Defined Terms - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Defined Terms

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Wraith428
Jun 19, 2008 0:36:08 Trying to understand this. Hope I'm wrong but don't think I am.

Let's say I want to create a world setting where halflings are desert dwelling nomads who excel at making pacts with devils. I'm essentially redefining halflings which is a not allowed by the GSL right?

Would it be okay if I called them Tainted Halflings or Desert Halflings? Where is the line drawn?

What if I have a race of three and half foot tall humanoids who look vaguely human but live in the desert and practice devil worship and call them Hakkins? Can I say Hakkins use the stats for Halflings (see the D&D 4E Player's Handbook)?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

Wraith428
#2
hellmute
Jun 19, 2008 0:58:13
halflings are desert dwelling nomads

Not allowed.

You cannot alter the definitions of anything within the game itself. Halflings are what the PHB and/or MM says they are and that is all.
#3
dcanderson
Jun 19, 2008 1:03:01
Adding Original Material
Per Section 4.1 of the GSL, you can add functions to 4E
References as long as, in doing so, you don’t redefine that 4E
Reference. For example, simply adding a use for the
Athletics skill doesn’t redefine the whole skill, so you could
create such a new use.

I guess you could say something like

"Halflings in the world of Y are different than other halflings because they do X"

Which would be adding to the definition, not changing it.
#4
hellmute
Jun 19, 2008 1:06:17 "as long as, in doing so, you don’t redefine that 4E Reference"
#5
Wraith428
Jun 19, 2008 1:07:04 So how about renaming or adding to the name. Desert Halflings or Hakkin?

Wraith428
#6
dcanderson
Jun 19, 2008 1:08:28
So how about renaming or adding to the name. Desert Halflings or Hakkin?

Wraith428

I guess since they're a different kind of halfing, you are adding to the definition with more kinds of halfling.
#7
emwasick
Jun 19, 2008 1:58:34
So how about renaming or adding to the name. Desert Halflings or Hakkin?

Wraith428

Your best bet is to get in touch with someone at WotC for clarification if you plan to publish and sell anything.
#8
hellmute
Jun 19, 2008 2:42:08 And they will tell you to contact your lawyer to have them clearify it for you.

WotC isn't going to answer any questions as that would mean work and $$$ for their lawyers.
#9
emwasick
Jun 19, 2008 3:52:01
And they will tell you to contact your lawyer to have them clearify it for you.

WotC isn't going to answer any questions as that would mean work and $$$ for their lawyers.

Have you experienced this or heard anyone tell you folks at WotC refused to answer questions?
#10
hellmute
Jun 19, 2008 4:04:45 Yes. Not about the GSL, but was told to contact my lawyers about something. Details withheld.
#11
emwasick
Jun 19, 2008 16:03:36
Yes. Not about the GSL, but was told to contact my lawyers about something. Details withheld.

OK, well, without discussing details it's pretty hard to say if this relates. The issues we were discussing were related to renaming things and the GSL. For all we know, your question was more complicated. I know it's not fun to hear, "I can't help you- call your lawyer," but sometimes there are questions that you need a lawyer to answer. It's not really fair to say that because someone couldn't help you on a different issue, no one from the company will help anyone with any issues.
#12
epochgames
Jun 19, 2008 17:28:56 Well, for fun, here is the c/p answer from Wizards in regards to the specific questions. Now, if you know someone else there who can give you a specific answer, that's great--but, get it in writing.

Questions sent to Wizards

Is it possible for a member of your staff to clarify two issues in regards to the GSL?

1. If since the GSL prohibits redefining any SRD 4E Reference, someone wanted to create a new race called Wonder Elf, they would be allowed to do so in compliance with the GSL. This would be a new race, with a new write-up, but contains the word "Elf," although it is not referring to the "Elf" as presented in the SRD. It is instead defining "Wonder Elf."

2. If, in conjunction with a GSL product, someone releases a class called the "Hyper Mage" and WotC later releases a product and includes their own class called "Hyper Mage," would the original distributor of "Hyper Mage" be in non-compliance with the GSL if they continued to support their definition of "Hyper Mage?" Would they be forced to recall or destroy product, place a notice on their website, or something along those lines?

And, the reply (as was expected)

Wizards Default Answer
Wizards of the Coast customer service cannot provide assistance with or legal interpretations for questions related to the GSL. The webpage containing GSL information also contains the GSL FAQ, as well as other information regarding our licenses. If you require further assistance with something beyond what can be found on our website, we recommend you consult with a lawyer or other legal professional qualified to interpret such documents.

