that then. I have them all and have no clue whatsoever what you're on about. No offense - I just don't. The ideas are kinda cool, actually, if you're going to go ahead and merge SJ and DS but they are about as official as most of those very nice dvds I got on my last trip to Koh Samui
Or trying to use 3rd Eddition Psionics or 3.5 D&D rules in a 2nd eddition Psionics 2nd eddition D&D Campaign World?
No.
All I remember is they were faded, they were musty, they were kind of thin and they were made by a company called TSR in the late 80's to early 90's and I do regret not snagging them when I saw them, but I used to be at that used book store almost every day so..
More excerpts from my "steal trap mind"
The "Lifemasters" were advanced beings that Halfings are "lessor" clones of and they also engineered Humans, Dwarfs, Giants, Elves, etc as "workers" (slaves) from the stock Halflings for special jobs and such.
The "Lifemasters" knowledge of Lifemagic and Metabolic infusion in texts is what the Preservers use to turn themselves into Avangions and Defilers use yo make themselves Dragons. They dig the ancient ruins to find these texts and Rajjat was the first to find these texts (he did not write them nor did he "invent" Preservesm/Defilerism Lifemagic).
Originally posted by Nightdruid
I think I've figured out WarOverlord's arguement.
What's happened is that he's taken a large number of completely unrelated products and hobbled them together as DS canon. For example, his halfling defense fleet sounds suspeciously like the Evermeet entry from War Captain's Compendium (SJ). In it, any non-elf that approaches Evermeet via a spelljammer is intercepted by 1d10 elven armada (an armada is a 300-foot long elven battleship shaped like a butterfly & is a living plant ship). Halflings using devices they no longer can build sound a lot like its from Windriders of the Jagged Cliff (I believe I just saw such a point on this very board a few days ago; please correct me if I'm mistaken). I suspect that if you look outside DS material, his points may pop up as totally unrelated things in other settings.
Thanks for thinking I have an imagination :D
Yeah, now I am the one that has no idea what somebody is talking about, but the living plant ships do sound cool :D
The books were musty, faded, thin and made by a company called TSR in the mid 80's to early nineties if that helps in determining if the books I read about the "Lifemasters" was "offical"
Halflings are "inferior" clones of the "Lifemasters not their actual desendents and the "Lifemasters" on the Spelljamers big enough to hold a colony live in the habbitat and might wonder the ship but they can't run the thing.
Thier (THe "Lifemasters" defendents) Pale skin, blue eyes, and White Hair will even make a modern Halfling wonder what they are. (latent Psionic ability, no skill in Lifemagic).
They infact bred another creatures closer to their likeness called Pyreen. (whatever those are
)The books were musty, faded, thin and made by a company called TSR in the mid 80's to early nineties if that helps in determining if the books I read about the "Lifemasters" was "offical"
They were not made by TSR and they are not official - even assuming that they are products of anything other than your highly rich but clearly delusional imagination
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
Thanks for thinking I have an imagination :D
They infact bred another creatures closer to their likeness called Pyreen. (whatever those are
Please tell me I'll eventually wake up from this alternate Athas world!!!!!
TheWarOverlord. Have you ever read any official DS box set campaing?? you'd know exactly who the Pyreens are.
And yess you do have a lot of imagination. I'll congratulate you for that in deed.
Originally posted by Lokiyn
well i think it would be more fair to say that to don't have direct connections however its is dnd default to have the shadow plane connecting alternate realities.
I don't have the MotP in my hands right this minute, but the way I remember it, having the shadow plane connect alternate realities was an option, not a default. Also, Dark Sun is no longer an officially-published setting from WotC, so it's not required to fit into WotC's "official canon" (as if they had any
) any more than the Fading Suns universe is.Wyvern
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
Please tell me I'll eventually wake up from this alternate Athas world!!!!!
TheWarOverlord. Have you ever read any official DS box set campaing?? you'd know exactly who the Pyreens are.
Aren't Pyreen a type of dwarf...
