But i got to have a read of the Advanced Players Guide today. And i have to say, for anybody who thinks it may be the salvation of 4th ed for their campaigns. have a good read first. The new crafting rules are not like the 3rd ed ones.. they are very much like the ritual rules in 4th ed, each different craft has a base skill it works from.
I found the race (Shire Halfling, Earth Gnome and Blooded Orc) as well as the classes (Martial Artist, Nature Priest, Savage Warrior and Troubadour) to be very underwhelming. None of them made me want to play them more than anything in the PHB. The martial artist did have some nice powers (but my interest may have been piqued because i have studied martial arts). Each type of kick etc is broken down into a power basically.
The wound rules at the end are quite nice, i do like them. It does have a disclaimer though that it makes 4th ed a much more difficult game if you use these rules.
I would be interested in hearing what anybody else thought of this book.
It isn't bad.. but no where near as good as the WOTC releases.. IMO
So I don't live and breathe WotC book releases... what is the Advanced Players Guide?
Well, for one, it wasn't made by WotC.
I'll take a gander at it next time I'm at my LGS. Mouseferatu always seemed to be a pretty good poster (although I haven't seen much of him) so I'll keep an eye out, if for no other reason than "Mouseferatu" being a great name.
It is worth a look.. like i said i do really like the wound system presented in the back of the book.. but as for the races/classes.. i think i will wait for the WOTC bard, druid and barbarian (barbarian preview in dragon on monday too people!)
The crafting system is ok.. i just really don't think it is needed.. so i wouldn't use it anyways.
*I don't remember the name.
It isn't bad.. but no where near as good as the WOTC releases.. IMO
Which amuses me considering WotC's level of errata and how many WotC books have Mr Marmell's name on rather large portions of them. (including the upcoming Draconomicon, and both the Setting and Players Guide for Eberron)I do look forward to seeing more of the works of Ari Marmell though. The book is well written and the material does what it claims to do, even if it didn't make me go "Ooh, I wanna use that!"
The martial Artists class was kind of a mixed bag as some of the features worried me (especially letting Wis replace Int or Dex for AC and Ref,) but the powers were very cool. My favorite being Lunging Hydra Kick a lvl 17 encounter that allows the user to shift 2 squares attack for 3[W], on a successful hit shift 2 squares make an attack for 2[W], and if that is successful shift two squares and make an attack for 1[W]; that's Bruce Lee cool. I also enjoyed several of the Soft style build powers.
The Savage Warrior was a very solid Martial Defender that focusing on charging. The Fury feature gives a slight attack bonus ac bonus and effectively gives the high crit feature to all Savage warrior powers when bloodied. My favorite aspect of this class however is the Relentless Attack feature, which allows a savage warrior character to make a basic attack against an adjacent enemy that attacks an ally and it counts as an opportunity attack (pretty much the ultimate defender feature in my opinion.)
Despite having the weakest name in the book, the Nature Priest ended up being my favorite class over all. A Divine Controller, the Nature Priest specializes in summoning spirits and creating terrain effects, with a sprinkling of more classical controller effects.. The summon spells are handled by making an impassable terrain that can attack an adjacent creature when cast, or sustained, and maybe moved with a move action. I much prefer this mechanic to spending healing surges, or managing minions. My favorite prayer over all was the level two utility Climbing Bough, which creates a tree in a square with a height of for squares *poof* there's a tree! pure win
The Troubadour is the bard replacement , and it makes for an odd but interesting Arcane leader. With abilities like donating action points, making opportunity attacks more lethal, and letting allies leap frog beneficial effects off of you to extend range, the The Troubadour is a very different character from Warlords or Clerics. That said there was a fatal flaw in the class, their implements are never described beyond saying they exist.
There was one class that kind disappointed me however; the Spell Binder. Marketed as a 4th ed Illusionist the class the class ends up feeling incomplete and untested. This class had a very different design philosophy from the others in the book and I think it hurt a lot. Rather than creating an entirely new class the Spell binder takes spells from the Wizard, Warlock, and Troubadour adding some unique powers of it's own to create a class. I've never been a fan of cherry picking, much less cherry picking across three class roles. The class claims to be a controller, but it feels more like a second rate striker to me. There are no build options either.
