Step 1: Release the best tactical RPG ever
Step 2: Convert the best campaign setting to it
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit
Seriously, if this means I get to pick up my old Earthdawn books without having to wade through the awful Earthdawn system again, and if it means that all the players I'm already training to play 4E won't need to learn an entirely new system to join my Earthdawn game, that means that every little faults I found with 4e and the GSL are entirely forgiven.
Commence drooling in anticipation.
http://www.ageoflegend4e.com/
Step 1: Release the best tactical RPG ever
Step 2: Convert the best campaign setting to it
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit
Seriously, if this means I get to pick up my old Earthdawn books without having to wade through the awful Earthdawn system again, and if it means that all the players I'm already training to play 4E won't need to learn an entirely new system to join my Earthdawn game, that means that every little faults I found with 4e and the GSL are entirely forgiven.
Commence drooling in anticipation.
I wasn't familiar with Earthdawn at all, but in reading about it, it seems to me the magic and skill test systems are some of the coolest features of Earthdawn. I wonder to what extent they can keep them intact in 4E?
It hadn't occured to me how good a mechanical/systemic fit 4e makes for ED. Not perfect of course, but really really good. I can see this working out very well.
I used to play Earthdawn back when it was still published by FASA (around 1993?). The system was actually very good for the times. At least, far better than FASA's other hit, Shadowrun (good setting; horrible probability system).
It was an extremely evocative setting, with very distinct an interresting races to play aside from the classic human, dwarves, elves and orks.
Earthdawn has classes that could easily be made into 4thEd classes. Each PC could dabble a bit in the abilities of other classes, kind of like 4thEd's current multi-classing.
In Earthdawn, every PC is a magic user. As they gain experience, they learn and improve "disciplines", very much like 4thEd's powers but with a clearly magical flavor, even for the martial types. Most of these disciplines (IIRC) were usable at-will, however.
Earthdawn's setting is also very "points of light", as the civilized races have just re-emerged from massive, warded, underground cities after the world was ravaged by out-of-control magic and powerful extra-dimensional entities (the Horrors). Civilization is just beginning to re-assert itself, and not all the Horrors have left. It's a dark and brutal place.
This is one 3rd party product I'll be watching.
BTW, RedBrick, they only do PDFs, right?
BTW, RedBrick, they only do PDFs, right?
No, also print on demand, both Softcover and Hardcover.
The system was actually very good for the times. At least, far better than FASA's other hit, Shadowrun (good setting; horrible probability system).
Talk about damning with faint praises. ;)
Shadowrun was basically my main game. We house ruled away most of the problem stuff (i.e. all my deckers were NPCs :P). I was happy when I heard about SR4.0, especially when all the geekrage about it being 'dumbed down' erupted (gee... deja vu). Problem is, unlike WotC, FanPro chickened out and kept pretty much all the worse sacred cows intact. Which means SR4 is barely better than previous editions. At least the fluff changes to deckers was good. Having the Matrix based off old BBS technology made the game a tad dated. :P I was happy to see WotC actually rip out the crap of the old system instead of fearing the nerdrage and backing off on some stuff that really should go, like they did with 3.0.
Anyway, Earthdawn was a great setting saddled with crap mechanics. I think FASA has a history of that.
I used to play Earthdawn back when it was still published by FASA (around 1993?). The system was actually very good for the times. At least, far better than FASA's other hit, Shadowrun (good setting; horrible probability system).
BOOOOO
Earthdawn, Shadowrun and Battletech where my bread and butter rpgs back then.
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I still have some of my older gamers asking about that game, it was an oldie and goodie.
BOOOOO
Earthdawn, Shadowrun and Battletech where my bread and butter rpgs back then.
-------
I still have some of my older gamers asking about that game, it was an oldie and goodie.
Oi!
I did not say I did not play Shadowrun. I did. In fact, playing Earthdawn, Shadowrun (editions 1 through 3) and some classic Battletech is what we did while AD&D 2ndEd passed us by.