I don't think you'll be waking up any time soon
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Aren't Pyreen a type of dwarf...
Reminds me of that scene in The Patriot where they are trying to recruit people. So they go into a bar full of ruffians then Mel's character yells "Long live King George!", and suddenly EVERYONE gets up and starts throwing knives and shooting while they hurry up and scurry out. :D
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
Please tell me I'll eventually wake up from this alternate Athas world!!!!!
TheWarOverlord. Have you ever read any official DS box set campaing?? you'd know exactly who the Pyreens are.
And yess you do have a lot of imagination. I'll congratulate you for that in deed.
There was a Pyreen girl asking for help toward the end of "Wake of the Ravager"
She died within the first 2 rounds of the Final Battle of the PC Game cause she insisted on following my party into the final battle
And , no I have only seen supplements related to the Veiled Alliance, Preservers and Defilers, Dragon Kings, and The Mind Lords of the last sea
Never seen the Official Box Set Campaign, and never played a Pen and Paper D&D game in my life.
My first introduction to D&D was via the Computer Game called "Eye of the Beholder", then the Gold Box Series for the PC "Pool of Radiance", "Curse of the Azure Bonds"."Secret of the Silver Blades, "Pool of Darkness" and then the Kryn Series for the PC and then I stumbled on the SSI Pc game pack for $9 that included Darksun:Wake of the Ravager and Dark Sun: Crimson Sands.
I like too read up on stuff.....Even bought an Atlas of Middle Earth because of the Movie Peter Jackson released.
Likewise I got the Atlas to the Forgotten Realms and found what I coul;d on Athas during the time I was Playing CS and WOtR almost a decade ago.
Nope, I will admit I am no expert, but I know what I read and gain nothing by ranting about Spelljamming in Athas as that wasn't even mentioned in the Video Game though my characters ran into a sh!tload of Illithid when adventuring the lower caves of the Tyr mines.
I had a pet theory when I was reading lots of Dark Sun and Spelljammer that there was some alluding to a crossover...
In Spacefarer's handbook it is mentioned that Athas either isn't reachable by spelljamming, or just so far away from other spheres that it is very unfeasable to reach it. Personally, I believe the last reason to be more believable, since the Grey is a planar barrier, it should not affect the crystal sphere as such (although might technically prevent ships from passing through it).
In the Realmspace book there is a mysterious ship called the Batship and its creator Sarelk an extremely powerful mage (equal or greater than Elminster). It is mentioned that Sarelk's home was in a crystal sphere so far away that the phlogiston around it was so thin that it is barely visible to the eye, and that travelling there is nearly impossible.
It also said that the trip from the home sphere to realmspace took Sarelk and his wife almost 700 years.
It was always a favorite theory of mine that Athas is infact that crystal sphere, in a very inhospitable region of the phlogiston, as befitting to a world like Athas.
Alas, I cannot prove a word...
--
AeoN2
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Maybe not provable, but a nice theory anyhow. I always loved the batship (Realmspace was probably the first FR book I had bought). It would be cool to have Sarelk have been a defiler that managed to somehow get away form Athas space, or even an advanced dragon. Would definately give ol elminster more than a little pause.
Well with all the logos all over it, the Video game I played which was my introduction to Darksun had Illithids and Intellect Devourers in it and they (The Illithid) are a SpellJamming race....aren't they? (Spelljamming and Illithids seem to pop up together in other D&D video gmes anyway)
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Maybe not provable, but a nice theory anyhow. I always loved the batship (Realmspace was probably the first FR book I had bought). It would be cool to have Sarelk have been a defiler that managed to somehow get away form Athas space, or even an advanced dragon. Would definately give ol elminster more than a little pause.
What knowledge is available about Sarelk other then what WarOverlord said previously?? If all we know (officially) about him and his Batship as been stated here, maybe the idea of him being somesort of a immortal champion(dragon king to be) of Athas is not so bad an idea. And maybe the batship itself is ,at the same time, an artifact that permits travel through the gray thus into CrimsonSpace.(remember: the Batship is unique.)