Chapter three was on classic paragon paths for the PHB classes; Acrobat (Martial Artist / Rogue), Merciless Assassin (Rogue), Specialist Mage (Warlock / Wizard) and Cavalier (Fighter / Paladin / Warlord.)
Chapter Four and five were rather short but no real complaints here: four has Heroic and paragon feats for each race and class in the book, and five has seven new rituals.
Chapter six presented two optional rules: Crafting and Wounds.
The Crafting rules are well done, and well liked by my group. Rather than adding more skills, or requiring feats crafting training is a new trait that just require time and training to learn. They remind me of Weapon training from the Rules Cyclopedia. Each specialty is tied to a skill, and the DC is tied to the price of the final product and the work conditions. it's simple and effective.
The Wound system is treated like a status effect that has worse penalties each time it is applied. The book gives several options on when to apply the condition based so you can customize how lethal you want your game. Personaly I like 4th edds lethality, but I think the wound system could be perfect for grittier game.
Sorry if that was gibberish, but it's late and I need to sleep: In summery I really enjoyed the book, although it does have flaws. I think it's well worth the PDF price however.
The Savage Warrior was a very solid Martial Defender that focusing on charging.
How does Ari's barbarian compare with the Playtest barbarian?
Everybody can have an "off" book.. i do like alot of his work.. just not the races and classes in this product.
Like i said in my original post, i do like the wound rules.. but the rest is very meh to me.
I also think the amount of errata coming out form Wizard sis a good thing.. it is way bette rthan leaving the broken options as the correct rules.
How does Ari's barbarian compare with the Playtest barbarian?
They are actually quite different. The Advanced Players Handbook savage warrior ir more about charging etc.
The WOTC Barbarian is a striker with a truck load of HP's, i think it might be a bit early to do a true comparison because we have only seen half of the wizards class, but form what i have seen, i think the WOTC class is far more interesting (to me at least)
First, the production values, which for obvious reasons are nowhere near as slick as Wizards'. This is, unfortunately, unavoidable, but as someone pointed out, the color-coding of powers is actually a major convenience for 4e that is missed in black-and-white printing. Also, Wizards' books do a pretty good job of pagesetting so that you don't get multiple topic headings on the same page, which is just cleaner in general. Also there are a million and one typos in the thing, but that's to be expected from any RPG supplement.
Second, and more problematic: it breaks the mold on paragon path advancement, with some paths having their higher-order path abilities granted at 17th level instead of 16th, for no reason that I can comprehend. As someone who likes the unified advancement procedure, this sends up red flags, and if/when I ever have a player use any of these (the only class that interested me at all was the martial artist, and I'm more inclined to continue to use my own version derived from the Ranger class than this one) I'm going to modify them to use the standard progression.
And finally, a major problem with it: the earth gnome's racial power, which effectively means they can make ranged and area attacks in melee range with impunity. An encounter power I could understand, but at-will, as a minor action? It strikes me as being too good, and I almost never say things are too good.
Second, and more problematic: it breaks the mold on paragon path advancement, with some paths having their higher-order path abilities granted at 17th level instead of 16th, for no reason that I can comprehend. As someone who likes the unified advancement procedure, this sends up red flags, and if/when I ever have a player use any of these (the only class that interested me at all was the martial artist, and I'm more inclined to continue to use my own version derived from the Ranger class than this one) I'm going to modify them to use the standard progression.
This was a mistake that got throught the editing proccess. Ari has already addressed it and other errata issues here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/242144-advanced-players-guide-questions.html
They are actually quite different. The Advanced Players Handbook savage warrior ir more about charging etc.
Interesting. If they are actually quite different I might end up getting this book. Maybe.
The WOTC Barbarian is a striker with a truck load of HP's, i think it might be a bit early to do a true comparison because we have only seen half of the wizards class, but form what i have seen, i think the WOTC class is far more interesting (to me at least)
Then again if WotC's classes are significantly better, I probably won't ;)
I own the book and I like it.
Once again I ask, how do you think Ari's Barbarian compares with the playtest one?
Cut the guy some slack...he worked on this before 4e relased, and then had to shift to a smaller company for final editing.
Yup, yup. Also: He had to work on it on his own, basically, because of his NDA until 4E was released, meaning the editor (which changed in the meantime) wasn't half as familiar with 4E as he, while he had varying playtest versions of the rules.