What I mean is that SR's probability system was completely f***ed-up. Remember those buckets of d6s you had to roll, trying to get x successes? Do you remember, if you were the GM, that you had to fudge the dice regularly, especially if the PCs were high level? Here's what happens, in terms of probs:
This system works like a binomial probability distribution (look it up in Mathworld or Wikipedia). You roll n dice and each has a probability p of success and you want k successes.
The more dice you roll, the more you reduce the variance of possible results (nb. of successes). You get less randomness, if you will. This means that at high level, tasks are either trivially easy, or extremely hard, with almost nothing in the middle. Same goes with firefights: your high level street sam can survive being shot by a lot of weapons, but the one that will damage him will completely vaporize him. Unless the GM fudges a lot.
Despite that, we liked SR very much, especially the fantasy-cyberpunk setting. But when D&D 3rdEd came out, we tried it, for a change of pace, and liked it enough that we hardly played SR or ED anymore. Then last year, we dusted off the old SR books and the old PCs and "stuck it to the Man" one last time. Ugh! With years of perspective, the horror of the system hit me like a ton of brick.
I stand by what I said: great setting, horrible probability system.
Oi!
What I mean is that SR's probability system was completely f***ed-up. Remember those buckets of d6s you had to roll, trying to get x successes? Do you remember, if you were the GM, that you had to fudge the dice regularly, especially if the PCs were high level?
That's because you as the GM were supposed to regularly let the players do the stupid things that they planned so that you could have Mr. Johnson screw them over and kill them then they'd have to create new characters, there by never having high level PC's. :D
System was intuitive and easy to understand(once you deleted other game systems from your mind ;) )
It was a sad day for my group when FASA gave up on Earthdawn. We went on to other systems for a while, D&D, Deadlands(hellon earth), BESM, Alternity and what not. When Wizkids gave the license to Livingroom games we rejoiced. but they didn't put out much new material, so back to 3rd edition for us. When Redbrick got the license as well, we were more cautious this time. They've had the system for what almost 5years or so, and where is their 'new' products? Oh yeah they haven't put out actual new products, just remade the already published books and have done 'premade adventures'
At least Living Room Games came out with new product.My only beef with both Livingroom games and Redbrick is:
Both companies say they have fulltime 'actual jobs' and the game is their 'labor of love', but(this is what gets my riled up) both companies have their fingers in multiple products.
Living Room Games : has 4 different systems they do Earthdawn, Capcom world tournament, complete mafia, digital burn (though they haven't done anything lately, seem to be dead afaict)
Redbrick: Earthdawn, Fading Suns, Blue Planet, Equinox, and Age of Legend.
Surprising that they don't actually put out much isn't it.
* Eberron
* Forgotten Realms
* Amethyst
* Earthdawn
Fortunately I'm sensible and won't buy the book settings until I'm prepared to play in it (well, except for Forgotten Realms, but that's because I like the setting an awful lot ;)). Hopefully WotC will release a whole bunch of settings that I'm not only unfamiliar with, but not overly interested in (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Mystara, Al Quadim). If they release settings like Dark Sun and Spelljammer/Planescape then I'll be in trouble ;)
don't know anything about Earthdawn. Whats the appeal?
Appeal? Depends on your play style.
This is a good place to start.
What I like about ED is:
Dragons are to be feared. Be afraid, very afraid.
Cosmology ..none you get Astral Space and that's it. Be afraid, very afraid of going there unless completely prepared for it.
No Deities or clerics
It's a Dark High Fantasy setting. I'm a fan of High Fantasy over the low magic, low fantasy settings
This makes me seriously happy bringing my Favorite Setting, to a system that is fast becomeing one of my favorites. My group just ended a year and a half earthdawn Classic Campaign last november. And most of them were clamoring for more, I just needed a break from running... Now with this comeing up.. Yay:D :D :D :D :D :D
No Deities or clerics
The Passions are near gods and they may make the cleric fit with them (I'd prefer not but it might be done).
Be afraid, very afraid of going there unless completely prepared for it.
Or casting a magic spell without the proper precautions.... you may receive the attention of something you don't want.