Here's a short thought in the moment theory of why a Champion would be in *spacerealm*.
Sarelk was the Champion dedicated to cleans the X race not native to Athas but which they dwell for thousands of years.(about the same time as the rebirth era, so they were thought to be a race from the rebirth untill a few undred years before the Cleansing began when rajaat discovered that in their capital city, the greatest monument was a spelljamming ship.)
As a side note, bare with the fact that I dont know nor even recal any info on when did the gray/black appeared as a barier or if it has always been that way!!
Anyway to make it short, Sarelk persued the X race when they fled in their ship, to asure Rajaat that none of the non-athasian races would ever hear of the crimson world. Of course sarelk did succeed in destoying the X's ship thus any chance for them to eventually return to Athas. But he also lost himself in the vast univers.(the BatShip could still to this day re-enter the Crimson sphere but alas, he doesn't know where to look for it.
1-- this would explain where all the Athasian metal went for.
2-- A shill is invading me at the thought of a metal-bat the size of Borys returning to athas................. to free his master(Rajaat)
From the Realmspace book:
Sarelk, a sage and renowned mage of several worlds, created the batship. His wife Burnayette climed into the helm box (different than a normal SJ helm) and was trapped, unable to get out. She left the system in embarresment and Sarelk has persued her since. The batship is generally a small to medium sized ship, but its got mojo magics going on (sails of reflection for instance), great maneuverability, a bite attack and a grappling tail. Sarelk created it about 1,000 years ago.
So, Sarelk isn't quite the cap'n here, its his old lady out running amuck in the Tears of Selune. Sarelk is trying to find some way to get his wife under control and out of the cursed helm he created.
How would this fit with Athas? Well, there's not really a precedence for a duo of Champions, husband and wife. Not that its out of the realms of posibility, but I don't see it being too likely. Sarelk seems like a nice enough chap, so I doubt he's a genocidal killer (Champion).
Note that I couldn't find any mention of Sarelk being a power peer of elminster. Not that it matters much (I'd kill of the old twit on day 1 of a FR campaign anyhow).
Originally posted by Lokiyn
well i think it would be more fair to say that to don't have direct connections however its is dnd default to have the shadow plane connecting alternate realities. so its kindof like spelljamming somewhere it may not have a direct conection but that doesn't mean there isn't a twised arduous way to get there but maybe not back
There is one other thing to think about, IIRC - there is no Astral, Ethereal or Shadow planes defined for Athas. The traits usually applied to those planes are covered more in the Black and the Gray. As such, with no "normal" transitive planes, it does make Athas much harder to use them to get to or from it.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
You have to understand though that most video games based on a fantasy setting tend to take certain . . . liberties of expression when creating the game. Few games based on D&D stick 100% to the published setting. Some stray so far as to be laughable (the Ravenloft games come to mind). While enjoyable in their own right, most people who play the pen & paper versions rarely consider the story told within a video game version to be canon. I surely don't as far as the two DS video games (neither of which held much appeal for me).
Well, like I said, the gazillion Logos popping up would mean that the company(ies) that made the Darksun Campaign settling considered it an "Official Product" ...right?
I truly don't understand the "Cannon" thing one bit as my guess anyone short of the Campaign setting designers themselves would be the actual "Authorities" and they probablly don't give a rat's ass about the thing anymore as it's but "trash on the floor" that even WIzards of the Sword Coast wouldn't pick up.
My main point though is
1) Illithids are a Spelljammer culture and they were in the game and from all the logos that means that they were in a official Dark Sun product
2) Why make a specific note about "no Spelljamming" in the likes of "Preservers and Defilers" and other Athas supplements unless Spelljamming was a part of Athas' past once/It is supposed to be a given that Athas is not a Spelljammer world?