That's why people work in teams on books, usually. Plus: Ari's real forte is delicious flavour and stuff like that - as a designer he's good, sometimes has innovations, but he's a much better writer and designer than developer (you see that with the ToM's shadow magic part - so good ideas, but until you applied his fixes, it was mechanically underpowered, again good ideas, great fluff... but the fine tuning was not so good), so I guess that book didn't really play to his strengths and had some handicaps.
Cheers, LT.
But the classes. They are perfectly done. Monk Striker (controller), Druid Controller, Barbarian Defender, Bard Leader, Illusionist.... everything you miss from previous editions done, not in a hasty get-it-out-there before anyone else fashio, but balanced and sensible.
It's a hundred times better than the FR Player's Guide where a Swordmage uses Intelligence for everything making a wizened old man with a Strength of 8 and dex of 10 as good with a blade as Conan (Mental for a Melee Weapon power is just wrong, and that includes much of the Paladin stuff, though at least with Paladins, it can be thematically thought of us God guiding your hands in battle. Mental for arcane-ish reach attacks, but not your chance to hit with a sword)
I mean hell.... even a Cleric has to use Strength to hit. But enough of that, just a pet-peeve of mine.
The classes in Advanced Player's Guide though, awesome. Everything felt balanced, though I only analyzed up to Paragon since that's where my in-game experience ends. The Paragon Paths (especially the Specialist Wizard) were also superbly done.
I sincerely hope that the creator goes on to make more core-rule books, such as an Advanced Adventurer's Vault.
As for the optional rules for combat (with losing limbs and such). Not my cup of tea at all, but for games where realism are more important to the DM and players, seems like a great addition. I wouldn't use them, or want them used in games I play in, but I do know many players that would jump at those rules as the greatest thing since kool aid.
On a side note: I didn't notice that the Earth Gnome Racial wasn't an encounter, thanks for the heads up.
An Adnavced equipment Guide would be cool, but I'd prefer an Advanced Creature Catalog myself.
It's a hundred times better than the FR Player's Guide where a Swordmage uses Intelligence for everything making a wizened old man with a Strength of 8 and dex of 10 as good with a blade as Conan (Mental for a Melee Weapon power is just wrong, and that includes much of the Paladin stuff, though at least with Paladins, it can be thematically thought of us God guiding your hands in battle. Mental for arcane-ish reach attacks, but not your chance to hit with a sword).
I think it's interesting. To you all of that is a bad thing. For me, it's freakin' awesome. I just think the difference is kind of cool.
Overall... I'd say 8 out of 10 - a solid B.
Although "Gusting Wind" has GOT to be the most unfortunately hilarious combination of fluff text and power name I have ever seen.
It's a good book and I'm glad I bought it, but I'm also glad I didn't buy it at full price, because some of the game mechanics definitely don't look fully tested.
Is this any different from other RPG books?
Is this any different from other RPG books?
Not really. ;)
It's really pretty typical for a first-generation third-party product for ANY game, paper or electronic.
Not really. ;)
It's really pretty typical for a first-generation third-party product for ANY game, paper or electronic.
I've just had similar feelings about some WotC products. ;)
Ignoring the black and white, I would put the material in this product next to many of WotC's supplementary books.
Numerous errors that I cannot begin to count
What are you talking about?Unless there are more errors than currently in the errata, then there are little more than thirty listed errors in the book and almost half of them are just "Should be 16th, not 17th." or "Should be a free action, not Immediate Reaction."
Unless there are more errors than currently in the errata, then there are little more than thirty listed errors in the book and almost half of them are just "Should be 16th, not 17th." or "Should be a free action, not Immediate Reaction."
Seems like a lot of errors for something that is no thicker than my pinky. I dont know, I guess I believe in something QUALITY and YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, not PAY FULL PRICE FOR A ERROR RIDDEN SOFTCOVER book (could it even be labled as a book, I would say magazine as it has the same number of pages as one with the full year subscribtion attached).
I am just saying it wasnt thought out very well and now I suffer for it (editors not doing their job with copy/paste, bad editing, not very thought out as rules for impliments are missing, seems like I bought v1 Advanced Players Guide and all thats left is to wait for v2).