Good Gaming!

Well, I think at least most of us expected that, but it only took a minute of my time. The basic rule of thumb, I would imagine is, create something unique that you can either copyright or be pretty darn sure Wizards isn't going to copy (even as an oversight). Don't use terms they've been using for years, or have announced are going to be coming out.
#13
emwasick
Jun 19, 2008 17:32:28 Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that Customer Service is the place to go for legal questions.
#14
Kensan_Oni
Jun 19, 2008 17:34:09 I would like to point out that the poor people at Customer Service are not content managers, and are not qualified to answer questions along this nature. If you want an answer, take some time to find out who is the Brand Manager and directly send a letter to them (Who, conviently, visits these forums), or contact your lawyer for clarification.

Customer Service is not Corporate Services.
#15
zynete
Jun 19, 2008 17:51:23
The basic rule of thumb, I would imagine is, create something unique that you can either copyright or be pretty darn sure Wizards isn't going to copy (even as an oversight). Don't use terms they've been using for years, or have announced are going to be coming out.

I would also suggest that people using terms that are in folklore and such in case WotC taps into that same source later on.
#16
epochgames
Jun 19, 2008 19:35:28
I would like to point out that the poor people at Customer Service are not content managers, and are not qualified to answer questions along this nature. If you want an answer, take some time to find out who is the Brand Manager and directly send a letter to them (Who, conviently, visits these forums), or contact your lawyer for clarification.

Customer Service is not Corporate Services.