).2) The reason there's no DS-SJ is that it'd be difficult to mix the two (but not impossible). I doubt they saw much profit in doing it, as mixing the two could be damaging to both settings if not done properly. And in all honesty, such a release would have been done under the SJ banner, and thus likely a DarksunSpace Sphereguide. As much as I like the sphereguides, they didn't exactly capture the feel of the world they surrounded (FR was the worst), and likely the product would have been a poor one. In fact, generally you could remove the main world from the sphereguides and just use them as generic SJ products not directly linked to any setting at all.
I truly don't understand the "Cannon" thing one bit as my guess anyone short of the Campaign setting designers themselves would be the actual "Authorities" and they probablly don't give a rat's ass about the thing anymore as it's but "trash on the floor" that even WIzards of the Sword Coast wouldn't pick up.
I think you miss the point I'm making (or at least trying to make). Say WOTC put out a Dark Sun game book. Because its WOTC, that would make it 100% official, right? But lets say that they screwed things up a bit and put elves in the forest ridge instead of halfings, and that they forgot where Hamanu lived and put him in Balic, or even worse, said that Dragons were faerie like 2' tall creatures of good and light.
So, you have an official source (which technically should be considered canon) that screwed up and created inconsistancies. It happens. Unfortunately, with Dark Sun, it happened alot (fortunately not half as much as Greyhawk; at least the DS community isn't split into armed camps over canon). So, that means that a DM has to sort through some of the mess and decide what holds true for his campaign. Sorting out the inconsistancies is rather important if your running a long term campaign, or even several campaigns back to back in linear succession. Establishing what is canon and what gets ditched in one's game aids the DM in creating better adventures, ones with a higher level of background detail to draw upon when fleshing out people and places of his campaign.
Its rather difficult to explain some of it to someone who doesn't actually play the pen and paper version of the game. If your not gaming, then its simply akin to reading some novels strung together. But when you play, your creating new stories based on the information in the setting.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I think you miss the point I'm making (or at least trying to make). Say WOTC put out a Dark Sun game book. Because its WOTC, that would make it 100% official, right? But lets say that they screwed things up a bit and put elves in the forest ridge instead of halfings, and that they forgot where Hamanu lived and put him in Balic, or even worse, said that Dragons were faerie like 2' tall creatures of good and light.
So, you have an official source (which technically should be considered canon) that screwed up and created inconsistancies. It happens. Unfortunately, with Dark Sun, it happened alot (fortunately not half as much as Greyhawk; at least the DS community isn't split into armed camps over canon). So, that means that a DM has to sort through some of the mess and decide what holds true for his campaign. Sorting out the inconsistancies is rather important if your running a long term campaign, or even several campaigns back to back in linear succession. Establishing what is canon and what gets ditched in one's game aids the DM in creating better adventures, ones with a higher level of background detail to draw upon when fleshing out people and places of his campaign.
Its rather difficult to explain some of it to someone who doesn't actually play the pen and paper version of the game. If your not gaming, then its simply akin to reading some novels strung together. But when you play, your creating new stories based on the information in the setting.
Okay, then by "Official Cannon" the art of Spelljamming is impossible now :D
I started searching the different Dark Sun websites and one of the posters suggestion to get a better feel of the Pen and Paper game "mindset".
Looks like there are thousands of people running of on their own tangent and making up stuff and doing their own 3rd edition conversions...which from the "Official Mindset" is appalling and "not Cannon"
I read a book in a used bookstore while I was interested in learning more about the game I was playing in, and nobody thinks it was "real" or I am imaginative in mixing up things from Sources I never heard of before along with "my imagination" or "being delusional" or "pulling things out of my a$$".......whatever
Other than "Spelljamming" ringing a bell which is why I came into the post I don't even know the details of what a Spelljammer is other than it being a type of Space Ship that runs on tapping magic/life/energy from the pilot and that is uses a kind of "Sidespace" to travel the Multiverse (between universes) which are contained in "Crystal Shperes" (would that be like how things look funky and "flat" and "focused when "walking the astral" but when you enter the portal or whatever the world "expands" around you? Is the Crystal Spheres a type of "gate" that Spelljammers access into a pseudo-reality that spans between univereses in the multiverse?)