Seems like a lot of errors for something that is no thicker than my pinky. I dont know, I guess I believe in something QUALITY and YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, not PAY FULL PRICE FOR A ERROR RIDDEN SOFTCOVER book (could it even be labled as a book, I would say magazine as it has the same number of pages as one with the full year subscribtion attached).
I am just saying it wasnt thought out very well and now I suffer for it (editors not doing their job with copy/paste, bad editing, not very thought out as rules for impliments are missing, seems like I bought v1 Advanced Players Guide and all thats left is to wait for v2).
I would have to say that you are making a mountain out of a molehill. You seem to me have taken reasonable concerns and multiplied them by a factor of ten, all of sudden making the comments unreasonable.
If I take what you say I would have to believe that you believe that Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters and Wizards Presents: Classes and Races were possibly not even real books.
It has errors. A good chunk of errors. However most of those errors are just a pair of errors repeated several times and thankfully both only require a minor correction. Without those the number of errors is much more reasonable, with a few that are not easily corrected in the book itself.
I would have to say that you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
LOL funny, I used to say this when my sister thought she was growing breasts.
If I take what you say I would have to believe that you believe that Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters and Wizards Presents: Classes and Races were possibly not even real books.
Are they worth the paper they are printed on? No, those "books" were a sorry excuse to milk consumers for their money. Wizards must have caught on as they are releasing samples (just as in those "books") for free. Imagine how much money they could make off of Wizards Presents: Not Done Classes So We Are Charging To Show You What They Might Look Like In The Book You Will Buy Later, however, they have apparently realized how dumb that is.
It has errors. A good chunk of errors. However most of those errors are just a pair of errors repeated several times and thankfully both only require a minor correction. Without those the number of errors is much more reasonable, with a few that are not easily corrected in the book itself.
Yes, apparently I am not the only one who admits that there are more errors than one of the first editions of Lord of the Rings Trilogy. I would prefer not to write in my book to account for those "minor" errors. This gives Publishers an excuse to make half-a*sed books, sell them, and then work on the errata (which is a sorry excuse for a correction as now I must print out the errata, keep it in the book and whenever I want to use material I must check the printed out papers if it had been fixed). By people saying "Oh the errors are minor", you are giving permission to those Publisher to make plenty more mistakes instead of doing a proper Quality Control.
"with a few that are not easily corrected in the book itself".
Do you mean the fact that it is a Softcover book that will probably need to be replaced in a few years or the fact that rules that are mentioned are completly ommited from the book.
I am not sorry that I complain as the money that pays for these books comes out of my pocket, especially when the economy is in such a sorry state that I must now pay full price for a half-finished product.
...however, they have apparently realized how dumb that is.
Or they are waiting to release that products at the before the release of 5th edition.
I am not sorry that I complain as the money that pays for these books comes out of my pocket, especially when the economy is in such a sorry state that I must now pay full price for a half-finished product.
Yes, I'm sorry too that you had to pay full price for the 4e Player's Handbook as well. With the amount of errors that you can't begin to count, missing items that can only be obtained buy purchasing another book. :P
I'm not saying your the general topic of your complaints is incorrect, just that you overblowing the issue by a significant margin.
Or they are waiting to release that products at the before the release of 5th edition.
Yes, I'm sorry too that you had to pay full price for the 4e Player's Handbook as well. With the amount of errors that you can't begin to count, missing items that can only be obtained buy purchasing another book. :P
I'm not saying your the general topic of your complaints is incorrect, just that you overblowing the issue by a significant margin.
You my friend are mistaken as I never pay full price for any book through Amazon.com. I had gotten the Core Rulebook Set for a grand total of $57.77.
Do you know how to debate? You say I am overblowing the issue, how so? Make specific points not general ones. I would like a healthy debate on why people think it's worth their money even with all the above mentioned wrongs with the book.
??? PHB wasnt error-ridden, Wizards merely made REVISIONS, not errors. Am I wrong or did every addition have a Supplimental Book you could buy to get increased access to a more wide variety Items?
Do you know how to debate? You say I am overblowing the issue, how so? Make specific points not general ones. I would like a healthy debate on why people think it's worth their money even with all the above mentioned wrongs with the book.