Personally I want my to make my Windling trollslayer again. Also the Blood Elves, man I loved to hate those bastards.
This is going to give Marking a whole new meaning.
Hah!
The Passions are near gods and they may make the cleric fit with them (I'd prefer not but it might be done).
Imho quaestor and lightbringer (I know, the latter is something different :P ) would probably best be implemented with a "multiclass only" class.
Or casting a magic spell without the proper precautions.... you may receive the attention of something you don't want.
I'd make spell matrices implements for casters with an added side effect. Not only would casting a spell through your implement not draw attention from any possibly nearby lurking horrors, it also could prevent the damage using raw magic does (perhaps something like 1HP per power level?).
At first, spell matrices could only hold at-will powers and one encounter and one daily power. At 11th level they gain an additional encounter and daily slot, and again at 21st level. Then there could be some feats to further boost your matrices, like providing additional slots or giving other bonuses.
Personally I want my to make my Windling trollslayer again. Also the Blood Elves, man I loved to hate those bastards.
There's an already quite good (inofficial) conversion PDF around on the AoL forums. IIRC, it's somewhere in the "for players" section.
I'd make spell matrices implements for casters with an added side effect. Not only would casting a spell through your implement not draw attention from any possibly nearby lurking horrors, it also could prevent the damage using raw magic does (perhaps something like 1HP per power level?).
At first, spell matrices could only hold at-will powers and one encounter and one daily power. At 11th level they gain an additional encounter and daily slot, and again at 21st level. Then there could be some feats to further boost your matrices, like providing additional slots or giving other bonuses.
I was thinking making it run with the ritual system. Unless they toss the Wizard, Necro, Elementalist, (think there is a fourth one) some stuff to compensate for the reduced powers.
Depending on how the GSL affects the mechanical side the Powers could represent the Talents of all professions, but they might turn the Spells of the Spellcasters into the Powers and make their Talents into Rituals (1e Earthdawn here I'm referring to, didn't play it after FASA went under).
I was thinking making it run with the ritual system. Unless they toss the Wizard, Necro, Elementalist, (think there is a fourth one) some stuff to compensate for the reduced powers.
Illusionist. ;) Also, it should technically be "nether", not "necro". :P
While 4E's ritual system basically fits magic spells of circle 11+ almost perfectly, I'm not so sure about the lower circle spells. Many of them just beg to be made powers (fireball anyone? :D ).
Depending on how the GSL affects the mechanical side the Powers could represent the Talents of all professions, but they might turn the Spells of the Spellcasters into the Powers and make their Talents into Rituals (1e Earthdawn here I'm referring to, didn't play it after FASA went under).
All disciplines get (IIRC) around 36 talents during their career through all 15 circles. Not every character of a given discipline has every talent (at least never in the games I played *shrug*), therefore I don't think it's necessary to give all AoL classes exactly that many powers. Several of them can probably be made into feats.
Example
AIR DANCE [WARRIOR]
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Wis 13
Benefit: If you moved at least 2 squares since your last turn, you gain a +4 feat bonus to Initiative for your next turn and all movement you make this turn ignores difficult terrain.
Special: If in any turn you use Air Dance your Initiative is 10 or more points higher than your target's initiative you can make an additional basic melee attack against your target at the end of your turn.
Illusionist. ;) Also, it should technically be "nether", not "necro".
Just shows you how good he was, maybe me forget about him and believe the nethermancer was a necro... thats smooth.
My guess is that air sailor, archer, beastman, cavalryman, sky raider, scout, swordmaster, thief, troubadour, warrior and weaponsmith talents are "just" translated directly into powers of appropriate level.
Well it should be interesting to see how they divide up the Talents into Encounter/Daily Powers as most of them (if the Illusionist stops tricking me) where basically always on.
don't know anything about Earthdawn. Whats the appeal?
With respect to 4E specifically, I'd say a big part of the appeal is that Earthdawn is a better setting, fit-wise, for D&D than any of the currently existing D&D settings.