Once there were gods on Athas, long before the Lifemasters and Lifebenders in the Blue Age. However Athas' Astral plane was invaded by Psurlons, and the gods were having major difficulties in combating them. As a last ditch effort to fight them, they sealed Athas, changed the Astral into the Gray, the Etheral into the Black, putting the Psurlons and their minions to sleep, and slowly draining them of their energy. The gods knew that'd they'd no longer able to be contact their worshippers, so they put themselves into stasis until the time the Grey killed off the Psurlons, say in another 50,000 years or so. :D
Originally posted by beyowulf
Hey, how about this scenario.
Once there were gods on Athas, long before the Lifemasters and Lifebenders in the Blue Age. However Athas' Astral plane was invaded by Psurlons, and the gods were having major difficulties in combating them. As a last ditch effort to fight them, they sealed Athas, changed the Astral into the Gray, the Etheral into the Black, putting the Psurlons and their minions to sleep, and slowly draining them of their energy. The gods knew that'd they'd no longer able to be contact their worshippers, so they put themselves into stasis until the time the Grey killed off the Psurlons, say in another 50,000 years or so. :D
Cool,
But the "Lifemasters" were the Creators of the Lifebender Halflings, Pyreen and Tri-Kreen then turned up missing long before the "Blue Age", though their ships still fly over Athas with a few of them wandering around aimlessly and not able to control the ships they live in cause they "lost their way" so a abandonment of Athas or Rebellion was unlikely in the disappearance of the "Lifemasters" before the Lifebender ruled supreme (then $%#@ everything up life the "children" they were messing with the technology and magic of their former masters that they fully didn't understand)
The "ruins" of the "Lifemasters" were also inhabited by the Lifebender Halflings so it would be easy to say the method of become a Dragon/Avangion was Lifebender knowledge when it was in fact "Lifemaster" knowledge.
But the fact is the "Creator Race" known as the "Lifemasters" created the Halflings "in their own image" and they were "advanced beings" from using their knowledge and technology and magic and also used this to Engineer the Pyreen, the Halflings, and the Tri-Kreen for service (Slave/servant Races)
This is of course ignoring the fact that everyone thinks the book that all this came from doesn't exist
Bottom line is Spelljamming is impossible now.
Psurlons? I forgot about those. There was one trying to get my PC to work for them in "Crimson Sands"
Maybe they played a part in the "Lifemasters" demise in order to convince the Halflings to misuse the technology/magic?
Yeah, it was never Directly said, but the fact that not even gods can cross the "Black" and "Grey" makes me believe...and this IS my own opinion...that a Overgod..Maybe the Overgod of Athas saw was the Halflings and Psurlons were up to and created the rifts to keep such power from destroying other worlds.
Godrifts, Open and Closed Realms, and Overgod Projects and Immortal flunkies (godlings) are covered in the D&D Immortal Campaigns (Player Guide to Immortals. and DM's guide to Immortals)
Since this is official D&D and it is establish that Ao is the overgod of his Forgotten Realms "Project", it is a "closed Shpere" to Straggler gods, but open for pane traveling (By Ao's decree) from one of the follow up supplements, Then it isn't to unreasonable that Athas has a Overgod as well and maybe even godlings or at least once had godlings and the "Grey" and "Black" is the Overgod preventing both gods and immortals to not get in or escape. (again I am speculating on official "Cannon" concerning gods, overgods and the "projects" they keep and run)
Perhaps it was a Counsel of overgods that "busted" the Overgod of Athas and made him "Quarantine" his "project" to protect theirs (Much like the Counsel busted Ao for letting his godlings get the best of him which in turn made him throw his godlings to earth to "remedy" some of the problems he had to solve)
And, no, while we are on the subject the "Old Ones" like the Overgod Ao are not the "Higest Powers"...they to are "Flunkies" but we are already way off topic
Personnaly I don't care for this conversation, being the Spelljamming Champion and all
, but WarOverlord, what is it with that use of the brackets (i.e. quotation marks)."Because" I really "have" difficulty following what you're "saying", since "half" the things you "highlight" are personnal "terms" or expressions "and" the rest "are" official terms found "in" books, like Blue Age, "for" example.