Actually as the one questioning the quality, it should be on you to provide specific reasons it is NOT worth the money, then Zynete or someone else would be able to give counter arguments. As it is, all you have said is that it has 'numerous errors' and that it should have been hardbound, which seems a bit of overkill for such a small book IMHO. The covers would take up more shelf space than the content.
I understand that you feel it is not worth the price, but I am generally at a loss as to why you feel that way.
Do you know how to debate? You say I am overblowing the issue, how so? Make specific points not general ones. I would like a healthy debate on why people think it's worth their money even with all the above mentioned wrongs with the book.
I don't care to with you. I have been tempted to, but I didn't want to try to debate specific points until I was sure this conversation would actually have a chance of going somewhere. I don't actually believe it has any chance anymore.
And calling things revisions doesn't suddenly make them not corrections to things made in the book. Otherwise that could be just as applicable to the Advanced Player's Guide.
I don't care to with you. I have been tempted to, but I didn't want to try to debate specific points until I was sure this conversation would actually have a chance of going somewhere. I don't actually believe it has any chance anymore.
And calling things revisions doesn't suddenly make them not corrections to things made in the book. Otherwise that could be just as applicable to the Advanced Player's Guide.
Except that Ari admitted that they were errors, where Wizards said "OK this, this, and this doesnt work, let's balance it".
Look, I am not saying the book is bad, I am just saying it wasnt worth $25. I have brought up all VALID points on how it isnt worth $25. This is just meant to be contructive critisism to Ari (he does check these boards) on where he can improve.
OK, do you know how a debate works? I bash something and you give a rebuttle on why my point is not valid. You do have a chance to change my mind (and others) if you can come up with valid reasons.
I list a whole bunch of things wrong with APG and all you can say is "...look at the PHB...".
Nothing against you, I just love (healthy) debate. :P
I list a whole bunch of things wrong with APG and all you can say is "...look at the PHB...".
I'm going to save my time and keep this response short.
No. That is incorrect. I just gave up on those arguments early on when I saw they were going anywhere.
I list a whole bunch of things wrong with APG and all you can say is "...look at the PHB...".
I hate to repeat myself, but you haven't 'listed a whole bunch of things'. You've made the general claim that it 'has numerous errors'. You're not even following your own rules.
Implements mentioned in the classes, but not included.
One really overpowered power.
A number of copy past errors.
Using outdated keywords occasionally.
Others things that I don't recall mentioned in the ENWorld thread about - where Ari is correcting all those things.
And you know what ? I love the book anyway. Yeah it had errors, but you know I've given up expecting error free RPG books. Errata is a part of life now as a gamer.
The content of the book - the new races and classes are excellent. Full of flavor and look interesting to play.
Some of the problems -
Implements mentioned in the classes, but not included.
One really overpowered power.
A number of copy past errors.
Using outdated keywords occasionally.
Others things that I don't recall mentioned in the ENWorld thread about - where Ari is correcting all those things.
And you know what ? I love the book anyway. Yeah it had errors, but you know I've given up expecting error free RPG books. Errata is a part of life now as a gamer.
The content of the book - the new races and classes are excellent. Full of flavor and look interesting to play.
Sorry, hadnt had a computer for a couple of days. In addition to the listed.
-Softcover
-Not Color coded as should be required for ease of power use.
-Impliments for both Martial Artist AND Druid missing (already mentioned, figured Id clarify it)
-Powers being unbalanced (The troubadour's "Glib Tongue". vs. the Paladins 2nd lvl power)
-Spellbinder not having any unique powers (seems like they needed more material so they took a little from everything to fill pages)
-Barbarian as a Defender is lacking a marking ability
-what happened to the Spellbinder's level 1 daily's?
-Savage Charge is not as good as the PHB feat Fast Runner (back to the balance issue)
-Soothe the savage beast (Tr Daily 1)has the paralysis keyword which does not exist
-Demon Dance (MA Enc 1) which basically does [w] damage to every creature within 2 squares for the entire encounter is just a little over powered!
-Obfuscating Mist (SB Util 1) does not have a duration. (and doesnt have a sustain action)
-Troubadour's Cause Fear ability should follow CHA (lol hes a bard, not a cleric)
- Deal With Him! does not specify when/how the mark expires.
some may have overlapped with the above posters, however, here is some of the list.