I love the Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, etc. but they really don't work that well, to me, as 4E settings. One easy example: a single epic-level caster is just not a continent-dominating wrecking ball anymore in 4E, yet, because it was in previous editions, the stories/feel/logic of all the old D&D settings are based in the premise that it is.
Compare that with Earthdawn, a setting in which all the classes always were on a fairly even power keel (much like 4E), most of the races had some cool special abilities beyond the scope of most 3E races (much like 4E), all classes even the fighters have powers based in magic (much like 4E... I mean, okay, we say the fighter's powers have a martial source, but they're doing things frequently that defy the laws of physics, whereas 3E fighters weren't so much), the world is ancient and yet largely unknown (much like 4E's default assumptions), civilization exists only as a few points of light (again like 4E).
I wouldn't say 4E is in any way a copy of old-school Earthdawn mechanically, but I would be a little surprised if at least one member of the 4E design team didn't play ED at some point and like, if not the mechanics, the fluff and some of the general concepts. There are just so many similarities.
Just shows you how good he was, maybe me forget about him and believe the nethermancer was a necro... thats smooth.
Don't mess with illusionists. They'll pwn you, and then make you forget that they pwned you. :DWell it should be interesting to see how they divide up the Talents into Encounter/Daily Powers as most of them (if the Illusionist stops tricking me) where basically always on.
That's one of those things I called "necessary abstraction". ;) Similar how you need to split 1 circle into 2 levels (which on the other hand works rather nicely). Anyway, for the disciplines I mentioned I think it will be rather easy.
The basic weapon talents like Melee Weapons (Sky Raider, Troubadour, Warrior, ...) or Missile Weapons (Archer, Thief) are represented by basic attacks (Str vs AC respectively Dex vs AC). The fact that heroes get to include 1/2 their level (and gain levels in the first place) makes them pretty badass compared to your common Joe Average.
Some talents, like Tracking (Beastmaster, Scout) or Silent Walk (Thief, Scout) are basically already skills (Perception respectively Stealth). As for the "hero bonus", the same argument as with the basic weapon talents. Adding 1/2 level could be seen as the same as investing ranks into it. Also, Skill Focus helps upping even more, and with additional feats (perhaps "Improved Skill Focus") that allow something like always take 10 if the skill is associated with your discipline/class it pronounces a certain class's dominance in a certain area.
Some talents, like Mimic Voice (Troubadour) or Momentum Attack (Sky Raider) are probably best implemented as feats that either extend skills (Mimic Voice: Bluff), or grant some combat bonus (Momentum Attack: treat your current weapon as high crit, or something like that).
Some talents, like Mystic Aim (Archer) or Anticipate Blow (Warrior) are already basically At Will powers. These talents are pretty basic and while strong, are not too strong to be used all day long (assuming a reasonable translation to 4E mechanics, of course ;) ).
Some talents, like Called Shot (Archer, Swordmaster) or Flame Arrow (Archer) are best reserved for Encounter powers. They are strong and signature abilities that can be very impressive and powerful, but while they are strong and effectful they are not likely to be dominating in that combat.
Some talents, like Wood Skin (Warrior), True Shot (Archer) or Fireblood (Sky Raider), can easily be converted into Daily powers. They either have an effect that's already lasting basically the whole day, have such a steep cost (Karma) that you wouldn't want to use it multiple times before being able to restock your Karma pool, or provide a huge bonus in combat that'd be seriously unbalancing if allowed each encounter.
Some talents are obviously of utility purpose, like Direction Arrow (Archer) or Temperature (Elementalist). Those are of no direct use in combat, and with slightly modified mechanics (higher range, longer duration, etc) they can work reasonably well as daily powers while still preserving the flavor of the discipline.
I wasn't into RPGs when Earthdawn was first released (being five years old at the time), so my only knowledge of it was from seeing a book one of my high school teachers brought in after he heard us talking about D&D. The fluff was some of the best I've ever seen, but I never got a chance to try the game out. Now I will.
I think this will be a great setting to bring under the 4E rules.