Originally posted by Lokiyn
oh no doubt about that its just the implications that there are no connections what so ever bothers me more than the idea that everything is connected
Well the "Immortal's Campaign Setting" (D&D Player's Guide to Immortals, D&D DM's guide to immortals) Cosmology is
1) Outter Planes are Infinate, with infinate Layers
2) Each Universe/RealmSphere consists of
a) Prime Material Plane (finite or infinite)
b) Alternate Prime material Planes (finite or infinite)
c) Positive Material Plane
d) Negative Material Plane
e) Shadow Plane
f) Elemental and Para Elemental Planes
g) Ethereal Plane
3) The Astral Plane connects Each Univsere/RealmSphere to each other RealmSPhere/Universe and the Outter Planes.
4) The Astral Plane has multiple layers itself and Layers that connect one Universe/Realmspere to a Outterplane may or may not lead to another Universe/Realmsphere and the connection is always to a particular Layer of any given Outter Plane
5) There are natural and created Planes and demi-planes mostly by immortal creatures though powerful magic users can make "Pocket Realms"
6) Layers of any given or Plane Demi-Plane might have tags like Hyper, Sub, Deep, etc. (Ie Ravenloft is located in a Demi-Plane dubbed "Deep Ethereal"...but is odd that it touches all Universes when a true "Ethereal" is limited to one Universe )
7) There are 5 dimensions that Immortals can travel in, and 4 most mortals can handle but not the 5th as it is the "Nightmare Dimension".
8) There are more than 6 dimensions but Immortals that try to Phase into the 6th Dimension end up in a enldess Grey and risk falling into a vortex that destroys even immortals. (Put in place by the Overgods that made the gods)
9) Likewise not all Planes and Universes are friendly to all immortals/gods as "Godlocks" (in place by Overgods), Rifts (again Overgods) and such can prevent movement of the immortals/gods limit or take away their powers and limit/prevent granting of divine magic to followers. (IE Ao, Overgod of Forgotten Realms has a Rift that Limits gods traveling in and out of his Realm to the ones he has raised or imported, While UrthRealm (Earth Realm) is a open RealmShpere that allows any immortal in to influence it)
If you want to talk "die Hard" this is the original, and therefore "Cannon" Cosmology :D
The "Black" and "Grey" is the absense of the Astral...or at least a really big "buffer" rift as mentioned in "Preservers and Defilers"
AND TO GET BACK ON TOPIC
Since divine magic, and standard magic (from the "ether") doesn't get past the "Black" and "Grey" and even the gods can get lost in the "Black" and "Grey" to say that a device like a Spelljammer can go even where "divinity" has diffuculty is just silly.
I'm not saying that there are loads of elves and dwarves out there porking their brains out, but there's got to be a few. I mean, if an elf and a halfling can make it...
I'm also introducing gelflings and sketskies.
Ok, since the "SJ is impossible" mantra keeps getting repeated over and over again, I tracked down the passage in my newly acquired DS library. Defilers & Preservers, p10, 1st paragraph of "You Can't Get There from Here":
"Barriers exist between Athas and other places. In the case of other planes of existence, the Gray impedes travel. In the case of other places in the prime material plane, the crystal sphere surrounding Athas is impenetrable. Conquently, travel via spelljamming is impossible, and planar travel is much more difficult".