Sorry, hadnt had a computer for a couple of days. In addition to the listed.
-Softcover
That isn't necessarily a problem. I actually prefer softcover books to hardcover.
That isn't necessarily a problem. I actually prefer softcover books to hardcover.
Well, my only complaint about Softcovers is that they dont last as long as Hardcovers. I remeber way back with Tomb & Blood and all those other supplimental 3.0 softcover books, I had to replace them all because eventually the cover was nonexsistant and then the pages started to fall out. Granted it took them 3 years to get that way but my PHB is still in perfect condition.
Granted it took them 3 years to get that way but my PHB is still in perfect condition.
I can see that. My 1st ed PH is still in great condition - some cover wear, some spilled stuff on pages, but the binding is still going strong. But then I have some Softcover Champions books (my primary game) from 20 years ago in great shape as well.
I can see that. My 1st ed PH is still in great condition - some cover wear, some spilled stuff on pages, but the binding is still going strong. But then I have some Softcover Champions books (my primary game) from 20 years ago in great shape as well.
I guess it to each owns D&D group. Nobody I played with had any money so basically my books were the community books.
LOL lesson learned.
One of the main stumbling blocks I have to getting my group into 4th is they don't like the rework on HP
There are a few errors in the book, but I don't think there are any which are overwhelming. I ended up getting this book for $3 from a friend who has decided to not play 4E anymore, so I really can't complain at all about the value I got out of the book.
If WotC hadn't stepped up their game so much with 4e's supplemental books, I'd likely have bought it. It's on par with the second-tier 3.5 supplements, and I bought most of those.
But... 4e's supplements from Wizards have, thus far, been undeniably awesome, and they're coming out quick enough that I'm feeling absolutely no pressure to add material to my gaming faster than Wizards is already letting me. And, while the quality of this compares well to many of the better 3.5 releases, it doesn't really hold a candle to Draconomicon, Martial Power, or FRPG.
This is the book (well, the PDF, anyway) that convinced some of the die-hard anti-4E people to give 4E a try after they'd perused the APG.
Having played 4E with a small group of friends who're primarily WW Exalted & WoD players, I like 4E even more than I thought I would. The APG helped fill out some of the classes further, and the crafting rules were a nice touch.
(Thankfully, no-one in either group is wanting to use the "Lasting Wounds" rule sub-set, as that really would slow the game down.)
They both cover a lot of the same material, giving a Barbarian, Bard, Druid and Monk. APG is more ambitious, to be sure - it gives new races, and new optional rules and subsystems, where FH is purely 4 classes and some very generalized advice on running apocalyptic campaigns. Personally, I think the apocalypse theme is pretty tacked on.
However, FH, while also full of editing errors, feels more complete, in its classes, and they seem to fit in better with other 4e classes. They also made the Barbarian a defender, and gave them a mark very similar to the fighter. The difference is, when an ally is attacked by a marked enemy, they can *shift* and then make a *basic attack*. It's different from the immediate interrupt of Fighter's challenge. Also, they don't have the 'movement prevening' things a fighter does, but rather, options for enhancing their own movement.
I like it - a defender who gets to where the action is, instead of locking the action down. I've found it makes for more fun, dynamic fights.
That said, I'll have to play with both, a bit more, before I decide, hands down. At this point, however, we're using the FH classes, and they work well. Major issues with FH are as follows:
1. Many editing errors. Again, I can't say which book has more, but there's a lone Barbarian attack that's Intelligence VS AC... that's a mistake. There's text with random dots in it, at a couple of points. Strange typos, etc.
2. Awful paragon paths. Not sure how this happened, when the classes are pretty decent, but many of the PPs are terrible. The Bard is the best example. There are two bard builds. It's a leader, with a melee option (dex based swashbuckler) that functions more like a warlord or battle cleric, and a ranged option (charisma based music attacks) that works like the radiant cleric. Trouble is, *both* paragon paths cater solely to the second bard type, the musical/charisma based bard. Weird to not include a single one for swashbuckler...
3. Cheap, and flimsy. It's also a paperback, only about 88 pages, and it retails at $20. I paid a lot less on Amazon, but that's pretty ridiculous. Page for pay, it's still a better deal than the first party books, but at least they're hardcore. It doesn't smudge, though... trade offs abound.