Oh no, you're absolutely right. However, the chances of you getting a direct response without an inside line are....? Anyone want to take a guess? I'll put it this way: I have had good response and no response, depending who I ask and who I ask as, and no one thus far has been willing to put anything in writing beyond reference to the GSL/SRD in any event. Just as you said: Scott and others frequent these forums. Do you think they don't see the same debate or question going on over and over? No. They see it. Why would they give one answer to someone and not to others? I could see it happening with an established relationship (personal or business), but I highly doubt anyone else is going to get an answer they're not willing to post in a public forum. Of course, I could be wrong, and would love to be proven wrong on such a case. In the meantime, I have rely on outside legal counsel, which is fine by me--it's business.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Wraith428 Jun 19, 2008 0:36:08	Trying to understand this. Hope I'm wrong but don't think I am. Let's say I want to create a world setting where halflings are desert dwelling nomads who excel at making pacts with devils. I'm essentially redefining halflings which is a not allowed by the GSL right? Would it be okay if I called them Tainted Halflings or Desert Halflings? Where is the line drawn? What if I have a race of three and half foot tall humanoids who look vaguely human but live in the desert and practice devil worship and call them Hakkins? Can I say Hakkins use the stats for Halflings (see the D&D 4E Player's Handbook)? Any help appreciated. Thanks, Wraith428
#2 hellmute Jun 19, 2008 0:58:13	halflings are desert dwelling nomads Not allowed. You cannot alter the definitions of anything within the game itself. Halflings are what the PHB and/or MM says they are and that is all.
#3 dcanderson Jun 19, 2008 1:03:01	Adding Original Material Per Section 4.1 of the GSL, you can add functions to 4E References as long as, in doing so, you don’t redefine that 4E Reference. For example, simply adding a use for the Athletics skill doesn’t redefine the whole skill, so you could create such a new use. I guess you could say something like "Halflings in the world of Y are different than other halflings because they do X" Which would be adding to the definition, not changing it.
#4 hellmute Jun 19, 2008 1:06:17	"as long as, in doing so, you don’t redefine that 4E Reference"
#5 Wraith428 Jun 19, 2008 1:07:04	So how about renaming or adding to the name. Desert Halflings or Hakkin? Wraith428
#6 dcanderson Jun 19, 2008 1:08:28	So how about renaming or adding to the name. Desert Halflings or Hakkin? Wraith428 I guess since they're a different kind of halfing, you are adding to the definition with more kinds of halfling.
#7 emwasick Jun 19, 2008 1:58:34	So how about renaming or adding to the name. Desert Halflings or Hakkin? Wraith428 Your best bet is to get in touch with someone at WotC for clarification if you plan to publish and sell anything.
#8 hellmute Jun 19, 2008 2:42:08	And they will tell you to contact your lawyer to have them clearify it for you. WotC isn't going to answer any questions as that would mean work and $$$ for their lawyers.
#9 emwasick Jun 19, 2008 3:52:01	And they will tell you to contact your lawyer to have them clearify it for you. WotC isn't going to answer any questions as that would mean work and $$$ for their lawyers. Have you experienced this or heard anyone tell you folks at WotC refused to answer questions?
#10 hellmute Jun 19, 2008 4:04:45	Yes. Not about the GSL, but was told to contact my lawyers about something. Details withheld.
#11 emwasick Jun 19, 2008 16:03:36	Yes. Not about the GSL, but was told to contact my lawyers about something. Details withheld. OK, well, without discussing details it's pretty hard to say if this relates. The issues we were discussing were related to renaming things and the GSL. For all we know, your question was more complicated. I know it's not fun to hear, "I can't help you- call your lawyer," but sometimes there are questions that you need a lawyer to answer. It's not really fair to say that because someone couldn't help you on a different issue, no one from the company will help anyone with any issues.
#12 epochgames Jun 19, 2008 17:28:56	Well, for fun, here is the c/p answer from Wizards in regards to the specific questions. Now, if you know someone else there who can give you a specific answer, that's great--but, get it in writing. Questions sent to Wizards Is it possible for a member of your staff to clarify two issues in regards to the GSL? 1. If since the GSL prohibits redefining any SRD 4E Reference, someone wanted to create a new race called Wonder Elf, they would be allowed to do so in compliance with the GSL. This would be a new race, with a new write-up, but contains the word "Elf," although it is not referring to the "Elf" as presented in the SRD. It is instead defining "Wonder Elf." 2. If, in conjunction with a GSL product, someone releases a class called the "Hyper Mage" and WotC later releases a product and includes their own class called "Hyper Mage," would the original distributor of "Hyper Mage" be in non-compliance with the GSL if they continued to support their definition of "Hyper Mage?" Would they be forced to recall or destroy product, place a notice on their website, or something along those lines? And, the reply (as was expected) Wizards Default Answer Wizards of the Coast customer service cannot provide assistance with or legal interpretations for questions related to the GSL. The webpage containing GSL information also contains the GSL FAQ, as well as other information regarding our licenses. If you require further assistance with something beyond what can be found on our website, we recommend you consult with a lawyer or other legal professional qualified to interpret such documents. Good Gaming! Well, I think at least most of us expected that, but it only took a minute of my time. The basic rule of thumb, I would imagine is, create something unique that you can either copyright or be pretty darn sure Wizards isn't going to copy (even as an oversight). Don't use terms they've been using for years, or have announced are going to be coming out.
#13 emwasick Jun 19, 2008 17:32:28	Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that Customer Service is the place to go for legal questions.
#14 Kensan_Oni Jun 19, 2008 17:34:09	I would like to point out that the poor people at Customer Service are not content managers, and are not qualified to answer questions along this nature. If you want an answer, take some time to find out who is the Brand Manager and directly send a letter to them (Who, conviently, visits these forums), or contact your lawyer for clarification. Customer Service is not Corporate Services.
#15 zynete Jun 19, 2008 17:51:23	The basic rule of thumb, I would imagine is, create something unique that you can either copyright or be pretty darn sure Wizards isn't going to copy (even as an oversight). Don't use terms they've been using for years, or have announced are going to be coming out. I would also suggest that people using terms that are in folklore and such in case WotC taps into that same source later on.
#16 epochgames Jun 19, 2008 19:35:28	I would like to point out that the poor people at Customer Service are not content managers, and are not qualified to answer questions along this nature. If you want an answer, take some time to find out who is the Brand Manager and directly send a letter to them (Who, conviently, visits these forums), or contact your lawyer for clarification. Customer Service is not Corporate Services. Oh no, you're absolutely right. However, the chances of you getting a direct response without an inside line are....? Anyone want to take a guess? I'll put it this way: I have had good response and no response, depending who I ask and who I ask as, and no one thus far has been willing to put anything in writing beyond reference to the GSL/SRD in any event. Just as you said: Scott and others frequent these forums. Do you think they don't see the same debate or question going on over and over? No. They see it. Why would they give one answer to someone and not to others? I could see it happening with an established relationship (personal or business), but I highly doubt anyone else is going to get an answer they're not willing to post in a public forum. Of course, I could be wrong, and would love to be proven wrong on such a case. In the meantime, I have rely on outside legal counsel, which is fine by me--it's business.