Of course, if one were to parse the wording, it doesn't disclude all SJ traffic from being local...;) And of course, the word "impossible" simply means "challenge" to many players & DMs. ;) Anyways, the article I wrote was for the purpose of DMs wanting to mix the two, but provide them a means of doing that is least destructive to the feel fo DS (and perhaps at the same time add some material to the DS-universe). I claim no canon authority in the article, and in fact note the article's non-canon nature in the introduction.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Wow...in the process of mangling DS & SJ canon, Waroverlord has brought in FR and Mystara in as well
Ok, since the "SJ is impossible" mantra keeps getting repeated over and over again, I tracked down the passage in my newly acquired DS library. Defilers & Preservers, p10, 1st paragraph of "You Can't Get There from Here":
"Barriers exist between Athas and other places. In the case of other planes of existence, the Gray impedes travel. In the case of other places in the prime material plane, the crystal sphere surrounding Athas is impenetrable. Conquently, travel via spelljamming is impossible, and planar travel is much more difficult".
Of course, if one were to parse the wording, it doesn't disclude all SJ traffic from being local...;) And of course, the word "impossible" simply means "challenge" to many players & DMs. ;) Anyways, the article I wrote was for the purpose of DMs wanting to mix the two, but provide them a means of doing that is least destructive to the feel fo DS (and perhaps at the same time add some material to the DS-universe). I claim no canon authority in the article, and in fact note the article's non-canon nature in the introduction.
Mystara?
Is that another spelling of Toril's goddess of Magic? :D
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
Mystara?
Is that another spelling of Toril's goddess of Magic? :D
You've got to be joking...
No, Mystara is another campaign setting. AKA the Known World of basic D&D. Similiar name to the FR goddess (Mystra), but the two are completely unrelated.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
You've got to be joking...
No, Mystara is another campaign setting. AKA the Known World of basic D&D. Similiar name to the FR goddess (Mystra), but the two are completely unrelated.
Hey, I stumbled across a Site called "THe Burnt World of Athas" today and they claim to be Official and reconized By WOTSC.
Nope. No Spelljamming allowed in Athas, and I didn't find the Book on the Lifemasters on that site either.
It is likely the "Lifemasters" might have been a Independent publishing supplement?
Maybe a project for a fanatical group that had the time and ability and money to make such a book much like the BWOA sites dedication to Athas? :D
OMG!...
OMG!!!...
www.athas.org , "The Burnt World of Athas" IS the official Dark
Sun site AND, yes, they are recognised bis WotC.
They released the Dark Sun 3.0 and 3.5 rules most of us here are probably using and the athas.org staff may even have read what you wrote, because they are also members of this forum.
Bye WarOverlord...
[I also play the ignore game from now on]
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
Hey, I stumbled across a Site called "THe Burnt World of Athas" today and they claim to be Official and reconized By WOTSC.
Nope. No Spelljamming allowed in Athas, and I didn't find the Book on the Lifemasters on that site either.
It is likely the "Lifemasters" might have been a Independent publishing supplement?
Maybe a project for a fanatical group that had the time and ability and money to make such a book much like the BWOA sites dedication to Athas? :D
Hey look everyone!
It's a troll in disguise!
Where's Hammanu when you need him?
Actually, there are several occasions where he even gives gaming advice on what works and what doesn't work in an actual game, yet he then goes on in the DS threads to profess that he in fact doesn't even play D&D?
WarOverlord. First, learn to read. Had you taken any amount of actual time out to browse these threads (which is a simple common courtesy and considered good net ettiquete), you would have seen perhaps a dozen or more posts about people asking if there was a 3rd edition version of Dark Sun coming out and the responses pointing the new poster to Athas.org. Roughly 40% of the threads on this message board are related specifically to the work on various projects by the Athas.org team. The link for the Burnt World of Athas (i.e. Athas.org) is smeared all over the threads here, including links in many people's signatures.
Next time you jump into a series of threads, take some time to ask a few questions instead of jumping in as the foremost authority on the subject. You may actually learn a thing or two that way and not wind up being flammed and ignored. Become familiar with the topics at hand through resources available. If you realise that you lack the resources, then by all means, ask the comunity itself for information. You'll actually garner some respect that way. You've certainly put the wrong foot foreward. Clean the slate and try again. I'm sure that the people here will be willing to make a second attempt. Maybe.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
After reading what Mach has to say I have to second this.
/me goes and checks out the flames on the psionic boards (can always count on that board for some good flames, hehe)
/me follows Nytcrawlr to the psi board to see the good flamefests...
Originally posted by Nightdruid
There's one thing I know for sure about psionics: people take them quite passionately. For or against is irrelevant...
Amen to that brother.
Originally posted by Elonarc
OMG...
OMG!...
OMG!!!...
www.athas.org , "The Burnt World of Athas" IS the official Dark
Sun site AND, yes, they are recognised bis WotC.
They released the Dark Sun 3.0 and 3.5 rules most of us here are probably using and the athas.org staff may even have read what you wrote, because they are also members of this forum.
Bye WarOverlord...
[I also play the ignore game from now on]
Does WOTSC own the rights to Darksun?
If not their endorsement is useless :D
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Apparently, this isn't the only section of these boards where WarOverlord has come in professing to educate the masses with his vast knowledge, only to later admit a limited amount of reference. Poor guys in the psionics threads already ripped him up . . .
Actually, there are several occasions where he even gives gaming advice on what works and what doesn't work in an actual game, yet he then goes on in the DS threads to profess that he in fact doesn't even play D&D?
WarOverlord. First, learn to read. Had you taken any amount of actual time out to browse these threads (which is a simple common courtesy and considered good net ettiquete), you would have seen perhaps a dozen or more posts about people asking if there was a 3rd edition version of Dark Sun coming out and the responses pointing the new poster to Athas.org. Roughly 40% of the threads on this message board are related specifically to the work on various projects by the Athas.org team. The link for the Burnt World of Athas (i.e. Athas.org) is smeared all over the threads here, including links in many people's signatures.
Next time you jump into a series of threads, take some time to ask a few questions instead of jumping in as the foremost authority on the subject. You may actually learn a thing or two that way and not wind up being flammed and ignored. Become familiar with the topics at hand through resources available. If you realise that you lack the resources, then by all means, ask the comunity itself for information. You'll actually garner some respect that way. You've certainly put the wrong foot foreward. Clean the slate and try again. I'm sure that the people here will be willing to make a second attempt. Maybe.
What, and miss out on all the fun?
I am a diehard 2nd eddition Darksun World fan, 3rd eddition Psions are just little more than Sorcerers and prefer 2nd Edition Psionics (I miss the Classic Bard and the Cavalier, but that's another story) , and no spelljamming is allowed in Athas, period.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Hey look everyone!
It's a troll in disguise!
Aw, Me Found out.
Must go throw rocks elsewhere now
I am not a Troll. I did read that book but that is not the point of the post and this has got way off topic.
Where's Hammanu when you need him?
Wouldn't you rather I be a participant in a "Red Moon Night" with you guys as the hunters?
Originally posted by Kamelion
WarOverlord, no-one is doubting the officiality of the Dark Sun PC games or the references in Defilers and Preservers of Athas, Comlete Spacefarer's Handbook or whatever. These are all canon (which simply means the stuff published or licensed by TSR/WotC, btw). It's your claims of officialdom for all this other material you keep talking about (which nobody else here has even heard of, let alone seen or read) that are a little off-base. (Well, a lot but I don't want to be rude
Oh no, I am not trying to fight "the authorities" if they are going to conclude that the material is "not offical", I just don't like being called a liar and delusional and a troll just because I said I read a book that everyone else says "does not exist".
But to stay On topic, at least once, if you go by "Cannon" there is no Spelljamming allowed....period
Where's Hammanu when you need him?
Misspelling Hamanu?! That's three bluish-white lightning bolts! *ZAP x3*
Originally posted by erasmus1634
I have it at home. I don't remember where it is or what source it came from.. I'll look it up when I get home. After my karate class and dinner. And wife time. And dog time.
God I hate being an adult sometimes.
haaa! are you telling us you have a most interesting wife!!! :D sorry, had to say this.